Question for fighting game fans.

[Rayce Archer]

I think really though, memorizing controls ISN'T an integral part. For true PRO ICE players, it's all about timing, memorizing frames of animation, etc. The only games where controls really seem to matter to challenge are ones with kind of sloppy actual gameplay- for instance the PS1 X-Men games are all about memorizing your super auto-combos, but that's because combos can't be interrupted and supers preempt everything.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

I think really though, memorizing controls ISN'T an integral part. For true PRO ICE players, it's all about timing, memorizing frames of animation, etc. The only games where controls really seem to matter to challenge are ones with kind of sloppy actual gameplay- for instance the PS1 X-Men games are all about memorizing your super auto-combos, but that's because combos can't be interrupted and supers preempt everything.

Well, memorizing inputs until they become just second nature to pull off is an integral part of getting up to that level, you gotta be able to pull off a Shoryuken or a Hadouken just on command, no matter where you are on screen, after that the Supers/Ultras come naturally since they generally use the same inputs just using say 2 punch buttons rather than one. Or there is a dedicated super button as there is in recent games like in Injustice

 

[zumbledum]

Why do special attacks always require you to memorize button combinations? why don?t they simply do what smash bros does? does it add something to the game?

The actual answer to this question is much longer and more in depth than I am willing to put into this post. However, to answer it in a very short version...
Fighters at a competitive level revolve around mind games. In order for fighters to include mental fatigue, they require you to do precise inputs, so that, under pressure, you can screw up. Composure is part of the game, and is a big difference that seperates pro players.
If you don't have precision inputs required, you aren't going to get worn down mentally. That is a major aspect of the game.

i suspect thats just happy circumstance. i mean there wasnt any pro level fighting scene when SF1 hit the arcades and started the practice.

These moves were hidden the instructions didnt come on the case and no one knew they were there, capcom had decided to put these fantastical moves into a fighter , remember up until this point fighting games had never seen a fireball they were all mundane martial arts games. and they were super powerful any special would take a 1/3 of a life the combo of inputs to perform them i suspect were to do with balance. and maybe about reflecting there "super" nature.

Sf 2 came along and absolutely spanked the competition , it was an Everquest level event in fighting just how advanced and better than anything else we had seen before. and it ofc carried over its predecessors ways. well without the pressure sensitive punch pads /mourn. its success pretty much established it as the go to format for all fighting games since.

 

[Bob_F_It]

I would think (for most games) it's to make sure the input is different from your normals. A quarter circle is a good example - say my opponent jabs with an attack that hits high, then crouch-blocks anticipating a reaction; I may want to crouch under the jab (press down), then do an overhead attack (forward+[some button])that will hit the crouch-blocking opponent. A quarter circle (down, d+f, forward+[button]) will be distinct from this, so I'll only pull it out when being as explicit.

You don't want to do specials accidentally as well. If specials were a case of one direction and an attack button, at worst for a masher, they'd pull it out very quickly and most likely get punished, an experienced player would pull it with a slight mistiming (was holding forward to move, didn't release before attempting a normal). In the general scheme of canceling, light normals are canceled by heavy normals, which are canceled by specials, which are canceled by supers, and anything former is canceled anything later on the line. When you're not ready to do a super, a blocked of whiffed special will leave you open for punishment.

All said, I have come across some ridiculous inputs for specials. I recall Chaos Code having the input for a move being quarter-circle backward, half-circle forward + kick, and the game was quite asinine about getting all 7 directions in the right order, with no interruptions, and in good time. On the other hand, I find Skullgirls quite elegant in its inputs for specials and supers: a quarter circle or dragon punch will start either, with one attack button for a special, and two for a super. It's even become lenient on 360 motions for super-throws, accepting forward, down, back, up.

 

[DarklordKyo]

Aside from everything else said above, I would say that special motions mean you won't get a special if you just want to use your normals and it's generally more satisfying when you do end a combo with your double quartercircle forward charge super taking half the opponent's health off (love you Labrys :3) instead of hitting one button.

Also fucking them up can result into some funny situations and can even be surprisingly beneficial if you lucked out.

