PS4 Architect: Cloud Computing Won't Make Graphics Better

[Cognimancer]

PS4 Architect: Cloud Computing Won't Make Graphics Better


PlayStation 4 lead architect Mark Cerny says he utilizes the cloud, but it's not the miracle technology some have made it out to be.

There are a lot of pseudo-technical buzzwords surrounding the upcoming console generation, and one of the most ill-defined is cloud computing. Both Sony and Microsoft have hyped their usage of the Cloud with the Xbox One and PlayStation 4, but it's never been clear how that will work or how much of a difference it will really make. Mark Cerny, lead systems architect for the PS4, recently explained how Sony is making use of cloud technologies, and how some of the claims surrounding it might not live up to the hype.

"To the extent that it's possible to do computing in the Cloud, PlayStation 4 can do computing in the Cloud," Cerny says. "We do some things... matchmaking is done in the Cloud, and it works very well. If we think about things that don't work well... trying to boost the quality of the graphics, that won't work well in the Cloud."

Some have advertised that the Cloud will be able to offload processing power in handling game elements like lighting, physics, and even AI. Anything's possible to some level, but it remains to be seen if developers will be able to use cloud computing to any noticeable effect. For now it looks like Sony is treating the Cloud like just another minor tool at its disposal, rather than assuming it'll be a game-changer when it's too early to say for sure.

Source: IGN [http://www.ign.com/videos/2013/07/17/mark-cerny-interview-part-1-hardware]

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[masticina]

If you require Cloud Computing to get your game to run a certain way. And lets say the internet of a gamer goes down.. doesn't that strips out allot of functionality from the game?

How more you off load how more is broken!

And will there be games that are utterly broken if it can't run the cloud?

In short what I ask is simply yes using the cloud to do things the current next gen hardware can't optimally will extend its life. And make it more powerful. But where is the fall back point?

If a game requires the cloud to run 50% of its functionality isn't it technically broken?

 

[Baresark]

Short answer: Cloud computing is utterly useless. Not only is it inefficient to outsource any kind of calculations to another machine, it has latency issue. They love this buzz word, but I'm tired of hearing it. It's not the wave of the future. Anyone who has ever played an MMO will tell you that it has never offered the best experience. The more that can be done locally, the better off you are. And it sure as shit isn't a remotely good idea to put lighting calculations a data stream away.

 

[Angelous Wang]

If you require Cloud Computing to get your game to run a certain way. And lets say the internet of a gamer goes down.. doesn't that strips out allot of functionality from the game?

How more you off load how more is broken!

And will there be games that are utterly broken if it can't run the cloud?

In short what I ask is simply yes using the cloud to do things the current next gen hardware can't optimally will extend its life. And make it more powerful. But where is the fall back point?

If a game requires the cloud to run 50% of its functionality isn't it technically broken?

No, the game just runs worse/slower.

Cloud allows you to offload certain processes/tasks, so that your console can focus it's own processors on certain processes/tasks so those processes/tasks can run faster/better.

Because the console processors have limited resources to spend amongst processes/tasks. And if they don't have to deal with certain processes/tasks themselves then they can spend more resources on the remaining ones.

If there is no cloud the console processors do all processes/tasks themselves, which is worse/slower.

Of course if you have no internet connection you do loose any extra cloud based function (like cloud saves). But these are not essential to playing the game.

That is the idea anyway, of course you have to take things like latency into account which theoretically could actually make cloud processing worse/slower.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Not sure if Mark Cerny is a legitimately cool guy...

... Or he's just been browsing threads to find out what we've been complaining about the most

Regardless, at least he's not telling us bullshit. Streaming and cloud services can give us cool things like cloud saves and streaming games instantly. It'll be useful for things like demoing games because who has the patience to download a game you're going to test for 15 minutes? Microsoft's calculation magic has already been proven physically impossible because of bandwidth

 

[geizr]

I would think the inherent latency of the Internet would make real-time Cloud enhanced computations not as practical as one may think. Then again, I'm just guessing on that, so I could be wrong.

