Problems that men have to deal with

[RandV80]

I love this lady.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yKrzHAGj2c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MxS7A5nws

Though stuff like that is what makes me roll my eyes at gendered expectations for dress, especially as it pertains to men in western culture. It's all dependent on the current culture, what would be considered too feminine for men now used to be in style.

Meh, regardless of how we got here women+fashion=insanity. People should be able to wear what they want and a sense of fashion to a certain degree is an elusive but admirable trait, but the simplicity and utilitarian nature of the common male dress should be cherished.

Be honest with yourself, if you were living with a guy you wouldn't really want to share that closet & dresser space 50/50 would you? In my relationship ship we're looking at probably an 80/20 split, and lets not even bother getting into bathroom & shower space!

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

snip

You ask which definition of feminism gave the following quotes. Perhaps you could help answer the question by crediting who you are quoting.

That's really my bad, I thought I'd put them in. The answers are, Robin Morgan, Valerie Solanas, Andrea Dworkin, Susan Brownmiller and the Wikipedia page for the Duluth Model in that order.

Found your answer:

Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that focuses on the hypothesis of patriarchy as a system of power that organizes society into a complex of relationships based on the assertion that male supremacy oppresses women. Radical feminism aims to challenge and overthrow patriarchy by opposing standard gender roles and oppression of women and calls for a radical reordering of society.

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism
The neutrality of the page is in dispute though

Classified as Radical/second-wave feminist:
Robin Morgan, your first quote-from (I am not quite sure I have not been able to track down a definitive source.)
Andrea Dworkin, third quote-from Pornography: Men possessing Women, Dworkin 1979 [P.48]
Susane Brownmiller, fourth quote-from http://www.susanbrownmiller.com/susanbrownmiller/html/against_our_will.html

Not Classified, though affiliated (by my own assessment):
Valarie Solanas, Your second quote-from SCUM Manifesto, Solanas 1967 [P.1]
the Duluth Model, fifth quote-from Criminal Investigation (8th ed.), Bennett,Hess 2006 [P. 281]

 

[mecegirl]

Be honest with yourself, if you were living with a guy you wouldn't really want to share that closet & dresser space 50/50 would you? In my relationship ship we're looking at probably an 80/20 split, and lets not even bother getting into bathroom & shower space!

I don't have that many clothes, and my dress style is generally simple(mostly solid colors and graphic prints, but rarely anything frilly), so I might not be the right woman for that question. Of course I don't work in a profession where a lot of dressy clothing is necessary, so that may be why I never got into the habit as an adult. But in general a t-shirt and jeans, or a simple dress works for me. I do have a lot of jewelry and hair products to a separate sink would be a must.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Snip

Snip

I'm going to ignore the fact that the majority of both of those responses were more personal attacks than actual arguments and try to glean your argument from it.

"Men have problems as big or bigger than women's problems. Stop cramping our style with your 'feminism'."

Now I don't deny men have problems. Everyone has problems, men included. The reason I even posted here in the first place is because a common trend I see is men regaling the world with tales of masculine woe without actually doing anything about it.


You want to be taken seriously about rape? Stop joking about it with your buddies.
No, as one of you so blithely pointed out, jokes do not cause rape, but they do normalize it. If you joke about something it makes it colloquial and familiar which both makes it easier to perpetrate and harder to talk about because you've minimized it in your mind and the minds of those around you by trivializing it.

Prove it.

And I know it's anecdotal but my experience says the opposite. Making a topic less taboo to joke about makes it less taboo to talk about seriously.

 

[Baron Teapot]

One in every two men will get cancer in their lifetime. We do focus a lot on breast cancer, and fail to realize that this money is not pooled for all cancers; charities must compete with one another, and this is insane; they're all aiming for the same thing - a world without cancer.

To me, a true man is someone who endures, without ever giving up. True men work hard to achieve or protect that which they love. The difference between a man and a child is that a man does, while a child talks about doing. It may seem like a vague definition, but I don't limit masculinity to certain superficial traits; you can be a strong man regardless of your sexuality, build, height or outward appearance. What matters is your character, for a man stands by his convictions.

