PS3 Hacker Raised All the Legal Funds Needed to Beat Sony in a Weekend

[arithine]

Once again, thanks for correcting me.

Sorry i didnt think the message got through, i tried changing it in time but failed

 

[RvLeshrac]

Post 524

Dont jump during of someone else's conversation without reading the whole debate. None of your arguments are about what you are talking about, or were already discussed. You took everything I said OUT OF CONTEXT. Read the whole thing, then, post your argument.
But since you insisted.


A- That point was about the PS3's ability to run Other OS which rules were ALREADY ESTABLISHED, not whether all ps3's can run it or not
B- That point was about who owns the hardware and if you are allowed to modify it. Not if you can install Linux on other consoles
C- That point was about companies doing as much as they can to protect their products, not if Sony did a good job or not
D- That point was about the legality of sharing software's information, not what their fucking purpose is
E- That point was about Mr Hotz knowing that releasing the root key would be definitely used to pirate games, not that disclaimers give you the right to do what you want.

Thanks for playing and next time, READ before you post.

Did you even read my post? Apparently not, since you've just posted the same points my post was *responding to in the first place*, save for C and D, where you utterly failed to comprehend the arguments, or even the basic concepts involved, instead choosing to change your statements entirely.

C) Sony didn't do anything to protect the PS3 beyond hanging a sign on a door saying "Do Not Enter," while leaving the keys in the lock. That was the entire point of the original presentation. That's no more "protecting their product" than my posting on forums is "writing a novel."

D)I don't even know what "sharing software's information" is supposed to mean, but the point still stands that a private encryption key and a CD key don't have anything to do with one another. They don't serve the same purpose, nor have they EVER served the same purpose.

 

[etherlance]

I'm sure this guys intentions are all, sunflowers and happy butterfly rainbows, but the truth is quite simple:


If he wins this case, other people will use it to defend themselves when they do something similar. Soon after, PSN will shut down due to hundreds of people hacking into it while screaming out:

"IT'S LEGAL, IT'S LEGAL IT'S MY PROPERTY I'LL DO WHAT I WANT WITH IT YOU CAN'T STOP ME"!

No one will play the games online or use multiplayer because others will be hacking their consoles to give themselves the advantage online, but hey it's okay children cause it's their property and it's legal right?


So in short I hope he loses the case or else otherwise it's gonna hurt EVERYONE!

 

[DarkBlood626]

Next on Escapist news a person is being sued for using non xenon approved bread in his xenon toaster

Really this shit wouldn?t fly on PC and it shouldn?t on console this is about control top and bottom they want to dictate to you what you can do with something you own, anything other then consoles this would be unacceptable.

Remember Counter strike is a MOD made via the HL2 source engine and one of most played PC game out even today thank god they don?t own the source engine Sony want to back you into a corner so they can spoon feed you overpriced content created by there monopoly wet dream.

 

[Partezan]

Way to loose even more cred playstation

 

[RvLeshrac]

I'm sure this guys intentions are all, sunflowers and happy butterfly rainbows, but the truth is quite simple:


If he wins this case, other people will use it to defend themselves when they do something similar. Soon after, PSN will shut down due to hundreds of people hacking into it while screaming out:

"IT'S LEGAL, IT'S LEGAL IT'S MY PROPERTY I'LL DO WHAT I WANT WITH IT YOU CAN'T STOP ME"!

No one will play the games online or use multiplayer because others will be hacking their consoles to give themselves the advantage online, but hey it's okay children cause it's their property and it's legal right?


So in short I hope he loses the case or else otherwise it's gonna hurt EVERYONE!

Because the existence of incredibly simple 360 hacks has rendered Live completely unusable, rite?

 

[beema]

I hope he wins. Sony (along with all these other companies who don't want to let us "own" things we have paid for) needs a smack in the face.

 

[DRSH1989]

Good luck Geohot!

 

[Speakercone]

snip

(snip)

I am sure all Hotz wanted was to be famous, (or more famous), and he did, as this article shows. His desire for infamy outweighs his desire to help anyone. He now has a troupe of loyal fans that will go as far as to send him money. If he truly was a white knight, in defense of those who just want Other OS, he would have published those codes anonymously, and afford himself the headache of getting sued. But his ego couldnt see beyond being on G4TV as the guy who hacked the PS3.

Post 530

Awesome post, really funny!

It is also possible that Geohot wanted to force a test case in US federal courts. Unlikely, but possible. Anyway, I'm glad we could come to an agreement, sir.