Regardless, in my opinion, we've long passed the point of needing better graphics. We need better overall game design and implementation, in my opinion.

 

[Da Orky Man]

I've always thought that cloud computing in games would only really be useful in certain processes. I can see an RTS using the cloud for a particularly complicated overall-strategy AI that doesn't need a quick response time, while running the individual unit/local squad AI on the machine itself. As far as I know, graphics need a fairly quick response time, so don't respond well to latency.

 

[vallorn]

See Microsoft? This is how you tell people about what your console does. You wheel out the technical people who made it to do insightful interviews and answer questions straightforwardly.

What you don't do is let Don Mattrick open his mouth and scream buzzwords and "its the future and we're taking you with us" at interviewers.

 

[Vivi22]

Some have advertised that the Cloud will be able to offload processing power in handling game elements like lighting, physics, and even AI.

I assume by some you mean Microsoft because I haven't seen anyone else stupid enough to make that claim and actually expect people to believe it.

 

[Roxas1359]

See Microsoft? This is how you tell people about what your console does. You wheel out the technical people who made it to do insightful interviews and answer questions straightforwardly.

What you don't do is let Don Mattrick open his mouth and scream buzzwords and "its the future and we're taking you with us" at interviewers.

Don't forget about Major Nelson, whose claims that it was impossible to remove the DRM when interviewed by Angry Joe showed how little he knew about his own console. XD

OT: Honestly whenever I hear "the cloud" I instantly think of Fallout New Vegas' Cloud from the Seirra Madre. A poisonous cloud that preserves the past but kills the present and possibly the future...just like Microsoft has been doing when advertising their console. XD

Anyway, I found this Eurogamer article talking about Microsoft's cloud gaming to be really informative.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming

 

[gibboss28]

Some have advertised that the Cloud will be able to offload processing power in handling game elements like lighting, physics, and even AI.

I assume by some you mean Microsoft because I haven't seen anyone else stupid enough to make that claim and actually expect people to believe it.

EA tried it with Sim City, and they managed to get away with it until people actually had a good play around with it and found that they were so full of shit you could use them as fertiliser

 

[Angelous Wang]

See Microsoft? This is how you tell people about what your console does. You wheel out the technical people who made it to do insightful interviews and answer questions straightforwardly.

What you don't do is let Don Mattrick open his mouth and scream buzzwords and "its the future and we're taking you with us" at interviewers.

Don't forget about Major Nelson,

Major Nelson is basically a US community manger, he has no direct power or knowledge of anything really. He does however have a direct line to actual people that do have power or knowledge, but they don't really tell him anything unless it information they want publicized.

He's a monkey Microsoft has sit between themselves and the US xbox community so someone can talk to them "on their level", and attempt to generate goodwill toward Microsoft (other countries such as the UK have their own version of him, and some have no one because they are not important enough to Microsoft).

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

glad someone with the credetials to back the statement up has finally come out n said what we all suspected

 

[masticina]

No, the game just runs worse/slower.

Cloud allows you to offload certain processes/tasks, so that your console can focus it's own processors on certain processes/tasks so those processes/tasks can run faster/better.

Because the console processors have limited resources to spend amongst processes/tasks. And if they don't have to deal with certain processes/tasks themselves then they can spend more resources on the remaining ones.

If there is no cloud the console processors do all processes/tasks themselves, which is worse/slower.

Of course if you have no internet connection you do loose any extra cloud based function (like cloud saves). But these are not essential to playing the game.

That is the idea anyway, of course you have to take things like latency into account which theoretically could actually make cloud processing worse/slower.

SO this means, a point I want to go to, that the ability to off load things to the cloud would still be limited. It could not be used to give the consoles as they get older magically a boost by taking over big processes. Instead to make sure that the off line modes would not break there would be a limit on what you could off load.