That's my idea of manliness, and it's what I try to remember. I don't feel ashamed to discuss my feelings because I'm not afraid of them. I'm not afraid to order so-called girly drinks because I'm comfortable with my sexuality. I don't need to convince other men that I'm masculine enough - such things are inconsequential.

 

[Frankster]

snip

You're going to just ignore the content of our posts full stop and build a nice looking strawman because it's convenient for your internal narrative to do so and might even have forced you to address the uncomfortable truth that I (leaving the other poster out of this, we ain't a tag team) might actually have had some valid points in between the rhetoric. I suppose it's easier to just call the person your arguing with a big meany.

You say you want to attempt to glean arguments from my posts but I don't know how much clearer I can be with you:

You keep projecting attitudes onto people that they don't have and never even hinted they had all because of your own stereotypes and an agenda unrelated to the topic at hand. You are walking around in a thread about guy problems saying that they should basically shut up and talk about womens problems instead cos they always have it worst (what is the original name of this Gaza argument? Fallacy of relative privation? W/e, point being that it's the basis of your posts). As I said you probably wouldn't approve if someone walked into a womens problems thread, or a transpersons thread, telling others to put a sock in it cos x has it worst and they should instead talk about x despite thread having nothing to do about x. Oppression olympics isn't the main topic here but by god, you certainly try your hardest to make it about that and in our conversations so far have been consistently using it as a smokescreen.

I mean shit what is the argument you say you're gleamed?

"Men have problems as big or bigger than women's problems. Stop cramping our style with your 'feminism'."

Except that is not it and never has been anything else then a strawman you keep throwing at my face. I thought this part was pretty clear: "And who the fuck said that in this thread? Who's the person here saying men have it worst then women?"

Also again, you project. You don't know what the fuck my opinion is regarding feminism ¬¬
Or my general opinion on gender issues for that matter.

I'd rather you make personal attacks on me tbh then keep being this evasive or shoving opinions into me I don't have and never ever had in my life.

"The reason I even posted here in the first place is because a common trend I see is men regaling the world with tales of masculine woe without actually doing anything about it."

Cool story that totally justifies shitting up a thread with unrelated topics and opinions because you have a chip on your shoulder even if you can't point to a single example in this thread of a poster acting the way you describe. If anything the trend is more towards the opposite.

I don't know how I got dragged into the rape topic or the other stuff you bring up, let alone how you're able to infer my attitudes on those topics. I'll be polite and assume they are purely addressed at WhiteNachos. Then again it is consistent with how I'm accusing you of projecting your very particular viewpoints onto people regardless of their actual stances and using these long winded statements on general gender issues as a smokescreen.
Ok I'll keep this in mind for my next paragraph then.

Being trans doesn't mean you're an authority on men and women worldwide anymore then you're an authority on men and women in just your home country. Or even just trans people for that matter, though of course you would certainly be able to relate to their stories easier then someone like me.
You've lived a life with a particular viewpoint and challenges unique to your situation and person, you are an expert on yourself, nothing more. This is something that goes for a lot of people it's true (in this thread mr "im 30 years old and once you're 30 this shit doesnt matter!" or mr "id hate to deal with other guys feelings" comes to mind, nevermind that in my time working in a mental health clinic older males well over 30 were consistently amongst our most problematic cases) but you're the one I'm arguing with atm.
You don't know jack shit about me or my life or most people you stereotype and you being trans, female, male or a friggin extraterrestial doesn't change that.
And no I don't mean that in a "i got it sooo bad man, weep for me" way but in the sense that I lived an atypical life it seems and find it hard to relate to a lot of the male stereotypes thrown around. Ex: I've only ever once in my life been in a posse of male friends, otherwise most of my friends have always been female and I've always just seemed to befriend women easier for w/e reason. The only people I know who make rape jokes and laugh about them are women, and they are anti feminists so I doubt me telling them off about it is going to be effective and tbh I don't think I should be policing them anyways, I rather work on my own behavior. Actually it's funny because the trans people I know wouldn't agree with what you said and one trans friend in particular has the most wicked sense of humor of anyone I know, but then again I have no idea if they or you are more representative of the average transpersons view on this topic and honestly, it shouldn't matter in the first place if you were making good arguments, which you ain't. To avoid further hurt feelings on a rather delicate topic I'll end it on that but I really do find your stance extremely arrogant.