That said, some motions are ludicrous and the Z motion is pretty hard to learn until you get the knack for it. Sorry but what is Hazama's Astral motion in BlazBlue CSEX? Look at the list in game and tell me it doesn't look like a bunch of arrows just threw up onto a TV screen. I've never once pulled it off.

In number-based input jargon, the way to do the pretzel motion is 1632143 (if you have no idea what the numbers mean, and I don't blame you, look at the num pad on a keyboard). Gotta jump straight into the half circle after the initial down-back.

 

[themilo504]

Why do special attacks always require you to memorize button combinations? why don?t they simply do what smash bros does? does it add something to the game?

Why not? If you want to play any game you have to remember a lot of shit. Even CoD has you remembering what guns go DAKKADAKKADAKKA! and what guns go *plink click clack plink click clack plink click clack plink*

It's in every fucking game. What's even bad about it?

Because it seems to me like its memorization for memorization´s sake, like it?s just there to make learning how to play fighting games even harder.

However as other people have pointed out there are reasons for why it?s there, and it?s not impossible to learn(expect that accursed z motion), so I guess I can live with it.

The Z motion? Do you mean forward down forward or am I thinking of something else?

But in any case, memorization isn't a bad thing, it seperates these games from mindless button mashers.

The z motion is the thing you have to do to use a shoryuken in street fighter 2.

If the only thing that stops a game from being a mindless button masher is memorization, then its a bad game.

 

[syaoran728]

The z motion is the thing you have to do to use a shoryuken in street fighter 2.

If the only thing that stops a game from being a mindless button masher is memorization, then its a bad game.

That's the thing, fighting games aren't mindless button mashers. If you've ever watched high level play at tournaments, or even the low to medium level play I have with my friends, you'd see that there's a lot of thought behind each thing we do. Hitting buttons at random gets you hit with counters, moves with partially invincible properties, and just plain old punished for doing dumb things.

If you're honestly interested in knowing more as to why this is, I'd be perfectly happy to explain frame data in fighting games and how it makes the genre what it is.

 

[themilo504]

The z motion is the thing you have to do to use a shoryuken in street fighter 2.

If the only thing that stops a game from being a mindless button masher is memorization, then its a bad game.

That's the thing, fighting games aren't mindless button mashers. If you've ever watched high level play at tournaments, or even the low to medium level play I have with my friends, you'd see that there's a lot of thought behind each thing we do. Hitting buttons at random gets you hit with counters, moves with partially invincible properties, and just plain old punished for doing dumb things.

If you're honestly interested in knowing more as to why this is, I'd be perfectly happy to explain frame data in fighting games and how it makes the genre what it is.

I am actually quite interested, because when I play fighting games the winner is typically decided by who can spam moves more.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

Oke I think I can understand why special moves need to be so complicated, I just wish that it wasn?t so tedious to learn them, having to constantly pause the game to look up move lists just ruins the fun for me.

It just really takes time to learn the motions, but once you do, you'll find that what you learn in one fighting game like Street Fighter can transfer over to, say, King of Fighters. At least in terms of doing input motions.

I still play on an Xbox 360 pad when I play SF4 or KoFXIII on PC and the only problems I have with inputs come from lag, if ever. Been playing fighting games for 5 years since the first BlazBlue. I'm not a high-level player by any means but I can tell I've improved quite a bit.

Seriously, learning a DP/forward down forward/shoryuken motion is difficult at first, but once you learn it on one character, you've essentially learned it on every character that has a move assigned to that motion.

After a few days of practice they (the motions) shouldn't be hugely complicated since so many inputs are shared between characters, but I get where you're coming from. I'm just really used to fighting games by now.

 

[syaoran728]

The z motion is the thing you have to do to use a shoryuken in street fighter 2.

If the only thing that stops a game from being a mindless button masher is memorization, then its a bad game.

That's the thing, fighting games aren't mindless button mashers. If you've ever watched high level play at tournaments, or even the low to medium level play I have with my friends, you'd see that there's a lot of thought behind each thing we do. Hitting buttons at random gets you hit with counters, moves with partially invincible properties, and just plain old punished for doing dumb things.

