Problems with the new doctor

[RaikuFA]

According to gamer's favorite Anita Sarkeesian, the problem with the new doctor is that she isn't black and trans.
That is a serious problem, believe you me.

Did she say that, or are you just saying she said that? I dont like her, but I also dont like the people who use her as an excuse to be sexist.

I can believe she said that, but I can believe people could lie about her saying that too.

FemFreq's Twitter [https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/886653343493312512] and an archive'd version [https://archive.is/ZU6Ae].

I've tried writing a summary but had difficulties not letting my own biases in so that's all you're getting out of me.
And now, a gif I feel is appropriate.

Like I said, I can believe she said that, but I can believe that others use her to stay bigots. There is certainly some "taking out of context" her words.

Either way, I still hate her AND the bigots who use her as a scapegoat.

But thanks for the proof.

Agreed, this is one of those times I feel we should shame her for the stuff she says, not the other 95% of stuff.

 

[Megalodon]

They could have honestly thought this was a good idea for creative/artistic reasons. Or they could be sacrificing the quality of the show to appeal to a female audience.

Funnily enough, I don't think it's actually to appeal to a 'female audience' more likely it's to appeal to people with a specific agenda. Doctor Who appears to already have a large female audience, which it earned and maintained (insert arguments about declining show quality here) despite having male Doctors. While it's of course a small sample size, I know a lot more women who like and watch the show these days than men, and none of them thought a female Doctor was neccessary, an inherently good idea, or are particularly happy over the decision to gender flip the character.

 

[Catnip1024]

by the creators

I think the issue is, it's not the original creators. The show has been handed over to the likes of Steven Moffat, which opens up legitimate room to say things like "you're fucking up this fantasy universe with your bullshit pseudoscience". Not just in this instance, but all over the shop.

But yes, I also largely think it is fake-outrage. Doctor Who has run its course and should be wrapped up for another generation or so. But they can't accept that while there is skin left on the dead horse.

 

[Shadowstar38]

A character has been consistently male for 50 or so years of television. But now, in the age of obnoxious feminists whining about representation, the trend is broken. There are two ways to look at this.

They could have honestly thought this was a good idea for creative/artistic reasons. Or they could be sacrificing the quality of the show to appeal to a female audience.

If you've become cynical over years of entertainment media making terrible decisions for shortsighted reasons, option 2 starts looking more likely.

"It has always been so" is never a good excuse. Especially when we're talking about a character that has a history of changing every few years anyway.

That wasn't what I was arguing? I'm saying breaking a tradition for shallow reasons is equally as stupid as holding onto it for tradition's sake.

 

[La Kias]

The reason this feels iffy to me is that the change has no build up within the narrative of the Doctor's character. Yes they've shown Time Lords can change their gender but regeneration choices, especially the big ones like a full gender swap occur by choice. So the Doctor choosing to become female makes no sense as their gender identity has always been male with no hint of gender fluidity.

The Corsair was established to be gender fluid as was the General. The Master is both insane and met his future self meaning he HAD to become a woman so that too fits their character profile. But we have not seen this from the Doctor. If Capaldi's Doctor had felt uncomfortable in his skin as a man then this change wouldn't be an issue for me but we didn't get that.

There was also a line in the last series related to this that got on my goat. The Doctor says that Time Lords have evolved beyond humanity's primitive obsession with gender. That is a massive insult to all those people who have struggled with their gender identities. My identity may not matter to you but it does matter to me and that goes for everyone and I find it disgusting that the topic is treated like we're backwards thinking for taking control of who we are.

For the record I am a white, straight man but throughout school, for some reason being a nerd/geek meant I must be gay to some people, so I do understand the importance of sexual and gender identity

 

[BarkBarker]

No PhD here, all frauds anyhoo.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

The reason this feels iffy to me is that the change has no build up within the narrative of the Doctor's character. Yes they've shown Time Lords can change their gender but regeneration choices, especially the big ones like a full gender swap occur by choice. So the Doctor choosing to become female makes no sense as their gender identity has always been male with no hint of gender fluidity.

