PS3 Hacker Raised All the Legal Funds Needed to Beat Sony in a Weekend

[Retosa]

I hope he wins, it is our right to do what we want to the PS3 after we buy it, I remember one time when I was delivering Pizza, the people were playing Super Mario All stars on their PS3. They looked like they were having lots of fun, now they can't cause Sony are asshoes

Uh, no they have no right to be playing SMAS on their PS3. No matter if the game is fun, they pirated the game and hacked the console? Thats like double the offense.

If someone pirates a game and says they're having "fun" doesn't suddenly pardon them.

The game is so old now though, if you bought it at a pawn shop the only one getting money would be the pawn store owner, the companies would no longer be getting the money 9I mean, that's the problem isn't it? With piracy for new things, the creators, like apple or microsoft, or Gearbox or whoever don't get their money?) and they bought it so I think they have every right to hack their PS3, also Hack is such a strong word, like rats, or ****

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Super-Mario-All-Stars-25th-Anniversary/dp/B004AE1V6O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298311141&sr=8-1

They have had a recent re-release on the Wii, so you can support the companies.

Yeah, except it's absolute bullshit that they didn't include Super Mario World, OR any of the newer Mario games like they EASILY could have. There was Super Mario All Stars + Super Mario World for SNES. 3 Generations ago they fit more games onto one cartridge than they put on their 25th anniversary release. If we pay for absolute crap, we'll continue to get absolute crap. If I own SMAS+SMW, I'm gonna play it on whatever the fuck I want. And no, I'm not going to pay for the 25th anniversary, BECAUSE they didn't add anything to make it WORTH it. If they had added SMW and a couple of even the GBA games it would've been worth it. If they had added SM64, it would've DEFINITELY been worth it. But they tried to rip everyone off by putting the absolute LEAST amount of effort into this they possibly could, and ripped everyone who bought it off.

Your rage is misdirected. If you're angry that they didn't include the SMW on the game, tell nintendo, not me. And also, I bought it, and I was pleased with it, especially the music CD that came along with it, which had 20 tunes on there of the mario series from the beginning to the current. If you decide to pirate the game, you're sending a message to the developers/publishers "Yeah, I wanted the game, and I wasn't willing to pay the money for it." which also gives them the mentallity of "Well, if you're not going to pay for it, why bother putting any effort into it."
Plus, If you have a copy of SMAS+SMW, you play it on the SNES, the console it was made for, or on a console that actually can play SNES games, not on whatever you want.

So you're telling me I should take my SNES and games out of storage and waste more shelf space and room in my already ridiculously cramped 1 bedroom apartment, which is fitting me my wife and my daughter, to fit all of my SNES games somewhere in the apartment rather than keep them all on a flash drive as ROMS and run things smoother and have them look nicer? Not to mention the nice added features and the removal of the antiquated and impossible to find multitap. All of this would've been easy before losing Other OS for the PS3.

Of course, I can do this with my computer, but finding and routing an HDMI cable of the right size all the way around the apartment so it doesn't make people trip would be far more effort than it would be worth, especially considering if Sony hadn't been cockmongers, it would've been EASY to do it to my PS3.

And as for my rage being misdirected, all of my rage regarding 25th Anniversary SMB IS directed at Nintendo. Yes, I will agree, I was tempted to buy it for the book, CD, and etc that came with it. But after finding out how cheap they went with the actual game I wasn't interested. Considering the fact that the Wii is already set up to play NES, SNES, Genesis, Sega Master System, N64 games, etc via their virtual console. There really were NO problems programming and porting the games. I'm sure there was a TINY bit of work, but it was pretty much "Let's just grab this SNES game and burn it to the disc." Hell, if they had put a LITTLE work in, they could've just thrown a handful of Mario games onto the disc, with about as much effort as they put into it, and made a LOT more people happy about the purchase. Hell, they could've even increased the price a bit with a couple more games and I would've paid for it! However, because it was just a SNES game, I wasn't impressed and therefore couldn't be bothered to pay for a Wii version of a game for the SNES that I already have a more advanced copy of.

I still can't believe the amount of ignorance about the term 'hacking' going on around the web.

People: Hacking is the equivalent of a guy opening up the hood of his car and taking out the engine works to to see how it works.

Another example: Hacking my phone allowed me to install a better image that greatly improved functionality, speed and functionality. In fact: many programmers start as hackers in the sense that they would find the source code and change it to suit their needs.

Any time you see someone create a custom theme for OSX or Windows or even the PS3, they're basically hacking.