If you're honestly interested in knowing more as to why this is, I'd be perfectly happy to explain frame data in fighting games and how it makes the genre what it is.

I am actually quite interested, because when I play fighting games the winner is typically decided by who can spam moves more.

All right lets get this started.

Ok first off, Frame Data refers to the amount and properties of the frames of a characters moves. Fighting games run on 30 frames per second of animation, so a move who's animation takes a half second to complete from start to finish has 15 frames of animation. Simple right. So then all moves have three major types of frames: Start up frames, active frames, and recovery frames. Start up frames are the animation at the start of the attack before it actually does any damage and can be interrupted by the opponent using a faster move or predicting your attack and hitting you first. Next are active frames, these are the portion of the move that actually hurts the opponent. Its when the punch/kick is actually doing its job. Finally are recovery frames, this is the time after you attack, but before you can execute new commands as the character goes back into a neutral stance. Its in these recovery frames that you are vulnerable to attack.

Ok now to talk about hit/block stun. Hit and block stun are the number of frames it takes before you can do anything after either getting hit by or blocking an attack. These are usually expressed with as negative and positive numbers. If you block a move and its -7 on block, that means that you will be able to move 7 frames sooner than your opponent. So if you use a move that starts up in 6 frames, they wouldn't be able to block it. Such a move is called unsafe. While a move that can't be automatically punished after its blocked is called safe.

The last bit of technical fighting game stuff to know are hit boxes. Its pretty self explanatory, its your character. But the important attacks have their own hit box and can change the characters own hit box while preforming them. For example a crouching kick is gonna make the characters hit box lower to the ground for a moment making him immune to attacks that pass over his head.

At higher level play of fighting games, you don't memorize the entirety of the frame data, but you make sure to remember which moves safe and unsafe.

So if an opponent is constantly using the same move. Just take a tiny bit of time to learn why its beating you and how you can beat it. i.e. Block the move and punish it, jump over the fire ball and hit them while you're in the air, hit them with your fastest jab before their move starts, ect. ect. ect.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

The z motion is the thing you have to do to use a shoryuken in street fighter 2.

If the only thing that stops a game from being a mindless button masher is memorization, then its a bad game.

That's the thing, fighting games aren't mindless button mashers. If you've ever watched high level play at tournaments, or even the low to medium level play I have with my friends, you'd see that there's a lot of thought behind each thing we do. Hitting buttons at random gets you hit with counters, moves with partially invincible properties, and just plain old punished for doing dumb things.

If you're honestly interested in knowing more as to why this is, I'd be perfectly happy to explain frame data in fighting games and how it makes the genre what it is.

I am actually quite interested, because when I play fighting games the winner is typically decided by who can spam moves more.

snippy snip

A lot of good info, but most FGs nowadays run on 60 frames. Just a small correction.

 

[Artaneius]

Why do special attacks always require you to memorize button combinations? why don?t they simply do what smash bros does? does it add something to the game?

Because that's pretty much part of the skill required.

People who love fighting games love them exactly because they can show off how they memorized all of a character's moves, combos, counters, counterpicks, infinites, etc.

Source: I am a fighting game addict.

Unlike many fighting game players, however, I also enjoy pseuod-fighting videogames that require little to no skills (the Naruto videogames or the Smash Bros series). They're relaxing.

Smash bros and naruto fighting games do require skill, it?s just that like most normal games there easy to learn but hard to master, unlike most fighting games which are hard to learn and harder to master.

Also if the only reason is bragging rights(which according to everybody else isn?t the case) then that?s a very stupid reason, all it does is make it harder for new players to learn how to play, and fighting games are hard enough to learn already without also having to memorize complicated button inputs.

If everyone was honest and said exactly how they felt why fighting games need to be skilled and hard to play, a good portion of people would of said exactly what he said. People get good in competitive games to be better than others. If you can't accept that fact, then you shouldn't be playing fighting games. You get good to pwn and have bragging rights. That's the way its always been since the arcade days. Adapt to the community but the community should never adapt to the new players.

Hell, just look at my gif. I do combos like this to everyone I play in Melee and other fighting games. If they don't like it then they can quit and deal with me trash talking. When it comes to fighting games, you play to win or don't play at all.