The Corsair was established to be gender fluid as was the General. The Master is both insane and met his future self meaning he HAD to become a woman so that too fits their character profile. But we have not seen this from the Doctor. If Capaldi's Doctor had felt uncomfortable in his skin as a man then this change wouldn't be an issue for me but we didn't get that.

I'd say its debatable how much of any regeneration is a deliberate choice. Judging by the various complaints two of them had over not being ginger the whole process seems entirely random. Don't think its down to how they feel about anything

There was also a line in the last series related to this that got on my goat. The Doctor says that Time Lords have evolved beyond humanity's primitive obsession with gender. That is a massive insult to all those people who have struggled with their gender identities. My identity may not matter to you but it does matter to me and that goes for everyone and I find it disgusting that the topic is treated like we're backwards thinking for taking control of who we are.

Think you've taken that the wrong way. I took it to mean Time Lords just care less about stereotypes, about people having to act certain ways because of certain labels applied to them. Here in the real world you get major pushback to people expressing genders other than the traditional two, but in imaginary sci-fi world where you're part of a race of nigh-immortal shapeshifters, to whom gender is something fairly easily changeable? They don't really give a shit, you just go ahead and be you

 

[Shadowstar38]

There was also a line in the last series related to this that got on my goat. The Doctor says that Time Lords have evolved beyond humanity's primitive obsession with gender. That is a massive insult to all those people who have struggled with their gender identities. My identity may not matter to you but it does matter to me and that goes for everyone and I find it disgusting that the topic is treated like we're backwards thinking for taking control of who we are.

Gender is really just another category humans can put themselves in. Nothing about us is tied to it. The fact that people want to strictly define what gender is and tie preconceptions to who people are is the issue. I'd expect any advanced society not have gender hold any importance anymore, because it shouldn't have had any importance in the first place.

 

[gigastar]

In my parsing of the twatter looking for shit to laugh at on this subject i acutally encountered more autism from feminists declaring this to be a victory in their war on the white supremacist cis male patriarchy than i did autism along of the 'oh the Doctors a woman now? dropped' variety.

that doesnt count the posts not addressing Whittakers appointment directly, most of those were speculating about autism becuz muh misogginy.

As for my own opinion, i do find it concerning that Whittaker identified herself as a feminist in that recent interview.

Now since the writer for Torchwood is apparently coming back for the next season, im still in. Torchwood was good shit.

But i swear i hear one joke about vaginas and im dropping the series until Whittaker is out. That shit is cringe when female stand up comedians do it, and given Doctor Who's approach to humor in recent seasons if such scenes exist then there will be a cringe compilation of it.

According to gamer's favorite Anita Sarkeesian, the problem with the new doctor is that she isn't black and trans.

Well, since Timelords can naturally change genders in their lifetime, i would tell these people that being cis or trans doesnt matter.

But then you would probably get called transphobic, because these people are fucking idiots.

 

[La Kias]

Gender is really just another category humans can put themselves in. Nothing about us is tied to it. The fact that people want to strictly define what gender is and tie preconceptions to who people are is the issue. I'd expect any advanced society not have gender hold any importance anymore, because it shouldn't have had any importance in the first place.

Then I's argue as well on the flipside of that why shouldn't it hold importance? What about it makes it unimportant. It's unimportant in the sense that I don't judge you for the way you are and in that sense yes an advanced civilisation wouldn't care about it. But you knowing who you are and that you are free to be that person is important, another mark of an advanced civilisation.

Also lore note: Gallifreyans are a binary species and therefore should have gender identity. Time Lords can change this with a regeneration but your everyday Gallifreyan who has not gone through the academy and gained the ability to regenerate cannot

 

[kitsunefather]

My concern with Doctor Who, honestly, is with Moffat's writing recently. He's tried very hard (and often very poorly) to include lines that were intended to be progressive, but felt ham-fisted or out of place. Since the introduction of Missy, however, it's been clear this is the direction they were going with the 13th Doctor.

And so, my concern with the female Doctor specifically is if the character will continue to be written as a flawed character with nuance and depth, or be written into a flawless unerring cardboard cutout.

