PUA

[Schadrach]

There exists like like a whole freaking community of these weirdos on reddit and a lot of other sites, to me they seem like a bunch of rapey guys that actively try to exploit emotional weaknesses.
They write whole fucking guides about it, fucking creeps!

To be fair, there's basically no advice they could give that wouldn't be viewed in the most negative light possible.

My personal favorite is that one PUA suggests that at even the slightest bit of token resistance to disengage. As in, if you're doing X and want to move on to Y and she's not up for it, don't go back to X but back even farther off with the intent being to make her have to initiate/escalate if she wants things to get back to X. Since this is literally the opposite of ignoring consent (this is backing the hell off and making them come to you -- essentially requiring affirmative consent to even go back to what you were doing), so you'd think this would be an example of PUA technique that feminists would like, but alas no. It gets deemed abusive.

It's always nice to see a rape joke where the punchline is the pathetic predator, rather than the survivor. Well done. That's how you do it.

The dickwolves affair didn't have the rape victim as the punchline either -- rape was used in that bit as one of several examples of horrible things befalling the slaves, wherein the joke was about MMO morality, and how people stop doing good deeds once they've hit their arbitrary reward quota. He's "The Sixth Slave" (title of the comic), when the quest log says you need to save 5. The punchline isn't that he was a rape victim, but rather that the "hero" is going to leave him to his assorted torments because the hero has met quota and is done for the day (and how utterly unheroic that is).

 

[Azure23]

There exists like like a whole freaking community of these weirdos on reddit and a lot of other sites, to me they seem like a bunch of rapey guys that actively try to exploit emotional weaknesses.
They write whole fucking guides about it, fucking creeps!

To be fair, there's basically no advice they could give that wouldn't be viewed in the most negative light possible.

My personal favorite is that one PUA suggests that at even the slightest bit of token resistance to disengage. As in, if you're doing X and want to move on to Y and she's not up for it, don't go back to X but back even farther off with the intent being to make her have to initiate/escalate if she wants things to get back to X. Since this is literally the opposite of ignoring consent (this is backing the hell off and making them come to you -- essentially requiring affirmative consent to even go back to what you were doing), so you'd think this would be an example of PUA technique that feminists would like, but alas no. It gets deemed abusive.

It's always nice to see a rape joke where the punchline is the pathetic predator, rather than the survivor. Well done. That's how you do it.

The dickwolves affair didn't have the rape victim as the punchline either -- rape was used in that bit as one of several examples of horrible things befalling the slaves, wherein the joke was about MMO morality, and how people stop doing good deeds once they've hit their arbitrary reward quota. He's "The Sixth Slave" (title of the comic), when the quest log says you need to save 5. The punchline isn't that he was a rape victim, but rather that the "hero" is going to leave him to his assorted torments because the hero has met quota and is done for the day (and how utterly unheroic that is).

That's cool. I never brought up Penny Arcade, but whatever, I'll have this conversation.

I feel like enough time has gone by that we can all be realistic and civil about this. Penny arcade made a joke with the exact intent you articulated. Some people (generally the people who get mad at anything to do with sexual assault, mostly survivors, I can sympathize), not a ton of people, but some, got offended by it and criticized it. And the Penny Arcade duo responded in about the most puerile and unconstructive way imaginable. I like those guys, they do a pretty decent comic and their charity work is truly amazing, but holy shit was their response uncalled for. That's when things really got out of hand. That's when it became a controversy. If they had opened a dialogue and explained the intent of the joke instead of attacking their critics then that shit would never have snowballed like it did.

As for the PUA thing. It'd probably go over better (with everyone, let's be honest, most people have a problem with PUA's) if the vast majority of PUA rhetoric wasn't designed to be coercive and the demographic in general wasn't represented by people like Roosh V, a self identifying rapist.

 

[CaitSeith]

If this comic had been posted 28 years ago, no one would had thought in rape.

 

[Schadrach]

That's cool. I never brought up Penny Arcade, but whatever, I'll have this conversation.

I feel like enough time has gone by that we can all be realistic and civil about this. Penny arcade made a joke with the exact intent you articulated. Some people (generally the people who get mad at anything to do with sexual assault, mostly survivors, I can sympathize), not a ton of people, but some, got offended by it and criticized it. And the Penny Arcade duo responded in about the most puerile and unconstructive way imaginable. I like those guys, they do a pretty decent comic and their charity work is truly amazing, but holy shit was their response uncalled for. That's when things really got out of hand. That's when it became a controversy. If they had opened a dialogue and explained the intent of the joke instead of attacking their critics then that shit would never have snowballed like it did.

They responded in exactly the way anyone familiar with Penny Arcade knew they would respond when it happened. They had never responded well to anyone demanding that they change or remove any of their comics (public mockery of the complaint being about par for the course). When the reaction to said mockery was to escalate, they again acted exactly like anyone familiar with them would expect -- they escalated in turn.

If it had merely been some criticism, that would be one thing. But it was the kind of outraged shit that happens more and more these days (but on a smaller scale than now). Of course, it also seems like what counts as "criticism" and what counts as "harassment" or "abuse" seems to be very much based on the politics of the people involved (look at people being "critical" of Joss Whedon recently and compare to where the bar is set to count as "harassing" certain other folks). Comparing the Honey Badgers at Calgary and Sommers at Oberlin is a good example -- somehow the Honey Badgers were "harassers" but the people protesting Sommers were "critical" of her.