Cracking, on the other hand, is the illegal practice you guys disdain. To go back to the mechanical example: cracking would involve someone breaking your car's window, ripping out and connecting the proper wires and taking off with it.

Where hackers would get past the FBI's security locks to tell them 'if I can do it, someone with bad intent will', crackers will do the same to find out the President's preferred guacamole recipe (or worse).

Hackers are oftentimes paid large sums of money to test and ensure your operating systems and browsers remain secure from large vulnerabilities crackers would use without a second though.

So, please, before dismissing GeoHotz' case as 'some idiot gaming pirate trying to get internet fame', consider what he's attempting to do: Use a very powerful machine to do things it should be able to do.

Plus, you'd have thought with all the discussions about how piracy is basically inevitable on any medium, you would think intelligent people would react in only one sensible manner: "I won't pirate games. I won't buy used games. I will encourage an industry I love."

Case in point: People pirated the Humble Indie Bundle, even though you could just get the games for free or dirt cheap.

If you are unable to think in such a way, you need to refocus your priorities and intent to the right areas. Piracy isn't a problem when more of us buy games, but having companies waste time and resources on defending something that will get pirated by people with bad intent produces games that aren't as good as they could be. This only produces restrictive DRM, games with glaring bugs and even system crashes.

So, please: Grow out of your media-fed definitions of 'right' and 'wrong' and fight piracy the right way: Buy your damned games.

Also, Moustafa Chamli, I approve completely with everything you just said.

Edit: Upon rereading the post I made that was quoted by drbarno, I can see how you thought that I was directing rage at you. I had just finished a very heated rant and I apologize for coming off heated toward you. In retrospect, I should've calmed myself down before writing that.

 

[The Lost Big Boss]

I lost any and all support for the kid when he did a rap video.

I lost any and all support for Sony when they tried to infect PCs with a rootkit and then lied about it until they were presented with the evidence. Google "sony rootkit" if you don't know what I'm talking about. Sony have a history of treating their customers like garbage. It boggles the mind that people still give them money.

You do know that Sony is split up into different sections depending on what they are making right? Sony music has no connection with this.

All this shit is going to do is enable piracy and fuck with PSN and trophy's. I hate pirates, so I am backing Sony on this.

 

[Karilas]

I hope he wins, it is our right to do what we want to the PS3 after we buy it, I remember one time when I was delivering Pizza, the people were playing Super Mario All stars on their PS3. They looked like they were having lots of fun, now they can't cause Sony are asshoes

Uh, no they have no right to be playing SMAS on their PS3. No matter if the game is fun, they pirated the game and hacked the console? Thats like double the offense.

If someone pirates a game and says they're having "fun" doesn't suddenly pardon them.

I can't see you all the way up there atop that horse.

Also, why do you immediately assume that none of them actually owned the SMAS cart, eh? I'd be willing to bet that more than one of those people in that room had actually paid for Mario All Stars in the past. So, Piracy - Not necessarily. Then there's "Oh noes! How could they tamper with a piece of hardware they paid an obscene amount of money for!?"

Well, that's just ridiculous, how is enabling the use of unlicensed software so deplorable? Really?

 

[infohippie]

You do know that Sony is split up into different sections depending on what they are making right? Sony music has no connection with this.

All this shit is going to do is enable piracy and fuck with PSN and trophy's. I hate pirates, so I am backing Sony on this.

I don't believe for a moment the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing.

I am also no fan of piracy, but this isn't about piracy. Even Sony aren't trying to claim this is about piracy. It's about being able to do what you want with the devices you bought and paid for. If it enables piracy as a side effect, that's just too bad. In fact it could even be good, it will mean there is no console on the market with games that cannot be pirated. This in turn means companies won't be able to use the excuse of piracy to drop PC support. I have no sympathy for Sony, they brought this on themselves.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

You pay for it, you agree to the rules and to abide by them. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Yeah but what if they change the rules after you bought it. LOL.

Then they send you another agreement update...

Do you get your money back if you don't agree to the update?

No, does it make it right to agree to it, then hack the console with the rules saying you can't do that, then call yourself a victim when you get in shit for breaking the rules. No. People have to realize that they own the hardware but the the software on their consoles today. Did Geohotz make the firmware updates? No. Sony did. The rules may have changed but they let you know what has changed every time. There's no excuse because the rules are in plain sight. Just because the rules change doesn't justify breaking them and showing random people how to use the means to do so, people who would abuse those tools.