 

[etherlance]

I'm sure this guys intentions are all, sunflowers and happy butterfly rainbows, but the truth is quite simple:


If he wins this case, other people will use it to defend themselves when they do something similar. Soon after, PSN will shut down due to hundreds of people hacking into it while screaming out:

"IT'S LEGAL, IT'S LEGAL IT'S MY PROPERTY I'LL DO WHAT I WANT WITH IT YOU CAN'T STOP ME"!

No one will play the games online or use multiplayer because others will be hacking their consoles to give themselves the advantage online, but hey it's okay children cause it's their property and it's legal right?


So in short I hope he loses the case or else otherwise it's gonna hurt EVERYONE!

Because the existence of incredibly simple 360 hacks has rendered Live completely unusable, rite?

For a few unfortunate people, yes it has in fact.

 

[RvLeshrac]

I'm sure this guys intentions are all, sunflowers and happy butterfly rainbows, but the truth is quite simple:


If he wins this case, other people will use it to defend themselves when they do something similar. Soon after, PSN will shut down due to hundreds of people hacking into it while screaming out:

"IT'S LEGAL, IT'S LEGAL IT'S MY PROPERTY I'LL DO WHAT I WANT WITH IT YOU CAN'T STOP ME"!

No one will play the games online or use multiplayer because others will be hacking their consoles to give themselves the advantage online, but hey it's okay children cause it's their property and it's legal right?


So in short I hope he loses the case or else otherwise it's gonna hurt EVERYONE!

Because the existence of incredibly simple 360 hacks has rendered Live completely unusable, rite?

For a few unfortunate people, yes it has in fact.

"A few unfortunate people" hardly sounds like a systemic issue that will destroy the service.

 

[JDKJ]

I'm going to take a minute and play arbiter, because there only seems to be two extremes here.

First: A functioning analogy, not some weird one involving guns.

There is a web site; this web site has a neat function, it allows you to enter a motor vehicle maker, the year, and model of car you are looking for. Once this is done, EVERYTHING about this car is laid bare to you. It's timing settings for the engine, how much oil it requires versus how much is too much, what size wrenches you will need, etc. It also has a very interesting feature that tells you step by step how to remove and replace any part imaginable. This web site will tell you how to take the HAM radio out of a military humvee and replace it with an MP3 ready radio system. Although you would probably never need to do that, this web site is so in depth that it tells you how.

Does this allow for people to upgrade their mustangs with illegal nos injectors? Yes. Does this web site give people the information needed to seriously wreck your day? Yes. If someone uses this information to seriously wreck your day do you have the right to sue and have the information taken down? No. They are not responsible. (Also if the web site were taken down that would put countless auto-shops out of work but that's neither here nor there.)

The point is, you cannot own a number. Sony's code is nothing more than a number. Once it is purchased as part of the functioning machine, it belongs to the customer. End of story. However what Sony can do is copyright it, but all that can prevent is a profit from being made by the consumer.
What Sony is suing for, which is not the modding, but the posting of the code, is wrong. The system is mine. I payed for it, and entered no legal and binding contract with them. If I choose to tell people what I learned on messing with it, it is my prerogative and my right as a consumer. It is not my right to sell it, which is not the case.

Second: About Piracy.

Whether this code is be used for piracy is completely irrelevant. If a perfectly functioning car is used to commit a murder you don't sue Ford. Whether GeoHot is perpetuating piracy, cheating, or anything else beyond cracking your system, is beyond the point. Piracy IS an issue with video games. No matter how you slice it, a pirated copy IS a lost sale. You are enjoying a product that cost money, without someone footing the bill for you. End of story. What piracy inherently ISN'T is lost revenue. This is something that we as a community need to understand and separate. Piracy=lost sale, but piracy =/= lost revenue.
But once again, piracy in this case is a non-issue. We did not put the founder of Colt Munitions in prison the first time his product was used to kill someone. We did not stop manufacturing of all automobiles the first time vehicular manslaughter was committed. We did not stop making fire the first time a house burned down. You do not blame the distributor for misuse of his product on someones' behalf. Otherwise everyone would be in prison for something.

Where do we go? Who should win in this? Neither party should come out ahead. Instead Sony should be fined for using money as a tool to hurt the customer, and GeoHot should be exposed for, let's face it, the utter prick he is. Because he's not exactly a great guy either.
Instead, what should be done is we should take a step back, and rewrite copyright and IP protection laws. Because as it is, those that are truly doing the hard work towards innovation get no credit, and companies are abusing legal loopholes to hurt the consumer for doing what is well within their rights.


Thirdly: As regarding Other OS option.