 

[themilo504]

Oke I think I can understand why special moves need to be so complicated, I just wish that it wasn?t so tedious to learn them, having to constantly pause the game to look up move lists just ruins the fun for me.

It just really takes time to learn the motions, but once you do, you'll find that what you learn in one fighting game like Street Fighter can transfer over to, say, King of Fighters. At least in terms of doing input motions.

I still play on an Xbox 360 pad when I play SF4 or KoFXIII on PC and the only problems I have with inputs come from lag, if ever. Been playing fighting games for 5 years since the first BlazBlue. I'm not a high-level player by any means but I can tell I've improved quite a bit.

Seriously, learning a DP/forward down forward/shoryuken motion is difficult at first, but once you learn it on one character, you've essentially learned it on every character that has a move assigned to that motion.

After a few days of practice they (the motions) shouldn't be hugely complicated since so many inputs are shared between characters, but I get where you're coming from. I'm just really used to fighting games by now.

I do agree that the constant recycling of motions does make it a bit easier to learn, I?ve also noticed that focusing on one character makes it a lot easier to learn special moves.

 

[themilo504]

Why do special attacks always require you to memorize button combinations? why don?t they simply do what smash bros does? does it add something to the game?

Because that's pretty much part of the skill required.

People who love fighting games love them exactly because they can show off how they memorized all of a character's moves, combos, counters, counterpicks, infinites, etc.

Source: I am a fighting game addict.

Unlike many fighting game players, however, I also enjoy pseuod-fighting videogames that require little to no skills (the Naruto videogames or the Smash Bros series). They're relaxing.

Smash bros and naruto fighting games do require skill, it?s just that like most normal games there easy to learn but hard to master, unlike most fighting games which are hard to learn and harder to master.

Also if the only reason is bragging rights(which according to everybody else isn?t the case) then that?s a very stupid reason, all it does is make it harder for new players to learn how to play, and fighting games are hard enough to learn already without also having to memorize complicated button inputs.

If everyone was honest and said exactly how they felt why fighting games need to be skilled and hard to play, a good portion of people would of said exactly what he said. People get good in competitive games to be better than others. If you can't accept that fact, then you shouldn't be playing fighting games. You get good to pwn and have bragging rights. That's the way its always been since the arcade days. Adapt to the community but the community should never adapt to the new players.

Hell, just look at my gif. I do combos like this to everyone I play in Melee and other fighting games. If they don't like it then they can quit and deal with me trash talking. When it comes to fighting games, you play to win or don't play at all.

I still think it?s a stupid reason, but yes the entire fighting game community should not adapt to my wishes, however adapting to the wishes of new players in general a bit is probbaly for the best, otherwise fighting games probably won?t have a future.

 

[themilo504]

Snip

Thanks, thats some very useful information.

Extra credits recently did a video about fighting game tutorials, it got me looking for a fighting game with a really good tutorial to explain things like this, I?ve heard that skullgirls has a really good tutorial, however a game about monster girls fighting each other triggers my creepy fetish alarm.

 

[shatnuh]

You know, I'm seeing a disturbing trend of people dismissing Smash as a more laid back game.

No. You are very wrong.

Simple button inputs are absolutely necessary for a game like Smash because of the different win requirements. And they also lose context when you consider that 5 out of 6 legal stages all have platforms, something foreign to traditional 2-Fighters. If Smash had QCF-esque inputs, no one would ever get hit with a special. A big aspect of Smash is escaping-into-trap-baiting. In UMVC3, one touch can be a whole character death, because you are a slave to the standard of boxy stage design. God forbid you get corner trapped, too! Smash requires more directional input based on spacial awareness to preform 0%-Death combos, but they do exist, and are infinitely more hype because they still possess the same input difficulties as any standard fighting game combo, while the opponent possesses so many more escape moves that one would normally have in traditional 2-D fighting games. By allowing for freer character and stage movement, Melee has developed one of the most intense meta-games in FGC history. DP-inputs be damned. For the record, I still play UMVC3, USF4, KOFXIII and SFxTK religiously, and have been playing those games since 94'. It's just...Smash. It's so much MORE. And we still find new technology in this game!