"In closing (...) to campaign-level slander."

In closing I feel based on our interaction in this thread that you're somewhat of a hypocrite whose actions and statements are at odds with some of the high ideals you preach and would like others to live up to, and have a tendency to stereotype and use your personal experiences as indisputable gospel. I would have liked to express this as something else then a personal attack but don't see how I can, its not your feminist ideals that I'm disagreeing with after all but the way YOU personally act and there is no easy way to sugarcoat it that I can see.

I guess me and you just ain't meant to get along. All right buddy I'll leave you be, this back and forth went nowhere and just clogs up the thread. I hope it at least provides some lulz to others.

 

[Suhi89]

snip

You ask which definition of feminism gave the following quotes. Perhaps you could help answer the question by crediting who you are quoting.

That's really my bad, I thought I'd put them in. The answers are, Robin Morgan, Valerie Solanas, Andrea Dworkin, Susan Brownmiller and the Wikipedia page for the Duluth Model in that order.

I want to repeat, I have nothing against feminism as a whole. I think advancing the rights of women is a fantastic cause. I just don't think that feminism is particularly interested in advancing the rights of men. I don't it has to, any more than the gay rights movement needs to advance the rights of straight people, but it's disingenuous to suggest that feminism is about helping men as much as women and that only through feminism can men's issues be solved, or that feminist issues and men's issues overlap entirely on the Venn diagram.

The quotes just go to show that at least part of the feminist movement is in fact anti-male and that maybe it's fair that men want their own organisations to work for them, especially given the hostility bringing up men's issues in many feminist spaces will bring.

I think part of the problem is that you are arguing against people that can't argue against you. Robin Morgan is 73. Valerie Solanas is dead. Andrea Dworkin is dead. Susan Brownmiller is 78. Do you even know of any contemporary "anti-male" feminist examples? Or any contemporary feminists at all? I'm only asking since you seem willing to discuss the topic. Because every time "anti male" feminists are brought up its either dead White women, old White women, or boogywomen from tumblr.

I don't see it as a problem because I'm not arguing against feminism in general, I'm pointing out that there is a least part of the feminist movements that is explicitly anti-male. I don't hold that against mainstream feminism, but the post I was replying to claimed that the Venn diagram for men's issues and issues feminism cares about overlap completely.

The problem I have with the argument that men who have problems should turn to feminism is that it doesn't usually help them in their situation. If their victims of domestic abuse, it won't help them to read those quotes above. If they try to post their problems on somewhere like r/feminism, they're likely to get shouted down or banned. Feminist organisations such as Women's Aid campaign against giving more resources to male victims of DV (probably because they're scared that the resources for those victims will come from their own funding).

So again, I'm behind feminism, I think it's goals are good but I think any help that it brings to men is as a side effect rather than a major goal and it's unhelpful to tell men who need help that feminism is the answer.

In terms of contemporary feminists, the only feminists I read are either on forums like this one or above the line on websites like the Guardian. I find them to be a mixed bag. Some come across as at the very least hostile to men, whereas others I agree with almost completely.

I'd be happy to check out any suggestions you'd like to make.

 

[TransGamer]

This thread is adorable and I can't believe I didn't find it sooner.

 

[Dizchu]

It's pretty frustrating when discussion about men's problems devolve into "feminists hate men" and "men have it tough because feminists think it's a crime to be a man/are trying to make men more effeminate". It's horrible because men actually have as many problems as women, but you get these same men complaining about the incoming "matriarchy" or whatever and making all men's problems look like a joke as a result.

It's pretty tragic to be honest.

Not to say it doesn't happen with women too, once a woman claims to have PTSD from internet trolling that kinda gives the impression that women are privileged idiots (to those that wish to paint with broad strokes).

 

[ACman]

When I do have a "girly" drink im like "damn this shit is tasty"

I know all my guy friends are hella jealous whenever I rock up with a flirtini or a strawberry daiquiri.