The thing that assuages this fear is that, with the departure of Capaldi, we also have the departure of Moffat. Replaced by the show-runner and head writer for Broadchurch, who worked with this same actress to give a performance that broke my heart and left me wanting to watch it all over again.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I don't watch Dr. Who.

But!

From what I've read, it fits in fine with the universe and established lore. So. Cool?

Some people are going "omgwomanz" others are going "lolwe'retakinurnerdstuffzboiz" and I saw a lot of people taking issue with the casting and her interview about becoming the Doctor.

From the complaints, there is less emphasis on being happy to get the role, more on being happy to be a lady who is a feminist who is etc. Oh, and also the title role is cool.

Female protagonists are cool though. So...here's hoping the writing, acting, and such doesn't suck for fans of the series?

 

[Shadowstar38]

Gender is really just another category humans can put themselves in. Nothing about us is tied to it. The fact that people want to strictly define what gender is and tie preconceptions to who people are is the issue. I'd expect any advanced society not have gender hold any importance anymore, because it shouldn't have had any importance in the first place.

Then I's argue as well on the flipside of that why shouldn't it hold importance? What about it makes it unimportant. It's unimportant in the sense that I don't judge you for the way you are and in that sense yes an advanced civilisation wouldn't care about it. But you knowing who you are and that you are free to be that person is important, another mark of an advanced civilisation.

Also lore note: Gallifreyans are a binary species and therefore should have gender identity. Time Lords can change this with a regeneration but your everyday Gallifreyan who has not gone through the academy and gained the ability to regenerate cannot

Knowing who I am in terms of what? Personality? Values? My place in the world and what impact I want my actions to make? If I woke tomorrow in a woman's body, all these things would remain the same.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Knowing who I am in terms of what? Personality? Values? My place in the world and what impact I want my actions to make? If I woke tomorrow in a woman's body, all these things would remain the same.

Eh, how do you know for sure?

Personally, I'd expect there to be a change in how you see women in society, in that the strongest learning isn't as powerful as a lived experience.

 

[Parasondox]

She has a vagina. Vagina's are scary, they are dangerous. They kill people. Hell, A vagina killed my family. You know what's even scary? We all came out of one.

We must stop the vagina uprising!!!

 

[sniddy_v1legacy]

According to gamer's favorite Anita Sarkeesian, the problem with the new doctor is that she isn't black and trans.

Did you just assume her gender?

 

[Imre Csete]

Edit: Damn, wrong thread, curse you multiple tabs!

 

[Silverbane7]

from what i remember, the doctor does not have control of his regenerations. he lets them go where they will.
i remember Romana(2) chastizing him about it when she went from (mary tamm) to (lalla ward) after the key to time series. she tried more than one new image, and then settled on ward (who had played the princess astra of atrios in the last of the key to time stories)

she then went on to moan at (tom bakers) Doctor that he had no control over his form when he regenerated. he called her frivolous (ifrc) for wasting a regen on looks and told her he prefered to let random chance (and his subconsious) make of him what it would.

i think that ordinary gallifreyans then, have no control over their appearances when they regen. but TimeLords (and TimeLady's tho they have dropped that usage years ago lol) can do so if they wish.

and i allways thought the 'not ginger!' and 'STILL not ginger!' was him being glad he wasnt ginger (no, nothing wrong with being ginger, but for me, it still holds that harkonnen twinge, especialy the realy bottle looking orange that makes me think of Sting in Dune lol its the bad guy british accent they allways slap onto them that does it)

so it seems to me that they *can* choose to change, but they have to consiously make it, and concentrait to do so.

 

[Shadowstar38]

Knowing who I am in terms of what? Personality? Values? My place in the world and what impact I want my actions to make? If I woke tomorrow in a woman's body, all these things would remain the same.

Eh, how do you know for sure?

Personally, I'd expect there to be a change in how you see women in society, in that the strongest learning isn't as powerful as a lived experience.

