Protagonists and morality.

[Gxas]

So...hang on lemme get this straight.

Protagonists who kill others in videogames are only suited for being villains, and you're basing this purely on the fact they kill people? I honestly can't make sense of that. That's like saying a soldier is a villain because he fights for his home country.

Uh...duh?

They are soldiers,they are paid to kill people.Did you honestly believed they were good guys?

Your idea of morality is all kinds of fucked up.

 

[JeanLuc761]

So...hang on lemme get this straight.

Protagonists who kill others in videogames are only suited for being villains, and you're basing this purely on the fact they kill people? I honestly can't make sense of that. That's like saying a soldier is a villain because he fights for his home country.

Yes.

That is pretty much it.

You know many people do think that, right?

I do know a lot of people think that, and it's an extremely narrow mentality. The world does not operate in black and white and the same goes for morality. There is a profound difference between "killing in the name of good" and "killing for giggles."

So...hang on lemme get this straight.

Protagonists who kill others in videogames are only suited for being villains, and you're basing this purely on the fact they kill people? I honestly can't make sense of that. That's like saying a soldier is a villain because he fights for his home country.

Uh...duh?

They are soldiers,they are paid to kill people.Did you honestly believed they were good guys?

Why yes, yes I do believe they are the good guys. They are fighting for something bigger than themselves; sacrificing their own lives to protect the people and the country that they love. If you want to call that immoral, I'm going to have to agree with the guy above me and say your definition of morality is all kinds of fucked up.

 

[number4096]

So...hang on lemme get this straight.

Protagonists who kill others in videogames are only suited for being villains, and you're basing this purely on the fact they kill people? I honestly can't make sense of that. That's like saying a soldier is a villain because he fights for his home country.

Uh...duh?

They are soldiers,they are paid to kill people.Did you honestly believed they were good guys?

Your idea of morality is all kinds of fucked up.

You know what else kills people and gets paid for it?Hitmans.

Now try to make these pass as good guys.Both soldiers and hitmans kill people for money.

 

[TheNumber1Zero]

"Sometimes it makes the player fell better about it."If they fell bad about it,why don't they play cooking mama instead?

Oh, they want to kill things, feeling like it's for the greater good just adds to it a little

To me,if you murder mercilessly,you are a villain.Why would saving something always involve destroying another?

It's natural to destroy one thing to save another thing, it sort of fits into that whole "Survival of the fittest" thing

Why is it traditional to be a maddened murder-machine on crack?How about saving the world through diplomacy and sharing?Why are violent video games displaying good guys as player characters when the appeal is violence?

Because Game companies decided that gamers wnated massive amounts of violence, and it seemed to work. Since violence sold games at one point, they decided to add more violence as time went by. I don't think too many people want to spend a game playing in the Korean war, but I am pretty sure they would want to spend it in the Peace Talks even less.

Imagine a bunch of nuns with chainsaws and you will understand why it baffles me.

Spoiler: You mean this?

It is quite odd, but has already been done in it would seem.

 

[Delock]

Perhaps its because people don't want to play games where you are basically a 2 dimensional character (or an a$$hole) and then find themselves hating said character and not being given the option to change to a more likeable character who you might actually have a conversation with without him killing everyone in the room because he wanted to get back at the owner of a dog that broke his windshield when he ran it over.

In other words maybe people want to be able to say that their virtual avatar of themselves is justified in their actions. In addition, you are then often given more for being good than evil in games (half because people like you, but half because you didn't kill them when you met).
Plus when you're told to do evil, it becomes a job.

I feel bad when I kill someone who I thought was a bad guy, but then it's one of those M. Night Shyamalan twists where I was actually being fooled by the real bad guys.

Yeah! and then your therapist turns out to be dead... oh wait.

Play Infamous and go down the infamous route.

Yeah, inFAMOUS had that horrible problem of "If you want a rewarding story, go good. If you want rewarding, kill orphans with the ragdolled body of their parents you just killed. Oh, and if you go evil, people in the game won't like you and you'll constantly be reminded of it."

As for why people buy games with good people regreting their actions: If a person kills into the triple digit counts and either doesn't think about it, or laughs, they're not a good person and you've been playing as either a psychopath who does good or a serial killer, neither of which you should really enjoy playing.
I'm guessing it really is mostly that you'll be entering into the role of that character for the game, so it might as well be someone who is more like the player, at least in the morality, to better immerse them.

 

[Gxas]

So...hang on lemme get this straight.

Protagonists who kill others in videogames are only suited for being villains, and you're basing this purely on the fact they kill people? I honestly can't make sense of that. That's like saying a soldier is a villain because he fights for his home country.

Uh...duh?

They are soldiers,they are paid to kill people.Did you honestly believed they were good guys?