That shit is delicious.

Damn kids. The only good girly cocktails are Amaretto Sours and Sunburnt Senoritas. Or if you have to go the blended fruit daquiri route... go mango. Strawberries are for ice cream.

 

[Riot3000]

snip

I cosign with Theodora that the current society is still very entrenched in keeping traditional male gender norms intact.

In my view i can not take the we are living in a "hyper feminized society" comment seriously I believe society is still adamant about traditional male roles and how they interact with females.

This is why the whole feminist are attacking "masuclinity" or making men more effeminate is ridiculous because like Theo mentioned most "feminist" are good for shaming guys the stray from the masculine ideal just not with words like "man up".

Again this is trying to turn into a left vs right thing but for and maybe some others who feel this way all comes off like ending of Animal Farm no difference what so ever.

 

[Theodora]

snip

I cosign with Theodora that the current society is still very entrenched in keeping traditional male gender norms intact.

In my view i can not take the we are living in a "hyper feminized society" comment seriously I believe society is still adamant about traditional male roles and how they interact with females.

This is why the whole feminist are attacking "masculinity" or making men more effeminate is ridiculous because like Theo mentioned most "feminist" are good for shaming guys the stray from the masculine ideal just not with words like "man up".

Again this is trying to turn into a left vs right thing but for and maybe some others who feel this way all comes off like ending of Animal Farm no difference what so ever.

Even as Feminists criticize "toxic masculinity," they merely ascribe Masculinities defined traits an inferior status to Femininity and its traits. HOWEVER they rarely do or take actions to oppose males behaving in Masculine ways. For example the campaign "HeForShe," is patronizingly Gender Traditionalists. Males must "stand up," and protect women. A fairly standard old fashioned trope that Feminists regularly take in without even giving it a passing thought.

The thing Feminists seem most agitated about Are gender Atypical males and gender Atypical females occupying a counter-cultural space (Geekdom). Feminists are up in arms over freely depicted sexuality and sex, men liking My Little Pony, and controlling male behavior but the central dynamic that males must enjoy a narrow dimension of activities that also happen to have economic utility towards society at large is always rigorously enforced.

The saying "Women need men like fish need a bicycle," is very telling of the mentality that has emerged and just how gender normative it is and how conservative it is. The Male in that pithy saying IS a machine. Not a living organism with intrinsic value whose life on some level deserve to be respected but an unfeeling, soulless machine whose value is measured in purely mechanical, economic, and utilitarian terms and has zero intrinsic value. The Feminist view of maleness is curiously conservative as it mirrors the Social Conservative and Trad-Con view of Maleness. Or at least of Maleness of the vast majority of males. I cannot recall it but on Fox News I believe Tucker Carlson proclaimed males "Gain value and purpose by TAKING ON responsibility for others," which seems to be the tacitly accepted view point of a great many feminists. Thus their attitudes are to create "HeForShe," and other such ideals.

Though by no means should anyone call me an Anti-Feminist. My view is that the mission of breaking Gender Norms has been dangerously compromised, however I am not fond of say MRA groups as MANY of them buy into socially conservative and highly religious mindsets. They due not question the gender dynamic or the power structures OF IT, they simply wish to shuffle who is considered on top. Much as Feminists looked at the towering prison of Gender Norms and rather then reduce the structure to rubble, simply shuffled the administrative staff and who had what.

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

When I do have a "girly" drink im like "damn this shit is tasty"

I know all my guy friends are hella jealous whenever I rock up with a flirtini or a strawberry daiquiri.

That shit is delicious.

Damn kids. The only good girly cocktails are Amaretto Sours and Sunburnt Senoritas. Or if you have to go the blended fruit daquiri route... go mango. Strawberries are for ice cream.

Do you like PIna Coladas?
And a good Bahama Mama is a mouth orgasm.
I want to try this Sunburnt Senorita, now.

And I could make you a Rumrunner or a Mai Tai, that will out right make you cry man or woman. My recipes are by far more Dan Praper, than Charlotte York Goldenblatt. By the way do not go out to the bar and order a Rumrunner or a Mai Tai, not because it seems girly, but because their recipe is garbage.