In short as the interview points out.. it won't make the console immortal. In short due to the reality of internet being 100% awesome everywhere, even in the richer countries, off loading won't offer that much.

Lets see how long it takes before we get "the cloud keeps track of the players in this 64 versus 64 match"... yeah that isn't cloud computer that is just running a server. Something that we have been doing for more then 15 years!

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming

Look at that it is about Microsofts Idea about The Cloud and how it would effect gaming.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Some have advertised that the Cloud will be able to offload processing power in handling game elements like lighting, physics, and even AI.

I assume by some you mean Microsoft because I haven't seen anyone else stupid enough to make that claim and actually expect people to believe it.

While Microsoft's claims have been on the absurd end of the optimism scale, certain non-critical elements could be handled off of the client. Imagine if Oblivion's Radiant AI had worked as originally hyped. You could have AI routines for non-visible actors running on the cloud to make the world react in a manner that made it feel more real. Then, should you lose connection, the important parts of the game still run as intended, with the only thing lost being something that only affects the game indirectly anyway.

Granted, there's no reason the same couldn't be done over LAN with a PC, but sadly that's kind of a dirty acronym for most devs these days.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Anytime I hear the phrase ~*the cloud*~ during a press conference or anything, my brain immediately replaces it with "GODDAMN WIZARDS" because it's essentially the same.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Dont care about cloud, just another buzz. I dont care about the graphics i just want good games.Thing is, i have no interest in the PS4, the exclusives dont interest me. But it seems they are continuing to beat the "MS is doing this, we are not" drum. Its pathetic. Sony have yet to sell me on anything they are doing.

 

[Your Fearless Captain]

The latency from console to server is way to long be of any use to the local hardware. In the time it takes the console to send the data it needs processed to the server, have the server process it and send it back the console could have done it much, much faster and way more reliably. Also you would need enormous speed and bandwidth. The internal connections between the CPU, GPU and RAM all measure in gigabytes per second where as internet speed it measured in megabits per second. The two units are several orders of magnitude a part. Cloud computing to offload stuff like graphics, AI or physics is so impractical it makes no sense to even consider it.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Dont care about cloud, just another buzz. I dont care about the graphics i just want good games.Thing is, i have no interest in the PS4, the exclusives dont interest me. But it seems they are continuing to beat the "MS is doing this, we are not" drum. Its pathetic. Sony have yet to sell me on anything they are doing.

For me, the big theme of the PS4 is "we have learned from our mistakes." The controller is improved, the hardware is standard architecture, and they seem to be shying away from the anti-consumer stance they held in the PS3 era. It's not enough to make me buy at launch day, but it is enough that I probably will pick the console up when the game catalogue is a bit more expansive.

 

[Scars Unseen]

The latency from console to server is way to long be of any use to the local hardware. In the time it takes the console to send the data it needs processed to the server, have the server process it and send it back the console could have done it much, much faster and way more reliably. Also you would need enormous speed and bandwidth. The internal connections between the CPU, GPU and RAM all measure in gigabytes per second where as internet speed it measured in megabits per second. The two units are several orders of magnitude a part. Cloud computing to offload stuff like graphics, AI or physics is so impractical it makes no sense to even consider it.

I would say that depends on the type of game. FPS? Not a good idea. Turn based strategy? Much more plausible, though one wonders why you would need to. I think my Oblivion example is a good happy middle for this sort of thing. Don't use the cloud to handle the stuff happening on screen, but rather to calculate AI and simulation stuff that you can't see, yet can see the effects of.

Imagine a Dwarf Fortress game that had modern graphics(blasphemy, yes I know) without having to sacrifice its exhaustive detail in simulation. Some very few might have systems beefy enough to handle that, but most PCs(and all consoles if you were to somehow port the game) would need some of the work handled off client. Again, that wouldn't have to mean the cloud; a networked Raspberry Pi would likely be enough to augment the processing load. But off client processing could have a place in the gaming world.

Just not the place Microsoft wants you to think it does.