13 years strong, baby. Here's to 13 more.

http://youtu.be/rZIxUjct3uo <- Axe vs Silentwolf, Top 8, EVO 2014



Also, Brawl was whack. Project M = Awesome.

Smash 4 competitively will suck, though.

 

[shatnuh]

Why do special attacks always require you to memorize button combinations? why don?t they simply do what smash bros does? does it add something to the game?

Because that's pretty much part of the skill required.

People who love fighting games love them exactly because they can show off how they memorized all of a character's moves, combos, counters, counterpicks, infinites, etc.

Source: I am a fighting game addict.

Unlike many fighting game players, however, I also enjoy pseuod-fighting videogames that require little to no skills (the Naruto videogames or the Smash Bros series). They're relaxing.

Smash bros and naruto fighting games do require skill, it?s just that like most normal games there easy to learn but hard to master, unlike most fighting games which are hard to learn and harder to master.

Also if the only reason is bragging rights(which according to everybody else isn?t the case) then that?s a very stupid reason, all it does is make it harder for new players to learn how to play, and fighting games are hard enough to learn already without also having to memorize complicated button inputs.

If everyone was honest and said exactly how they felt why fighting games need to be skilled and hard to play, a good portion of people would of said exactly what he said. People get good in competitive games to be better than others. If you can't accept that fact, then you shouldn't be playing fighting games. You get good to pwn and have bragging rights. That's the way its always been since the arcade days. Adapt to the community but the community should never adapt to the new players.

Hell, just look at my gif. I do combos like this to everyone I play in Melee and other fighting games. If they don't like it then they can quit and deal with me trash talking. When it comes to fighting games, you play to win or don't play at all.

Lol! That looks like M2K in the gif, there. Not to say you can't do that, (chaingrabs are really easy once you figure them out) but amirite?

Edit: Put post inside the original quote. Whoops.

 

[Artaneius]

Why do special attacks always require you to memorize button combinations? why don?t they simply do what smash bros does? does it add something to the game?

Because that's pretty much part of the skill required.

People who love fighting games love them exactly because they can show off how they memorized all of a character's moves, combos, counters, counterpicks, infinites, etc.

Source: I am a fighting game addict.

Unlike many fighting game players, however, I also enjoy pseuod-fighting videogames that require little to no skills (the Naruto videogames or the Smash Bros series). They're relaxing.

Smash bros and naruto fighting games do require skill, it?s just that like most normal games there easy to learn but hard to master, unlike most fighting games which are hard to learn and harder to master.

Also if the only reason is bragging rights(which according to everybody else isn?t the case) then that?s a very stupid reason, all it does is make it harder for new players to learn how to play, and fighting games are hard enough to learn already without also having to memorize complicated button inputs.

If everyone was honest and said exactly how they felt why fighting games need to be skilled and hard to play, a good portion of people would of said exactly what he said. People get good in competitive games to be better than others. If you can't accept that fact, then you shouldn't be playing fighting games. You get good to pwn and have bragging rights. That's the way its always been since the arcade days. Adapt to the community but the community should never adapt to the new players.

Hell, just look at my gif. I do combos like this to everyone I play in Melee and other fighting games. If they don't like it then they can quit and deal with me trash talking. When it comes to fighting games, you play to win or don't play at all.

Lol! That looks like M2K in the gif, there. Not to say you can't do that, (chaingrabs are really easy once you figure them out) but amirite?

Edit: Put post inside the original quote. Whoops.

Actually that gif is me. But M2K is one of the pros my playstyle mostly emulates, especially when it comes to Marth. Chaingrabs are actually pretty easy to do over time. Just need to read where the DI will be. I spent a lot of years playing Melee. And I can understand why people would think I just used a gif from a m2k video. But trust me it is me.

 

[shatnuh]

Why do special attacks always require you to memorize button combinations? why don?t they simply do what smash bros does? does it add something to the game?

Because that's pretty much part of the skill required.

People who love fighting games love them exactly because they can show off how they memorized all of a character's moves, combos, counters, counterpicks, infinites, etc.

Source: I am a fighting game addict.