Let's face it, Sony screwed up. I'm not going to claim I wanted it for some great purpose. Before they removed the feature I was signing up for a class at the community college to learn Linux so I could play PC exclusive games on my PS3. The day my money was due or I would have to drop the class, Sony took that ability away. In the end, the only thing it did to hurt me was convince me a piece of knowledge was no longer worth gaining.
So what do we do here? Well, it IS wrong that Sony took a function away from us and told us if we wanted it we can't play new games or play online. But all they did there was shoot themselves in the foot. Anyone worth their weight in salt in programming knowledge, got both. They got Linux, new games, PSN access, and at the current rates, cheat online. However the fact that when I bought it, it had it, means I should get it back.
But there are always to sides to the coin. We got new functions with it; 3-d support, Netflix.... Things I don't use and will most likely never use. MY PS3 plugs into my T.V. via a red cable, a yellow cable, and a white cable. The same thing my SNES plugs in through. So, while I may use Netflix, 3-d is meaningless to me.
Therefore the argument of loss vs gain is irrelevant. Why can't I have what I planned on using? Why do I have to have something I plan on not using (notice the wording, there is a difference in not planning to, and planning not to)? The simple answer is that Sony was protecting their assets. But, now someone with programming knowledge is mad at Sony, and all they've done is encourage the breaking, the piracy, and the PSN hacking. You know what would help more? Better PSN security. Does it mean PSN will stop being free? Maybe. But it's worth it to me.


Part Four: EULAs.

There is a strange sentiment from people siding with Sony, and that is that the EULA is a legal document. Actually, in America at least, it is not. You cannot enter a legal and binding document without a signature, both parties present, a third party notary, consent to enter said contract, understanding of said contract, knowledge of entering said contract, and a physical copy for each party. All those things are needed for a contract to be considered legal and binding.
Purchasing a PS3 is not entering a contract. One: Because you are unaware of it, and Two: See Above. All those lovely papers that come in the box telling you what not to do don't help it become a contract any more. All they do is tell you what not to do to help keep your system's longevity, and warranty. Which by the way, a warranty is nothing more than the company standing by their product. It has nothing to do with anything else.
Then we move on to the EULA that you agree to before every update and when creating a PSN account. Once again, not a legal and binding contract. There's no way for it to be. The EULA breaks down to you "pinky promising" you won't be a jerk online or modify the system, while with your promise to be a "good boy" they reserve the right to make any changes to the product they see fit. Read your EULA, go ahead. Take a good 30 minutes...

Back? Who in their right mind would ever agree to that unless they had to in order to get the functionality they paid for? It's coercion I tell you! By agreeing to play nice Sony agrees that they get to do whatever they want to your console. It doesn't matter that they can't prove you hurt them, if they think you'll hurt them, they'll strike first. And all it does is hurt the customers.

SO, as is said, the EULA is NOT a legal and binding document, it will NOT hold up in court, and is just there to screw you.


So there it is. Where does it go from here? Well, two ways currently: First: Sony wins, people see it as a strike against "teh haxorz" and corporations get the ground they need to really shaft the customer (it's not slippery slope fallacy if it's true and has been known to happen. Once a company knows they can make money off of "X", they will. And others will join.), or 2: GeoHot wins, he's painted as Satan, internet security gets more draconian, old people get scared more, company's find even more legal ways to hurt you, BUT our right as consumers are restored. For a short time at least.

I just want copyright and IP laws to get a good Christopher Nolan-esque reboot so we as consumers can have rights again.

Actually, pretty much all that's needed to create a binding legal contract are three elements: offer, acceptance, and some underlying "consideration" (i.e., something of value moving from one of the contracting parties to the other contracting party). The requirements you state above are not generally legal requirements of a binding contract, not under American law. For example, most binding contracts need not be reduced to writing. Oral contracts, albeit difficult to prove the existence thereof, are generally, if valid, entirely binding and enforceable. Nor is there any requirement whatsoever of a third-party notary. Do you have a credit card? If so, you entered into a contract with the card-issuer. Go take a look at your agreement with that issuer. Is it notarized? No, as an industry practice, credit card agreements are never notarized. But that's no impediment to their enforcement. Ever rented a car from Hertz, Avis, Budget, or any other rent-a-car company and had the rental agreement notarized? I don't think so. And I don't think that lack of notarization's any valid defense to a breach of contract action for failing to return the car as provided by the terms of the rental agreement. Notary-schmotary.