Just to brag, not much bearing on the conversation, I make the best Margaritas as well.

 

[RandV80]

Be honest with yourself, if you were living with a guy you wouldn't really want to share that closet & dresser space 50/50 would you? In my relationship ship we're looking at probably an 80/20 split, and lets not even bother getting into bathroom & shower space!

I don't have that many clothes, and my dress style is generally simple(mostly solid colors and graphic prints, but rarely anything frilly), so I might not be the right woman for that question. Of course I don't work in a profession where a lot of dressy clothing is necessary, so that may be why I never got into the habit as an adult. But in general a t-shirt and jeans, or a simple dress works for me. I do have a lot of jewelry and hair products to a separate sink would be a must.

Of course these things are never going to be a universal trait, but it's still true that the 'fashion industry' thrives on the female gender. The percentage of women that would know what's 'in season' at any given time would dwarf the men's percentage, which leads to overflowing closets! Still though, does that mean I could admire you for your masculine sensibility?

I'm just joking around here, but wanted to poke fun at the growing concept among some that the gender problems of the world are 'masculine' based while the solutions we all need are 'feminine'.

 

[Erttheking]

It's pretty frustrating when discussion about men's problems devolve into "feminists hate men" and "men have it tough because feminists think it's a crime to be a man/are trying to make men more effeminate". It's horrible because men actually have as many problems as women, but you get these same men complaining about the incoming "matriarchy" or whatever and making all men's problems look like a joke as a result.

It's pretty tragic to be honest.

Not to say it doesn't happen with women too, once a woman claims to have PTSD from internet trolling that kinda gives the impression that women are privileged idiots (to those that wish to paint with broad strokes).

I'm gonna be perfectly honest, I was really hesitant to make this thread because I was scared it was going to go down that road. A few people are acting that way, but it's thankfully a lot less than I thought it was going to be. It's really frustrating how you can't seem to have a discussion about gender without someone turning it into a "us vs them" clusterfuck.

Speaking of which, thank you everyone who kept a level head in this thread.

 

[CymbaIine]

Also, all men's problems are because they're scared of being seen as girly? All of them? Really?

Aren't they though?

I mean your phrasing trivialises it but isn't the case that most male problems (that relate directly to gender) spring from the massive pressure to fit into masculine stereotypes?

I am thinking of things like crime, car accidents, dangerous jobs, losing contact with children, mental and physical health issues.

 

[mecegirl]

Be honest with yourself, if you were living with a guy you wouldn't really want to share that closet & dresser space 50/50 would you? In my relationship ship we're looking at probably an 80/20 split, and lets not even bother getting into bathroom & shower space!

I don't have that many clothes, and my dress style is generally simple(mostly solid colors and graphic prints, but rarely anything frilly), so I might not be the right woman for that question. Of course I don't work in a profession where a lot of dressy clothing is necessary, so that may be why I never got into the habit as an adult. But in general a t-shirt and jeans, or a simple dress works for me. I do have a lot of jewelry and hair products to a separate sink would be a must.

Of course these things are never going to be a universal trait, but it's still true that the 'fashion industry' thrives on the female gender. The percentage of women that would know what's 'in season' at any given time would dwarf the men's percentage, which leads to overflowing closets! Still though, does that mean I could admire you for your masculine sensibility?

I'm just joking around here, but wanted to poke fun at the growing concept among some that the gender problems of the world are 'masculine' based while the solutions we all need are 'feminine'.

I'm not even sure how the conversation turned into this but sure, admire away.

The current industry has a major focus on woman's clothing. Which ironically enough a larger percentage of the designers are male. Why some of them don't funnel that creativity into male clothing I could not tell you. Though I have seen some interesting stuff on the men's side fashion. The thing with men's fashion is that the really cool stuff is usually pricier, or is for more formal occasions.

But my original point was that fashions change. As well as what is considered masculine and feminine, not that the solutions come from the feminine. For instance, despite the hair, tights, jewelry, and furs, no one would accuse Louis the 14th of being feminine during his day. Mostly because during his day what he wore was considered masculine. But it should be noted that it was considered masculine in part because he was the one in power. If for whatever reason he wanted to buck a fashion trend, and start a new one, while on the throne a new standard for male fashion would have been established in his country.