Unlike many fighting game players, however, I also enjoy pseuod-fighting videogames that require little to no skills (the Naruto videogames or the Smash Bros series). They're relaxing.

Smash bros and naruto fighting games do require skill, it?s just that like most normal games there easy to learn but hard to master, unlike most fighting games which are hard to learn and harder to master.

Also if the only reason is bragging rights(which according to everybody else isn?t the case) then that?s a very stupid reason, all it does is make it harder for new players to learn how to play, and fighting games are hard enough to learn already without also having to memorize complicated button inputs.

If everyone was honest and said exactly how they felt why fighting games need to be skilled and hard to play, a good portion of people would of said exactly what he said. People get good in competitive games to be better than others. If you can't accept that fact, then you shouldn't be playing fighting games. You get good to pwn and have bragging rights. That's the way its always been since the arcade days. Adapt to the community but the community should never adapt to the new players.

Hell, just look at my gif. I do combos like this to everyone I play in Melee and other fighting games. If they don't like it then they can quit and deal with me trash talking. When it comes to fighting games, you play to win or don't play at all.

Lol! That looks like M2K in the gif, there. Not to say you can't do that, (chaingrabs are really easy once you figure them out) but amirite?

Edit: Put post inside the original quote. Whoops.

Actually that gif is me. But M2K is one of the pros my playstyle mostly emulates, especially when it comes to Marth. Chaingrabs are actually pretty easy to do over time. Just need to read where the DI will be. I spent a lot of years playing Melee. And I can understand why people would think I just used a gif from a m2k video. But trust me it is me.

Word, good shit. I play Sheik myself, so I know all about dem chaingrabs. Especially against Marths.

Ironically, I model my Sheik after M2K's as well. Though, I've always watched guys like KirbyKaze, Tafo, Fly Aminita and even Isai from way back and tried to incorperate a lot of their game, as well.

 

[Artaneius]

Why do special attacks always require you to memorize button combinations? why don?t they simply do what smash bros does? does it add something to the game?

Because that's pretty much part of the skill required.

People who love fighting games love them exactly because they can show off how they memorized all of a character's moves, combos, counters, counterpicks, infinites, etc.

Source: I am a fighting game addict.

Unlike many fighting game players, however, I also enjoy pseuod-fighting videogames that require little to no skills (the Naruto videogames or the Smash Bros series). They're relaxing.

Smash bros and naruto fighting games do require skill, it?s just that like most normal games there easy to learn but hard to master, unlike most fighting games which are hard to learn and harder to master.

Also if the only reason is bragging rights(which according to everybody else isn?t the case) then that?s a very stupid reason, all it does is make it harder for new players to learn how to play, and fighting games are hard enough to learn already without also having to memorize complicated button inputs.

If everyone was honest and said exactly how they felt why fighting games need to be skilled and hard to play, a good portion of people would of said exactly what he said. People get good in competitive games to be better than others. If you can't accept that fact, then you shouldn't be playing fighting games. You get good to pwn and have bragging rights. That's the way its always been since the arcade days. Adapt to the community but the community should never adapt to the new players.

Hell, just look at my gif. I do combos like this to everyone I play in Melee and other fighting games. If they don't like it then they can quit and deal with me trash talking. When it comes to fighting games, you play to win or don't play at all.

Lol! That looks like M2K in the gif, there. Not to say you can't do that, (chaingrabs are really easy once you figure them out) but amirite?

Edit: Put post inside the original quote. Whoops.

Actually that gif is me. But M2K is one of the pros my playstyle mostly emulates, especially when it comes to Marth. Chaingrabs are actually pretty easy to do over time. Just need to read where the DI will be. I spent a lot of years playing Melee. And I can understand why people would think I just used a gif from a m2k video. But trust me it is me.

Word, good shit. I play Sheik myself, so I know all about dem chaingrabs. Especially against Marths.

Ironically, I model my Sheik after M2K's as well. Though, I've always watched guys like KirbyKaze, Tafo, Fly Aminita and even Isai from way back and tried to incorperate a lot of their game, as well.

Isai was a beast back then. The characters I play competitively are: Fox, Falco, Marth, Capt. Falcon, and Dr. Mario as my low tier.