Not to say that they're entirely trouble-free or iron-clad, but there is a mountain of court decisions upholding the validity and enforceability of EULAs. There's also a fair amount of precedent refusing to uphold particular terms of EULAs (most frequently for reasons of being unconscionable), but to say that EULAs are categorically unenforceable as a matter of law is to misstate the case.

 

[Cecilthedarkknight_234]

I think Sony has more issues to worry about such as this instead of home-brew and back up on the ps3 systems. I feel a lite sorry for you guys in the u.k./Europe though that really does suck but no one is above the law not even Sony.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/feb/28/playstation-3-lg-legal-dispute

 

[JDKJ]

*snip*

Your headline, while sensational enough, is somewhat inaccurate. Hotz has merely raised enough money to pay for an adequate legal defense against Sony's allegations. That doesn't in any way necessarily mean that he's now going to "beat" Sony. It simply means that if he doesn't, it won't be for lack of competent legal representation.

 

[etherlance]

I'm sure this guys intentions are all, sunflowers and happy butterfly rainbows, but the truth is quite simple:


If he wins this case, other people will use it to defend themselves when they do something similar. Soon after, PSN will shut down due to hundreds of people hacking into it while screaming out:

"IT'S LEGAL, IT'S LEGAL IT'S MY PROPERTY I'LL DO WHAT I WANT WITH IT YOU CAN'T STOP ME"!

No one will play the games online or use multiplayer because others will be hacking their consoles to give themselves the advantage online, but hey it's okay children cause it's their property and it's legal right?


So in short I hope he loses the case or else otherwise it's gonna hurt EVERYONE!

Because the existence of incredibly simple 360 hacks has rendered Live completely unusable, rite?

For a few unfortunate people, yes it has in fact.

"A few unfortunate people" hardly sounds like a systemic issue that will destroy the service.

You can't get a zombie apocalypse without one or two infected to start it off.

These things always start small and then get bigger over time.

 

[JDKJ]

You don't RENT a PS3 you BUY one. Hence it's YOUR property. Sony has absolutely no legal right to tell you what you can and can't do with your property.
Edit: If Sony wins then I'm going to start selling toasters and putting notices on it that you cannot use it for anything other than pouring melted butter into it. If someone tries to put bread in them then I'LL SUE THEM FOR ALL THEIR WORTH

That's incorrect. You haven't bought the software in a PS3 and it is not your property. That software is intellectual property owned by Sony and which Sony has merely licensed to those who purchase and use their console. This fact is clearly spelled out in the PS3's EULA. With all due respect, the suggestion that because you've bought a PS3, you've also bought all the intellectual property rights to the software therein that Sony may have held prior to sale is a laughable suggestion. After all, that would mean that you and everyone else who bought a PS3 now owns the copyrighted software therein. That's a practical -- and legal -- impossibility. It's like saying that everyone who bought a Dell computer now owns the Windows operating system that came with it and, if they want, they can make copies of that operating system and sell them to others and Microsoft can't do anything to stop them because it's their property, not Microsoft's. I don't think it works that way.

 

[RvLeshrac]

You don't RENT a PS3 you BUY one. Hence it's YOUR property. Sony has absolutely no legal right to tell you what you can and can't do with your property.
Edit: If Sony wins then I'm going to start selling toasters and putting notices on it that you cannot use it for anything other than pouring melted butter into it. If someone tries to put bread in them then I'LL SUE THEM FOR ALL THEIR WORTH

That's incorrect. You haven't bought the software in a PS3 and it is not your property. That software is intellectual property owned by Sony and which Sony has merely licensed to those who purchase and use their console. This fact is clearly spelled out in the the PS3's EULA. With all due respect, the suggestion that because you've bought a PS3, you've also bought all the intellectual property rights to the software therein that Sony may have held prior to sale is a laughable suggestion. After all, that would mean that you and everyone else who bought a PS3 now owns the copyrighted software therein. That's a practical -- and legal -- impossibility.

Sony's claim is that you neither own the hardware *nor* the software, because they aren't separable. Imagine a world where you no longer own anything you purchase, and are required to only do specific tasks with those items.

----------------------------

I'm sure this guys intentions are all, sunflowers and happy butterfly rainbows, but the truth is quite simple:


If he wins this case, other people will use it to defend themselves when they do something similar. Soon after, PSN will shut down due to hundreds of people hacking into it while screaming out:

"IT'S LEGAL, IT'S LEGAL IT'S MY PROPERTY I'LL DO WHAT I WANT WITH IT YOU CAN'T STOP ME"!

No one will play the games online or use multiplayer because others will be hacking their consoles to give themselves the advantage online, but hey it's okay children cause it's their property and it's legal right?