It took a lawsuit to get Penny Arcade to pull the only comic they've ever pulled (the American McGee Strawberry Shortcake one). To think they were going to do so because someone was offended demonstrates either that they thought their feelings were *that* important

As for the PUA thing. It'd probably go over better (with everyone, let's be honest, most people have a problem with PUA's) if the vast majority of PUA rhetoric wasn't designed to be coercive and the demographic in general wasn't represented by people like Roosh V, a self identifying rapist.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what they say, they can't win. Even "if she seems reluctant or resistant to any degree, back way off and make her make the move if she's interested" is deemed coercive and abusive. Which I find hilarious -- being aggressive and moving in is rapey, but backing off and making her make the move is abusive. I'm sure when a PUA thinks of another alternative, that will become problematic as well.

 

[Azure23]

That's cool. I never brought up Penny Arcade, but whatever, I'll have this conversation.

I feel like enough time has gone by that we can all be realistic and civil about this. Penny arcade made a joke with the exact intent you articulated. Some people (generally the people who get mad at anything to do with sexual assault, mostly survivors, I can sympathize), not a ton of people, but some, got offended by it and criticized it. And the Penny Arcade duo responded in about the most puerile and unconstructive way imaginable. I like those guys, they do a pretty decent comic and their charity work is truly amazing, but holy shit was their response uncalled for. That's when things really got out of hand. That's when it became a controversy. If they had opened a dialogue and explained the intent of the joke instead of attacking their critics then that shit would never have snowballed like it did.

They responded in exactly the way anyone familiar with Penny Arcade knew they would respond when it happened. They had never responded well to anyone demanding that they change or remove any of their comics (public mockery of the complaint being about par for the course). When the reaction to said mockery was to escalate, they again acted exactly like anyone familiar with them would expect -- they escalated in turn.

If it had merely been some criticism, that would be one thing. But it was the kind of outraged shit that happens more and more these days (but on a smaller scale than now). Of course, it also seems like what counts as "criticism" and what counts as "harassment" or "abuse" seems to be very much based on the politics of the people involved (look at people being "critical" of Joss Whedon recently and compare to where the bar is set to count as "harassing" certain other folks). Comparing the Honey Badgers at Calgary and Sommers at Oberlin is a good example -- somehow the Honey Badgers were "harassers" but the people protesting Sommers were "critical" of her.

It took a lawsuit to get Penny Arcade to pull the only comic they've ever pulled (the American McGee Strawberry Shortcake one). To think they were going to do so because someone was offended demonstrates either that they thought their feelings were *that* important

As for the PUA thing. It'd probably go over better (with everyone, let's be honest, most people have a problem with PUA's) if the vast majority of PUA rhetoric wasn't designed to be coercive and the demographic in general wasn't represented by people like Roosh V, a self identifying rapist.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what they say, they can't win. Even "if she seems reluctant or resistant to any degree, back way off and make her make the move if she's interested" is deemed coercive and abusive. Which I find hilarious -- being aggressive and moving in is rapey, but backing off and making her make the move is abusive. I'm sure when a PUA thinks of another alternative, that will become problematic as well.

Sorry for the awkward quoting but I'm on mobile right now.

Look I like the Penny Arcade guys and I've followed their work for years, and yes, their reaction was very expected. It was also incredibly childish and harmful to their charity efforts that year. Yeah, they don't take criticism well, that's not a reason to never discuss their work.

And come on, the difference between harassment and criticism is really not that difficult to determine; is a person being attacked? Or is it their work? Are people sending threats, or just telling them their personal politics are shitty? In Penny Arcade's case, it was mostly the latter, and from what I remember there wasn't a concerted outcry to remove the strip from the site. There were definitely people saying that they should stop printing those goddawful shirts, but once again, that's a result of the escalation on their part.

And yeah, PUA's can't catch a break in the court of public opinion, so what? Do they even care? They exist to try and convince women to sleep with them with silly mind games (and tons of alchohol, lest we forget the creepy date rapey aspect of their hobby), I doubt most of them give two shits what "the feminists" think of them.

 

[Pax Romana]

I had never heard of a PUA (and many other odd things) until I was on this site. Sounds dumb and sad and I don't know any women stupid enough to fall for that kind of garbage.

And yeah, PUA's can't catch a break in the court of public opinion, so what? Do they even care? They exist to try and convince women to sleep with them with silly mind games (and tons of alchohol, lest we forget the creepy date rapey aspect of their hobby), I doubt most of them give two shits what "the feminists" think of them.

Mind games? Is that like a Jedi mind trick thing??

 

[Doom972]

I had never heard of a PUA (and many other odd things) until I was on this site. Sounds dumb and sad and I don't know any women stupid enough to fall for that kind of garbage.

And yeah, PUA's can't catch a break in the court of public opinion, so what? Do they even care? They exist to try and convince women to sleep with them with silly mind games (and tons of alchohol, lest we forget the creepy date rapey aspect of their hobby), I doubt most of them give two shits what "the feminists" think of them.

Mind games? Is that like a Jedi mind trick thing??

These are methods that discover and exploit insecurities. Both genders use them however, and not just males or male PUAs. They are designed to work on weak minds, so they are somewhat like the Jedi mind trick.

Is Critical Miss still active? It's been awhile.

 

[flying_whimsy]

Is Critical Miss still active? It's been awhile.

I've been wondering that, too. Erin Dies Alone is still going, but I kind of miss how chaotic Critical Miss is.

 

[camazotz]

Interesting observation: Facehuggers die after implanting their eggs. I'm not sure that this guy's qualified to be hosting this seminar given that he's a virigin.

I was thinking the same thing, which made the joke even funnier.