I've had decent female role models growing up that didn't fit the mold of whatever I was suppose to believe is feminine. Women, in my mind, were my equals from the start and anything trying to teach me otherwise hadn't caught up to the 21st century.

Funny you say lived experience. I'm black, and people always want to convince me that's an important part of my identity. People who live in the same city as me go on long rants about the black struggle and oppression in America and I'm just like "Dude. Where's it at". Either I'm a ridiculous statistical outlier for avoiding discrimination or I'm completely oblivious to it while somehow still succeeding.

Back to the point though, being male hasn't factored into any decision I've ever made about how I express myself, and this is me being introspective as possible and factoring in subconscious cues.

 

[Hawki]

"Problems with the new doctor"

Alright, here we go:

-Time Lords changing genders is something introduced in NuWho, and introduced quite clumsily at that. More on that later. By the time the concept was introduced, we'd had 13 male Doctors. It's a bit late to assume that this is anything but the norm, that the Doctor is male. The show also seems to want to have its cake and eat it by stating that Time Lords don't care about gender like humans do (which is a a false equivalency, as humans can't change gender bar artificial means), but we've seen cases where the Time Lords do get caught up on it, such as the General (after going from male to female, utters "back to normal. Seriously, how do you [male Time Lords] stand the ego?"), or The Master ("is the future going to be all girl?"). There's also examples of familial terms being based on gender - Susan is unambiguously the Doctor's granddaughter (and her her grandfather), Jenny outright calls the Doctor "dad," the Doctor is River Song's "husband," etc. How do those familial terms remain relevant

-Every gender flip we've seen so far is from male to female. Thing is, I know we've had people asking for a female Doctor since at least Eleven (no idea why, struck me as asking for a female James Bond or a male Wonder Woman), but if the show really wants to go down the route of Time Lords being gender fluid in regenerations, not only is the revelation coming a bit late, but it's a revelation that has shown gender flips go in only one way. I for one was never asking for a male River Song/Rani/Jenny/Romana, and I'm not even asking for them now.

-There is, to me, a sense of agenda behind it. I really don't want to dwell on that, but let's look at this from the opposite end of the spectrum - if you want more women in TV/film/whatever, is appropriating a previous character/franchise really the way to go about it? I'll be frank, if they outright killed the Doctor off or retired him, I'd be more reciprocal to a show with a new Time Lord, because at least said female Time Lord could stand or fall on her own merits. If you want more women in media, fine, but at least put in the legwork for it. Off the top of my head, Star Wars. Like her or loathe her, Rey, while having a lot of similarities with Luke, at least had the legwork put in for her, building a character from the ground up.

Thing is, outside Doctor Who, I'm iffy of the precedent this sets. Doctor Who at least has some wriggle room for a gender flip, but when you start getting into characters that are definitively male (James Bond, Indiana Jones, etc.), what happens when the "SJWs" go for them and start demanding female takes? Thing is, I'd argue that James Bond and Indie have already had gender flips done right in the form of characters like Lara Croft and (to a lesser extent) Kate Archer. Female characters that take inspiration from male predecessors, but are still able to stand on their own legs. Or, in other words, the introduction of Lara Croft to the world didn't mean that the world stopped being able to enjoy Indiana Jones, whereas a 13th Doctor is mutually exclusive with a male one. So in the realm of agendas, no-one's served. Not the people who see the Doctor as male, nor the people who want a female Time Lord have her own show.

-There's the question of Missy, which encapsulates this point for me perfectly. Thing is, as a character, I liked Missy. As an incarnation of the Master? Eh...not so much. If anything, I feel that idea undermines the Master because not only does his redemption of sorts with Ten fall hollow now (yep, back to evil), but is it out of the question that the Doctor had other childhood friends that went bad, who'd he want to turn good? Missy being the Master is at its most poignent in the "we stab each other in the back" moment, but even then, you could have still gone with an earlier version of Missy that was already bad and get the same result. So while I'm sure I could enjoy the 13th Doctor as a character in of herself, as THE Doctor, the definitive article as it were? Not so much. Basically the problem of engagement I had with Missy, now transferred to the main character.