Harpalyce said:
I'm just going to toss a radical feminist idea in here that I'm sure will bring approximately fifteen million people down upon my head screaming at the top of their lungs:
Okay, imagine a venn diagram. One part is "problems men have to deal with" along this thread's line. Another part is "problems feminism wishes to address".
Got it? Okay, good. Now let me tell you something gamechanging:
That venn diagram is just one circle. There is complete overlap.
When you go down to the root of so many of these problems, they're all about proving masculinity. They're all about doing that TO NOT BE FEMININE - and it's about the fear of being feminine. Why? Because being feminine is bad. That's what society teaches us. Therefore only the worst sort of man would be feminine, right? So men grow up with this huge burden, and that burden is lablled Don't Be Girly. It hurts them in school. It hurts them in their daily lives. It hurts their emotional development. It hurts their relationships with people. It even might hurt their careers. It's what isolates. It's what drives people to suicide. They think they've failed this standard of Don't Be Girly, or can't find a way out that's not Too Girly. I mean, for fuck's sake, it's a demonstrable thing that men don't go to the doctor when they need to because "toughing it out" is the "manly" thing to do! Never mind what that mindset does to somebody with depression - think about the guy having a heart attack who goes "no, I'm not going to the ER, I can walk this off because I'm not a sissy". Sissy. GIRLY.
At the root of all this is the fear of being girly.
So what happens when we get rid of this archaic standard that men and women must be polar opposites? What happens when we fight to make it clear that being girly is okay too, because girly doesn't mean weak?
We take away the yardstick, and men stop measuring themselves by it. Men benefit greatly by not being constrained by this set of rules to keep them from being 'too girly'.
This is like feminism 101. I'm sure it's come up in the thread before. I'm sure it'll come up again. Other people have addressed counterarguments to this better than I have, but I wanted to at least drop this idea by here. We're allies, you guys, it just takes people stepping forward to go "you know what, you're right, these archaic gender standards are totally bullshit".
No. Sorry this argument is made an few times in this thread, and I've written this response a number of times, but I'll just try to keep it to very points.
Firstly, as you admit, there is no single definition of feminism. So which feminism. Is it the one that gave us the following quotes?
"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."
"The male is completely egocentric, trapped inside himself, incapable of empathizing or identifying with others, or love, friendship, affection or tenderness. He is a completely isolated unit, incapable of rapport with anyone. His responses are entirely visceral, not cerebral; his intelligence is a mere tool in the services of his drives and needs; he is incapable of mental passion, mental interaction; he can't relate to anything other than his own physical sensations. He is a half-dead, unresponsive lump, incapable of giving or receiving pleasure or happiness; consequently, he is at best an utter bore, an inoffensive blob, since only those capable of absorption in others can be charming."
"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it 'Her'. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination."
"Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which [strong]all[/strong] men keep all women in a state of fear"
"Domestic violence is the result of patriarchal ideology in which men are encouraged and expected to control their partners".
The last quote there is the basis of the Duluth Model. It leaves no room for male victims of domestic violence, or female victims of female perpetrators. It is a theory developed and promoted by feminists and it actively contributes to problems that real men face.
Another thing, try to discuss men's issues on a feminist forum. Try to convince major feminist organisations to campaign for better parental rights for dads or for better healthcare provisions for men. At best, you'll be told that they're worthy causes but it isn't a feminist organisation's job to fight for them. At worst, you'll be told that it doesn't matter that you're homeless, you're privileged scum and men aren't welcome in the feminist movement.
I'm actually a feminist, but that's because I care about the rights and privileges of women, and that's what I believe feminism is about. It's a worthy cause. If it helps men, for most feminists, it's a bonus. And when men do try to discuss their own issues in their own spaces? They're told to shut up because feminism is dealing with it. And when they try to bring up their issues in feminist spaces? They're told to shut up because feminism isn't about men.
I just think your post is like a conservative saying "you know the issues that the poor have and the issues that conservatives want to address? Well, if you draw a Venn diagram you'd just get one circle, because if we give tax cuts to the rich and push through massive deregulation, it will help the poor too. Ignore those conservatives who have said that the poor are all lazy bums. Ignore those conservative policies that have actively harmed you - we're all you really need." Sure, there a lots of conservatives who do care about the poor and a tax cut that mainly helps the rich may have the side effect of helping the poor too, but to present a single political view as the one answer ignoring any possible evidence to the contrary is just plain dogmatic.
Also, all men's problems are because they're scared of being seen as girly? All of them? Really?