Your idea of morality is all kinds of fucked up.

You know what else kills people and gets paid for it?Hitmans.

Now try to make these pass as good guys.Both soldiers and hitmans kill people for money.

You know what else kill things? Animals. They kill things. You kill all sorts of bacteria on your hands every time you wash your hands (Assuming you actually do).

Does that make you a villain?

Like I said, your morals are all sorts of fucked up. As is your grammar.

 

[number4096]

"Oh, they want to kill things, feeling like it's for the greater good just adds to it a little"

They like to kill things but want to be good guys?Are they bipolar?

 

[number4096]

So...hang on lemme get this straight.

Protagonists who kill others in videogames are only suited for being villains, and you're basing this purely on the fact they kill people? I honestly can't make sense of that. That's like saying a soldier is a villain because he fights for his home country.

Uh...duh?

They are soldiers,they are paid to kill people.Did you honestly believed they were good guys?

Your idea of morality is all kinds of fucked up.

You know what else kills people and gets paid for it?Hitmans.

Now try to make these pass as good guys.Both soldiers and hitmans kill people for money.

You know what else kill things? Animals. They kill things. You kill all sorts of bacteria on your hands every time you wash your hands (Assuming you actually do).

Does that make you a villain?

Like I said, your morals are all sorts of fucked up. As is your grammar.

I never said animals were good guys,i just wonder why people insist on playing murderous good guys,it just seems hypocritical,contradictory and bipolar.

Animals really are evil.Just look at a cat playing with a mouse instead of just killing it.If the cat was just hungry it would just eat it.It plays with it and torments because it is sadistic.

 

[StriderShinryu]

Delock's thoughts are pretty close to my own. A good guy doing bad things creates a sense of tension and conflict. A bad guy doing bad things would likely be boring because there would be no character growth and no real conflict. Even a character who is in many ways a sadistic heartless bastard like Kratos is given a backstory that involves remorse for his family and seeking revenge against the Gods themselves not because he needs it, he'd kill stuff left and right anyway, but because it makes him more interesting.

 

[Gxas]

I never said animals were good guys,i just wonder why people insist on playing murderous good guys,it just seems hypocritical,contradictory and bipolar.

Animals really are evil.Just look at a cat playing with a mouse instead of just killing it.If the cat was just hungry it would just eat it.It plays with it and torments because it is sadistic.

There really is no talking to you... I apologize for getting myself into this discussion. I didn't realize you were this stubborn.

 

[number4096]

Perhaps its because people don't want to play games where you are basically a 2 dimensional character (or an a$$hole) and then find themselves hating said character and not being given the option to change to a more likeable character who you might actually have a conversation with without him killing everyone in the room because he wanted to get back at the owner of a dog that broke his windshield when he ran it over.

In other words maybe people want to be able to say that their virtual avatar of themselves is justified in their actions. In addition, you are then often given more for being good than evil in games (half because people like you, but half because you didn't kill them when you met).
Plus when you're told to do evil, it becomes a job.

I feel bad when I kill someone who I thought was a bad guy, but then it's one of those M. Night Shyamalan twists where I was actually being fooled by the real bad guys.

Yeah! and then your therapist turns out to be dead... oh wait.

Play Infamous and go down the infamous route.

Yeah, inFAMOUS had that horrible problem of "If you want a rewarding story, go good. If you want rewarding, kill orphans with the ragdolled body of their parents you just killed. Oh, and if you go evil, people in the game won't like you and you'll constantly be reminded of it."

As for why people buy games with good people regreting their actions: If a person kills into the triple digit counts and either doesn't think about it, or laughs, they're not a good person and you've been playing as either a psychopath who does good or a serial killer, neither of which you should really enjoy playing.
I'm guessing it really is mostly that you'll be entering into the role of that character for the game, so it might as well be someone who is more like the player, at least in the morality, to better immerse them.

"To better immerse the player?"The player wants to play a game were they kill people and will pay for such a game.A foaming madman who delights in their madness is the only thing i could see them playing,seeing the premise.

 

[JeanLuc761]

I never said animals were good guys,i just wonder why people insist on playing murderous good guys,it just seems hypocritical,contradictory and bipolar.

Animals really are evil.Just look at a cat playing with a mouse instead of just killing it.If the cat was just hungry it would just eat it.It plays with it and torments because it is sadistic.

There really is no talking to you... I apologize for getting myself into this discussion. I didn't realize you were this stubborn.

I'm with this guy. I have to end this debate with you as your perception of reality and morality is so skewed and impossibly idealized it is impossible to have a realistic discussion.

 

[number4096]

So...hang on lemme get this straight.

Protagonists who kill others in videogames are only suited for being villains, and you're basing this purely on the fact they kill people? I honestly can't make sense of that. That's like saying a soldier is a villain because he fights for his home country.