 

[Suhi89]

Also, all men's problems are because they're scared of being seen as girly? All of them? Really?

Aren't they though?

I mean your phrasing trivialises it but isn't the case that most male problems (that relate directly to gender) spring from the massive pressure to fit into masculine stereotypes?

I am thinking of things like crime, car accidents, dangerous jobs, losing contact with children, mental and physical health issues.

It wasn't my phrasing. The post I was quoting said "At the root of all this is the fear of being girly."

That said, there are two issues. One is something like car accidents, or committing crimes, which you can argue it encouraged by a macho culture. There is potentially legitimacy to what you're saying there. We also have to allow that some people like being macho and taking risks. I know I like driving cars very fast or taking risks I shouldn't around high cliffs. I do it because I find it fun, not because I feel like I'm adhering to a masculine ideal.


The other issue is the way society views men. It views men as second class parents for example, or more dangerous simply as a result of being male. Society often views men's issues as a joke. This isn't to do with internalised gender roles for the men affected (although it may well have something to do with the internalised gender roles of other men that perpetuate the stereotype) and so one could never say that those problems are as a result of trying to fit the stereotypes, they're a direct result of the stereotypes themselves.

So, if a man being abused by his wife doesn't seek help because he thinks it's not the manly thing to do, that could be because of a pressure to fit into a masculine stereotype. If he seeks help and can't find any, that's because of the stereotype itself. The stereotype is the cause of both problems, but only one of them could be interpreted as being because he fears being girly.

 

[CymbaIine]

It wasn't my phrasing. The post I was quoting said "At the root of all this is the fear of being girly."

That said, there are two issues. One is something like car accidents, or committing crimes, which you can argue it encouraged by a macho culture. There is potentially legitimacy to what you're saying there. We also have to allow that some people like being macho and taking risks. I know I like driving cars very fast or taking risks I shouldn't around high cliffs. I do it because I find it fun, not because I feel like I'm adhering to a masculine ideal.


The other issue is the way society views men. It views men as second class parents for example, or more dangerous simply as a result of being male. Society often views men's issues as a joke. This isn't to do with internalised gender roles for the men affected (although it may well have something to do with the internalised gender roles of other men that perpetuate the stereotype) and so one could never say that those problems are as a result of trying to fit the stereotypes, they're a direct result of the stereotypes themselves.

So, if a man being abused by his wife doesn't seek help because he thinks it's not the manly thing to do, that could be because of a pressure to fit into a masculine stereotype. If he seeks help and can't find any, that's because of the stereotype itself. The stereotype is the cause of both problems, but only one of them could be interpreted as being because he fears being girly.

Apologies about misunderstanding regarding the phrasing.

Basically I completely agree. Couple of nitpicks... I think there is more than "potential legitimacy" to the idea that men risk take etc because of macho culture. Especially younger men whose lives are shockingly, tragically, horrifyingly cheap.

Okay maybe just one nitpick, the other thing is just to say that I never meant to imply that men's internalisation of gender roles was the sole cause of their problems. Of course I recognise how society causes, perpetuates and directly benefits from this.

 

[mecegirl]

I don't see it as a problem because I'm not arguing against feminism in general, I'm pointing out that there is a least part of the feminist movements that is explicitly anti-male. I don't hold that against mainstream feminism, but the post I was replying to claimed that the Venn diagram for men's issues and issues feminism cares about overlap completely.

The problem I have with the argument that men who have problems should turn to feminism is that it doesn't usually help them in their situation. If their victims of domestic abuse, it won't help them to read those quotes above. If they try to post their problems on somewhere like r/feminism, they're likely to get shouted down or banned. Feminist organisations such as Women's Aid campaign against giving more resources to male victims of DV (probably because they're scared that the resources for those victims will come from their own funding).

So again, I'm behind feminism, I think it's goals are good but I think any help that it brings to men is as a side effect rather than a major goal and it's unhelpful to tell men who need help that feminism is the answer.