 

[Retosa]

You pay for it, you agree to the rules and to abide by them. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Yeah but what if they change the rules after you bought it. LOL.

Then they send you another agreement update...

Do you get your money back if you don't agree to the update?

No, does it make it right to agree to it, then hack the console with the rules saying you can't do that, then call yourself a victim when you get in shit for breaking the rules. No. People have to realize that they own the hardware but the the software on their consoles today. Did Geohotz make the firmware updates? No. Sony did. The rules may have changed but they let you know what has changed every time. There's no excuse because the rules are in plain sight. Just because the rules change doesn't justify breaking them and showing random people how to use the means to do so, people who would abuse those tools.

Oh yes, of course. We don't own the SOFTWARE so we can't BREAK FREE of the software. Really now. No, people shouldn't have to worry about whether they own the software or not. I can go fuck with Windows code however I want. They aren't going to say I can't update Windows, and they're not going to say I can't use my PC anymore. Nor are they going to try to sue me. They'll try to sue me if I make Windows free to people and they catch me. But Geohot didn't make anything free to anyone. He opened the floodgate. The pirates started making shit free. Go after the pirates, not this guy.

 

[Gunner 51]

For all similar arguments:

Who gives a fuck about the consequences? The argument is that a company should not be able to enforce their own rules on something you legally own. There is nothing ethical about what companies like Sony and Apple are doing, and so we shouldn't stand for it.

Piracy is something different, and while I agree that piracy can very well be considered morally wrong, it doesn't make it right for companies to do something morally wrong to prevent it.

Point is, they need to find different ways for fighting piracy other than trying to remove our rights

Truer words were never spoken. I'm of the opinion that as soon as money changes hands, the product becomes a possession of whoever has paid for it.

If I were to buy a car, it is my possession to do with as I see fit thethe minute I've paid for it. If I wanted to add a garish paint job to it, I'd surely have every right to do so. If the car manufacturer didn't like it - they can eat a big bowl of shame with a side order of "suck it."

I hope the hacker wins the case, a person should be free to use their consoles as they see fit. If they wish to mod it or hack it, they void the warranty and lose the right to free tech support, but they shouldn't be sued over it, IMO.

 

[Chibz]

The game is so old now though, if you bought it at a pawn shop the only one getting money would be the pawn store owner, the companies would no longer be getting the money 9I mean, that's the problem isn't it? With piracy for new things, the creators, like apple or microsoft, or Gearbox or whoever don't get their money?) and they bought it so I think they have every right to hack their PS3, also Hack is such a strong word, like rats, or ****

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The fact it's old doesn't mean that the company who made it can't make money off the game. Mario 1, 2 3 and doki doki panic are still games profited from by Nintendo so... It's illegal to download the ROM, still.

 

[Quiet Stranger]

The game is so old now though, if you bought it at a pawn shop the only one getting money would be the pawn store owner, the companies would no longer be getting the money 9I mean, that's the problem isn't it? With piracy for new things, the creators, like apple or microsoft, or Gearbox or whoever don't get their money?) and they bought it so I think they have every right to hack their PS3, also Hack is such a strong word, like rats, or ****

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The fact it's old doesn't mean that the company who made it can't make money off the game. Mario 1, 2 3 and doki doki panic are still games profited from by Nintendo so... It's illegal to download the ROM, still.

So lets say I go buy Mario 1 from somebody off Kijiji (think of it as local ebay except without the auctions) you're saying Nintendo will still make a profit from me buying Mario 1 from some random stranger?

 

[Chibz]

So lets say I go buy Mario 1 from somebody off Kijiji (think of it as local ebay except without the auctions) you're saying Nintendo will still make a profit from me buying Mario 1 from some random stranger?

No, but you're confusing used sales with new sales. The fact you can buy a game used doesn't excuse you for pirating any game. There are still ways to purchase the original mario 1 game "new" and the profits going to Nintendo. It's still illegal to download the ROM. In case you're wondering "where"? It's called the Wii Shoop Channel. It's got a rather amazing array of games, all with profits going to the rightful owners of the IP.

What ROMS are legal/illegal is a surprisingly complicated affair. I understand why the site would ban promoting the use of ANY of them...

Actually, the only defense I can think of for pirating is that you absolutely cannot find the game legally.