Uh...duh?

They are soldiers,they are paid to kill people.Did you honestly believed they were good guys?

Your idea of morality is all kinds of fucked up.

You know what else kills people and gets paid for it?Hitmans.

Now try to make these pass as good guys.Both soldiers and hitmans kill people for money.

You know what else kill things? Animals. They kill things. You kill all sorts of bacteria on your hands every time you wash your hands (Assuming you actually do).

Does that make you a villain?

Like I said, your morals are all sorts of fucked up. As is your grammar.

Bravo. Very well arguemented. Though the grammar thing was a little under the belt Not everyone has English as their native language.

Though you made your point. I suppose it's easier to say that doing this makes you evil and doing this makes you good. But that's my problem, it's never that easy. Criminals who steal don't always steal because they enjoy it, but because they have to. Because society didn't give a shit about them in the first place etc etc. There are just too many factors to consider which makes labels like "evil" and "good" incredibly random and doesn't justify the person at all.

But as I said, most people are lazy and it's easier to have a list of things for both catagories. Do this and you're evil, do this and you're good. But it's all bullshit in the end. Perhaps that's what people are afraid of? If they don't have some moral code or list to follow, how do you know what you are? Man this got very philosophical

The discussion was about video games,why do all my discussions end up like that?Also,game developpers make violent video games because people like them and will buy for them.They are admitted sadists at this point,playing a villain just seems natural at this point.

I just wonder why someone who buys a game to kill people in it would still want to play a good guy while mass-murdering.

 

[Delock]

Perhaps its because people don't want to play games where you are basically a 2 dimensional character (or an a$$hole) and then find themselves hating said character and not being given the option to change to a more likeable character who you might actually have a conversation with without him killing everyone in the room because he wanted to get back at the owner of a dog that broke his windshield when he ran it over.

In other words maybe people want to be able to say that their virtual avatar of themselves is justified in their actions. In addition, you are then often given more for being good than evil in games (half because people like you, but half because you didn't kill them when you met).
Plus when you're told to do evil, it becomes a job.

I feel bad when I kill someone who I thought was a bad guy, but then it's one of those M. Night Shyamalan twists where I was actually being fooled by the real bad guys.

Yeah! and then your therapist turns out to be dead... oh wait.

Play Infamous and go down the infamous route.

Yeah, inFAMOUS had that horrible problem of "If you want a rewarding story, go good. If you want rewarding, kill orphans with the ragdolled body of their parents you just killed. Oh, and if you go evil, people in the game won't like you and you'll constantly be reminded of it."

As for why people buy games with good people regreting their actions: If a person kills into the triple digit counts and either doesn't think about it, or laughs, they're not a good person and you've been playing as either a psychopath who does good or a serial killer, neither of which you should really enjoy playing.
I'm guessing it really is mostly that you'll be entering into the role of that character for the game, so it might as well be someone who is more like the player, at least in the morality, to better immerse them.

"To better immerse the player?"The player wants to play a game were they kill people and will pay for such a game.A foaming madman who delights in their madness is the only thing i could see them playing,seeing the premise.

Difference being: said person does not go out and pay to kill a real person. If they were truely as mad as you say, they would be out stabbing homeless people for fun.
Allow me to ask you something first before we continue. Do you believe in good? Not good and evil since I've already seen you say you saw animals as evil. I'm asking you, do you see an opposite to that or do you feel that the world is pure evil?

 

[number4096]

I never said animals were good guys,i just wonder why people insist on playing murderous good guys,it just seems hypocritical,contradictory and bipolar.

Animals really are evil.Just look at a cat playing with a mouse instead of just killing it.If the cat was just hungry it would just eat it.It plays with it and torments because it is sadistic.

There really is no talking to you... I apologize for getting myself into this discussion. I didn't realize you were this stubborn.

I'm with this guy. I have to end this debate with you as your perception of reality and morality is so skewed and impossibly idealized it is impossible to have a realistic discussion.

I am already disturbed that some people think they can kill people and feel justified in doing so.Would you really kill someone just because someone paid you to do it?What makes you different from a soldier or a hitman then?You are scaring me if you say yes.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

You seem to have a very black and white view of the whole protagonist/hero/villain dynamic. Whereas anyone who has the slightest inkling as to how things really work knows that there is no such thing as black and white. Just because someone commits violence doesn't automatically make them a villain. Even killing people doesn't automatically make you a villain. The difference btwn. your hero and your villain is that while yes, often the hero is forced to kill many people through out the course of the given adventure, but given any other choice he probably would choose not to. Of course with these games there isn't any other choice, in some RPGs there is, but most often there isn't. Now the villain, he kills people to further his goals and doesn't particularly care if there's another option, and if he's Stupid Evil, he'll probably kill people just for the fun of it.
Now the motivations of the Player usually don't factor into the equation except in RPGs, in which case you can role-play as a villain anyway or at least an anti-hero.