In terms of contemporary feminists, the only feminists I read are either on forums like this one or above the line on websites like the Guardian. I find them to be a mixed bag. Some come across as at the very least hostile to men, whereas others I agree with almost completely.

I'd be happy to check out any suggestions you'd like to make.

But you are arguing against feminism in general by using one small group of women, a group of women that label themselves as radical feminists, as a reason to stay away from an entire movement. You say that it wouldn't help men to read those quotes and I'm trying to think of a situation where those quotes would even come up. They aren't huge talking points in feminist circles. And honestly the only time I see them brought up is when someone needs an example of an "anti-male" feminist. They don't point to what self described feminists have said to them. They don't point to contemporary feminist writings. At the very least point to places where someone is actually likely to meet an anti male feminist so that folks can know where to avoid.

There is a reason why there are "waves" within feminism. As a movement it has evolved and grown, and it is evolving and growing right now, because it is in no way perfect. How could it be? It is made up of individuals who all have their own biases and prejudices despite a common goal. People on certain parts of the internet seem to imagine an us vs them situation. That its women vs men, feminists vs mras. But that is a false image, and only a part of the arguments had. A feminist is more likely to start a heated argument with another feminist over ways that the movement can improve than anything else.

As a movement it is not something that has one source because as a movement it is predicated on the idea that the sexes should be treated equally both in their social interactions and under the law. And that idea is not an idea that only sprung up in the minds of White middle class women in the 19th century just because they wanted to vote, and spread to the rest of the world from there. But that is, at least in the mainstream consciousness of the Western world, what people boil feminism down to. And as such it is no surprise to me that people turn to those individuals for an example of what feminism is and become disappointed. It's no surprise to me because they are only getting a part of the picture.

For example, what would be considered the first wave of feminism was incredibly racist and classist. (The second wave was a bit better but still had its failings.) Any black person would be turned off by select quotes from that time period. Then again, people don't often consider Sojourner Truth when they consider the fight for women's rights despite her own writings. Folks may remember Ida B. Wells' name, but even though she fought for suffrage her name doesn?t come up that often. Ida, like a lot of Black female leaders around her time, fought for woman's rights, as well as civil rights (Wells in particular led the charge against lynching). But they also had to fight against White feminists, because some of them were all too ready to label Black men as rapists and animals(and weren't ready to accept Black women into their ranks). Especially after Black men were ?granted" the limited right to vote before White women were. While fighting against sexual violence some White feminists were perpetuating a sort of sexual violence. They were ready to falsely accuse Black men for rape,leading to the death and imprisonment of many black men, but unwilling to address how often Black women and men were raped during slavery. Even now women who aren't White, straight, cis gendered ,or able bodied have clashes with contemporary feminism, but they don't let that stop them from creating their own feminist literature and spaces. From reforming spaces that are hostile to them. Or from encouraging others to join the movement. The most they do is warn folks of where to avoid if they don't want to put in the painstaking work of reforming the space.

I won't say that feminism can solve all of men's problems because I don't believe that. Men will have to work towards solving a lot of their own problems simply because they know the impact of their problems the best. But where men's and women's problems intersect, like gender roles, feminism is already addressing those problems. So it makes little sense for men to be completely detached from the movement. Which is what I think that Harpalyce was getting at. I have never seen a man get shouted down in feminist spaces for talking about their own abuse. I've seen it happen for minimizing the abuse that women receive, but never for just sharing stories about their life. I'm gonna assume that its not something that you've seen that often either since you use the term ?likely? with your r/feminism example. The most I can imagine is the questions being redirected to the r/masculism subreddit, but that would only to keep a topic on track. (and since reddit was mentioned most of the feminists subreddits link to each other. So if you've found one you've found them all) For instance,there are limits to talking about sexual assault in a gender neutral way. Women are more likely to be blamed for their assault. While men are more likely to be told that they weren't assaulted at all. Jumping back and forth between two situations won't encourage a productive discussion because the focus is split. Separating the discussion will also discourage oppression olympics. Which is part of why this topic is doing a much better job at discussing men's problems than what normally happens on this board (when a thread is started about women's issues and folks try to shift the focus to men).