So in short I hope he loses the case or else otherwise it's gonna hurt EVERYONE!

Because the existence of incredibly simple 360 hacks has rendered Live completely unusable, rite?

For a few unfortunate people, yes it has in fact.

"A few unfortunate people" hardly sounds like a systemic issue that will destroy the service.

You can't get a zombie apocalypse without one or two infected to start it off.

These things always start small and then get bigger over time.

Then why hasn't the issue gotten wider in scope over time? There are only a few, very specific, titles which suffer from wide-spread cheating, despite the 360 having been broken wide open for years.

 

[JDKJ]

You don't RENT a PS3 you BUY one. Hence it's YOUR property. Sony has absolutely no legal right to tell you what you can and can't do with your property.
Edit: If Sony wins then I'm going to start selling toasters and putting notices on it that you cannot use it for anything other than pouring melted butter into it. If someone tries to put bread in them then I'LL SUE THEM FOR ALL THEIR WORTH

That's incorrect. You haven't bought the software in a PS3 and it is not your property. That software is intellectual property owned by Sony and which Sony has merely licensed to those who purchase and use their console. This fact is clearly spelled out in the the PS3's EULA. With all due respect, the suggestion that because you've bought a PS3, you've also bought all the intellectual property rights to the software therein that Sony may have held prior to sale is a laughable suggestion. After all, that would mean that you and everyone else who bought a PS3 now owns the copyrighted software therein. That's a practical -- and legal -- impossibility.

Sony's claim is that you neither own the hardware *nor* the software, because they aren't separable. Imagine a world where you no longer own anything you purchase, and are required to only do specific tasks with those items.

----------------------------

I'm sure this guys intentions are all, sunflowers and happy butterfly rainbows, but the truth is quite simple:


If he wins this case, other people will use it to defend themselves when they do something similar. Soon after, PSN will shut down due to hundreds of people hacking into it while screaming out:

"IT'S LEGAL, IT'S LEGAL IT'S MY PROPERTY I'LL DO WHAT I WANT WITH IT YOU CAN'T STOP ME"!

No one will play the games online or use multiplayer because others will be hacking their consoles to give themselves the advantage online, but hey it's okay children cause it's their property and it's legal right?


So in short I hope he loses the case or else otherwise it's gonna hurt EVERYONE!

Because the existence of incredibly simple 360 hacks has rendered Live completely unusable, rite?

For a few unfortunate people, yes it has in fact.

"A few unfortunate people" hardly sounds like a systemic issue that will destroy the service.

You can't get a zombie apocalypse without one or two infected to start it off.

These things always start small and then get bigger over time.

Then why hasn't the issue gotten wider in scope over time? There are only a few, very specific, titles which suffer from wide-spread cheating, despite the 360 having been broken wide open for years.

That's incorrect. Sony, by the terms of it's EULA, reserves ownership in the PS3's software and firmware for which they have copyrights, nothing more. Accordingly and for example, the plastic chassis in which a PS3 is housed is your property and if you want to modify that aspect of your PS3, go right ahead and do so (although doing so will probably void any warranty you may have had). That's yours, free and clear. But the software and firmware aren't.

A license never grants rights of ownership. That's what makes a license distinguishable from an outright purchase. A license shouldn't be confused with an outright sale. The two are by no means the same. If you want to outright purchase Sony's copyrights to the software and firmware in a PS3, I suspect that'll cost you just a lil' bit more than the price of a PS3.

 

[Adahil]

Wonder how long it'll take the people demanding this "freedom" to start complaining when the PSN consists solely of hackers with godmode and autoaim all playing on their own servers because the official ones have been shut down because said hacks are now "legal"

I'm calling bull right now. PC gamers have had hackers since the stone age and Xbox 360 has its fair share of hackers. Ya know what we do on 360? You see someone hacking, you report them, it gets looked into, then you see a month later that a million accounts were banned and you look up the guy you saw hacking and see a nice big red "Cheater" flag across his name. That's his last warning and if he pulls it again he's banned from playing online. But hey, that's a company actually working to protect its interests rather than swinging the lawyer ball at anything they don't like the look of.

Haha. Did you really just say that? The online systems of Xbox and PC are completely different from those of the PS3. Oh, and if you knew anything about the rootkey, this hack is so well done that you can un-ban and ban other people on the the network. This rootkey isn't a normal "hack" it is a break down of everything connected to the network and console. Geohot did this very well and if it goes through the users will be able to do ANYTHING once so ever and nobody can stop them. Anything thing in this case means anything, not a couple admin. abilities but everything.