 

[number4096]

Perhaps its because people don't want to play games where you are basically a 2 dimensional character (or an a$$hole) and then find themselves hating said character and not being given the option to change to a more likeable character who you might actually have a conversation with without him killing everyone in the room because he wanted to get back at the owner of a dog that broke his windshield when he ran it over.

In other words maybe people want to be able to say that their virtual avatar of themselves is justified in their actions. In addition, you are then often given more for being good than evil in games (half because people like you, but half because you didn't kill them when you met).
Plus when you're told to do evil, it becomes a job.

I feel bad when I kill someone who I thought was a bad guy, but then it's one of those M. Night Shyamalan twists where I was actually being fooled by the real bad guys.

Yeah! and then your therapist turns out to be dead... oh wait.

Play Infamous and go down the infamous route.

Yeah, inFAMOUS had that horrible problem of "If you want a rewarding story, go good. If you want rewarding, kill orphans with the ragdolled body of their parents you just killed. Oh, and if you go evil, people in the game won't like you and you'll constantly be reminded of it."

As for why people buy games with good people regreting their actions: If a person kills into the triple digit counts and either doesn't think about it, or laughs, they're not a good person and you've been playing as either a psychopath who does good or a serial killer, neither of which you should really enjoy playing.
I'm guessing it really is mostly that you'll be entering into the role of that character for the game, so it might as well be someone who is more like the player, at least in the morality, to better immerse them.

"To better immerse the player?"The player wants to play a game were they kill people and will pay for such a game.A foaming madman who delights in their madness is the only thing i could see them playing,seeing the premise.

Difference being: said person does not go out and pay to kill a real person. If they were truely as mad as you say, they would be out stabbing homeless people for fun.
Allow me to ask you something first before we continue. Do you believe in good? Not good and evil since I've already seen you say you saw animals as evil. I'm asking you, do you see an opposite to that or do you feel that the world is pure evil?

Said person can go to jail,of course they will not kill someone for fun.

As for the world being evil,we die of old age whatever we do.Animals survive by killing each other(Herbivores eat plants,who are alive.And predators eat them.).A super nova will destroy life on earth and it is impossible to stop,making life pointless.And the universe will end in a Big Rip or some other bad thing that involves the end of existance.And human history was made of bloodshed and barbary right and left.Is the world pure evil?Maybe.

 

[number4096]

You seem to have a very black and white view of the whole protagonist/hero/villain dynamic. Whereas anyone who has the slightest inkling as to how things really work knows that there is no such thing as black and white. Just because someone commits violence doesn't automatically make them a villain. Even killing people doesn't automatically make you a villain. The difference btwn. your hero and your villain is that while yes, often the hero is forced to kill many people through out the course of the given adventure, but given any other choice he probably would choose not to. Of course with these games there isn't any other choice, in some RPGs there is, but most often there isn't. Now the villain, he kills people to further his goals and doesn't particularly care if there's another option, and if he's Stupid Evil, he'll probably kill people just for the fun of it.
Now the motivations of the Player usually don't factor into the equation except in RPGs, in which case you can role-play as a villain anyway or at least an anti-hero.

I understand the hero,i don't understand the player wanting a good guy mass-murderer.The hero is forced into the situation,the player is not.If the player feels bad about it,they could play cooking mama or tetris instead.They play violent video games because they are sadists.They like hurting people.Seeing this premise,i am confused as to why they would want to play a good guy,or why a mass-murdering good guy would still be a good guy.

 

[Thaius]

Wait... what? You're saying that good guys don't kill things, so if the game involves killing things you should just be the bad guy?

Good guys have to kill the bad guys sometimes. Bad guys kill for no reason. Good guys kill the bad guys so they can't hurt any more innocent people. There's nothing wrong with that. Your point makes no sense. At all.

Good guys kill the people who are a danger to innocent people. Bad guys kill innocent people for no reason, or for bad reasons (selfishness, because they can, etc.). It's not that hard to understand.

What happens when we play as a bad guy? We get someone like Kratos: an absolute douchebag with very little reason to care about him, and by extension, little reason to care about the story. This is not a good idea.

The fact is, if you're saying all good guys who kill people are actually bad guys, you're speaking out against the vast majority of stories out there. Think about it.

EDIT: Also, murder is killing someone without just cause. Killing an innocent person. If someone is threatening the lives of innocent people, or threatening your life, killing them is not murder.

 

[ModsDeleteThisAccountPlease]

It's called an anti-hero. Great literary tool.