 

[Moustafa Chamli]

Oh yes, of course. We don't own the SOFTWARE so we can't BREAK FREE of the software. Really now. No, people shouldn't have to worry about whether they own the software or not. I can go fuck with Windows code however I want. They aren't going to say I can't update Windows, and they're not going to say I can't use my PC anymore. Nor are they going to try to sue me. They'll try to sue me if I make Windows free to people and they catch me. But Geohot didn't make anything free to anyone. He opened the floodgate. The pirates started making shit free. Go after the pirates, not this guy.

Actually, the Windows EULA strictly forbids you to modify the code to Windows.

On a purely technical level, Microsoft could sue you just for using something like UXTheme patcher because it modifies the code. Since they make a ton of money from people who buy Windows, they just don't care about those who pirate it (other than for the occasional public hanging).

 

[Thousand Tides]

I have no PS3 and definitely lack any sort of hacking ability or knowledge but I do applaud Hotz for turning the fight around. Downloading some things may be illegal but gaining the ability to do so isn't. It should be the third party who is having their software pirated thats angry not SONY. SONY could even capitolize off of this and open it up to everyone making all users happy.

 

[Retosa]

Oh yes, of course. We don't own the SOFTWARE so we can't BREAK FREE of the software. Really now. No, people shouldn't have to worry about whether they own the software or not. I can go fuck with Windows code however I want. They aren't going to say I can't update Windows, and they're not going to say I can't use my PC anymore. Nor are they going to try to sue me. They'll try to sue me if I make Windows free to people and they catch me. But Geohot didn't make anything free to anyone. He opened the floodgate. The pirates started making shit free. Go after the pirates, not this guy.

Actually, the Windows EULA strictly forbids you to modify the code to Windows.

On a purely technical level, Microsoft could sue you just for using something like UXTheme patcher because it modifies the code. Since they make a ton of money from people who buy Windows, they just don't care about those who pirate it (other than for the occasional public hanging).

Yeah, but the EULA in Microsoft's case is more to say "Our Tech support isn't going to do anything to help you if you fuck up your copy of Windows by modifying the code." Yeah, they do the occasional crucifixion of someone who pirates Windows. But hey, they're stealing M$'s business, so I can understand that. What Sony is doing isn't even about Piracy, as many people have pointed out. It's about control, because the company is insecure and needs to have complete control of everything with their name on it. This just isn't right.

Microsoft won't actually attack people who modify their OS, as shown by many people posting different builds of the Windows XP ISO's that are gutted, and/or have added software/service packs on them to make reinstalling more convenient. As long as they get their money from people paying for their OS, they really don't care as far as I can tell. Maybe I've just missed the news about them going after people modifying the OS, but I haven't seen it.

 

[Illyasviel]

No, just no. Why should we support a company that has treated consumers like crap for years, and is continually worsening their product? I'm sure there are people out there that you describe, but they are NOT the majority. And your own argument proves something; that no matter what, that person doesn't want to pay for the games and will do everything in their power NOT to. So will they buy the games? Chances are, most of those people won't, they'll stick to whatever free crap they can get their hands on it. So their sales were never guaranteed, and therefore while they don't help the industry, it's not a big loss.

So why can't they stick to their free crap?

Look, I'm all for consumer rights, but the gaming industry has been nothing but gentlemanly if you consider them in relation to every other player in the entertainment industry. Music, movies, even pornography have come together and formed extremely hostile anti-consumer powerhouses ( RIAA, MPAA ). I remember reading somewhere that last year over 100,000 file sharers were quietly dragged into court ( mostly by pornography distributors ). Not distributors. Individuals. End users. These guys have formed powerful lobbyist special interest groups in Washington and around the world propagating their agenda through government ( at least twice have attempted to force the government to cease federal funding and support for educational institutes who refuse to allow them to infiltrate their campus networks with invasive software and to actively prosecute individual students ). They drag defense lawyers into court and sue them on grounds of obstruction of justice. What else have they done? Well, they've hired and setup organizations to actually bait and attack consumers ( Media Defenders is known to use DDOS and honey pot tactics ). The things they do ( attempted to remove consumer right to make a backup copy of any media they own, continual revisions to DMCA ) really makes Sony's attempts to secure their system, through the letter of the law and not outside "solutions," pale in comparison.

Right now, in comparison, the gaming industry is hardly hostile. Their efforts so far amount to a bunch of whining and in terms of hostility? Almost nonexistent. You guys think the gaming industry is evil and actively trying to punish you now? Oh, it could get worse, a lot worse. I would much rather give the gaming industry this victory than see the alternative.

And you know what? Its easy for you to spout what you do if you are a non-producing member of society. I don't know. But let's say you are developing new products. Would you not want to defend those products?

The bottom line is people have a right to protect their work. The solution to piracy requires compromise. I'm sure if it helps protect their pocket lining companies will be more than happy to make some concessions. "The jaded consumer," I'm not so certain. There are tons of ways GeoHot could've handled this better, for example, contacting Sony and not releasing a juvenile rap video on YouTube. Just saying "I don't condone piracy" is in no way, shape or form a substitute for compromise. GeoHot doesn't care for compromise. He just wants to do whatever the fuck he wants to do.

I guess this is more directed at GeoHot than anybody else, but here are some words from one of your contemporaries, and a fellow hacker, Erik Naggum. Freedom is not defined as doing whatever the fuck you want to do, freedom is defined as the maximum accepted deviation from the socially accepted norm. No society will give you "freedom."

 

[robert022614]

I agree with him I mean it isnt against the rules to mod or hack it all you want as long as you dont take it online that is where the EULA comes in. In my opinion this is really just going to put a blemish on sony's reputation whether they win or not.

 

[Illyasviel]

Another thing that blemishes Sony's record is having an insecure system that increases the amount of money their gaming division is already hemorrhaging. I mean there are plenty of us who are still laughing at Microsoft's miserable RROD fiasco ( though they did handle it very well, even if the waiting time to get your box back was pretty damn long from what I hear ).

You can't satisfy everybody, and technically, not satisfying people who are already dead set on undermining everything you do ( under the pretense of "freedom" of course ) and non-consumers ( if you pirated a game, you're not really a customer or consumer ) is a better option than not satisfying your stakeholders.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I'm all for people doing whatever the hell they want to their consoles, as long as it doesn't ruin clean online fun for the rest of us who wanna play things legit (talking mainly CoD here as an example)

That's the problem.

Geohot publicly told everyone to use this as a way to hack and cheat online, AND he wanted people to ban legit users from PSN.

I can't believe people support this. Oh wait, it's something involving Sony. And EVERYONE here hates Sony. -_-

Neither side has the moral high ground here.
However, the repercussions of the case, should it fall into Sony's hands, will set devastating legal precedent, as it effectively removes ownership of ANY electronic device from the consumer.

So for that, I must agree with Geohot's side.

 

[szaleniec1000]

You pay for it, you agree to the rules and to abide by them. Don't like it? Don't do it.

But you don't, that's the point. EULA's aren't exactly iron clad.

EULA's are the thing everyone always goes:
blah blah by accepting blah blah.... TLR *accept*
Right? cause i hardly respect those things.

If we must have EULAs, I'd like them to be vetted by the Plain English Campaign before they could be considered enforceable.

 

[murphy7801]

Oh yes, of course. We don't own the SOFTWARE so we can't BREAK FREE of the software. Really now. No, people shouldn't have to worry about whether they own the software or not. I can go fuck with Windows code however I want. They aren't going to say I can't update Windows, and they're not going to say I can't use my PC anymore. Nor are they going to try to sue me. They'll try to sue me if I make Windows free to people and they catch me. But Geohot didn't make anything free to anyone. He opened the floodgate. The pirates started making shit free. Go after the pirates, not this guy.

Actually, the Windows EULA strictly forbids you to modify the code to Windows.

On a purely technical level, Microsoft could sue you just for using something like UXTheme patcher because it modifies the code. Since they make a ton of money from people who buy Windows, they just don't care about those who pirate it (other than for the occasional public hanging).

Yeah, but the EULA in Microsoft's case is more to say "Our Tech support isn't going to do anything to help you if you fuck up your copy of Windows by modifying the code." Yeah, they do the occasional crucifixion of someone who pirates Windows. But hey, they're stealing M$'s business, so I can understand that. What Sony is doing isn't even about Piracy, as many people have pointed out. It's about control, because the company is insecure and needs to have complete control of everything with their name on it. This just isn't right.

Microsoft won't actually attack people who modify their OS, as shown by many people posting different builds of the Windows XP ISO's that are gutted, and/or have added software/service packs on them to make reinstalling more convenient. As long as they get their money from people paying for their OS, they really don't care as far as I can tell. Maybe I've just missed the news about them going after people modifying the OS, but I haven't seen it.

Think your not making a clear but depressing separation of what is the morality and legality of situation Goehot has illegal modified software he does not have the rights too then released that onto the wide web. If you think this is wrong look to change software copy right laws Sony is acting with in the boundaries of the law to protect there IP which the copyrighted and licensed to all PS3 users. If don't like this that is unfortunate but still the law.