Question for people Pro-guns....

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cerebus23

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May 16, 2010
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MrHide-Patten said:
Frankly as Dylan Moran once quiped: "Oh no, how could this have happened? Well you've all got guns... and tehy do have a limited number of houshold uses."

But as an Aussie I don't think making them illegal will help the yanks, because then only criminials with the resources will be able to get them, as they do in Aus. Frankly Mankind was buggered when he designed the thing.
Wish i lived in samurai times honestly, before guns had any part in combat.

OT Reminds me i want to rally for a sandbox samurai rpg/mod think that would be something nice to see. well other than counting that mod for mount and blade.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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poodlenoodles said:
i'm going to propose to you a situation that you may or may not have heard already: a man pulls out a gun and shoots someone in an alley. you, the armed vigilante, come running, you see the gun man and so you shoot him. now another vigilante comes around the corner after hearing gunshots, sees you standing over two bodies, so shoots you. another vigilante comes around the corner....
And you go to jail. Because the law already clearly, and in no uncertain terms, accounts for that. You weren't there for the initial shooting, so you don't have enough information to be "reasonably afraid for your life, or the lives of others." Basically, until that guy points the gun at YOU, or otherwise expresses the intent to harm you or someone else, no law gives you the go-ahead to fire.

What you think you understand about actual gun laws is basically just what you've gathered through hearsay, likely from sources slanted against responsible gun ownership and self-defense laws. Sorry, but even the Old West wasn't as "Old West" as people believe from movies.
 

J Tyran

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Dec 15, 2011
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Rule Britannia said:
(though it's more difficult to smuggle weaponry into the UK since it's an island)
This is fallacy I'm afraid, border control is a nightmare when you have thousands upon thousands of small boats in the seas around the UK. Then you have thousands of shipping containers entering each day, only a fraction are ever searched. The cargo ships themselves are also almost impossible to search, it would take weeks to search once properly. Overall 2 billion tons of cargo hits UK ports each year. Good luck searching more than a few percent of that.

Finally you have all the ferry traffic and light aircraft. The UKs borders are as porous as they are anywhere else in the world.
 

Techno Squidgy

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Nov 23, 2010
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I live in the Uk, I don't believe firearms should be outlawed, but the restrictions behind them should definitely be a lot stricter.For instance, that Assault weapons ban you guys had? Good idea. Bring that back. Who on earth needs an automatic weapon beyond the military? That said, with a bit of know-how and some kitchen supplies I could probably cobble together a STEN gun and well, perhaps properly made auto's are better.. (You do NOT want to drop one of those. It'll fire and spin round on the floor till the mag empties.)

If I lived in 'murica I probably would invest in a concealed carry license and a small revolver, because I'm not going to take the chance of being killed by someone else with a gun. Over here, I don't have to worry about much more than a knife, which I could probably knock out of their hands with a bit of luck.

Tightly controlled but available firearms, good. Loosely controlled/Outlawed, bad. Don't want untracked weapons knocking about the place.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Moth_Monk said:
The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US.
And if you lived in Canadia, where guns are legal, you could say the same thing. It's almost like firearms don't have a direct correlation here.

cotss2012 said:
Because there's a difference between "crime" and "gun crime", and they respond in opposite ways to gun laws.

Basically, for every person that you spare from death by bullet wound, you're getting a mugging, a rape, and two deaths by knife wound in return.

We're just better at math than you are.
Not sure if serious.

matrix3509 said:
Also, how does making guns illegal stop CRIMINALS from getting them? Really, I'm dying to know.
I'm curious as to how the option to make them widely available to criminals to easily attain is a better option here.

The thing is, firearm restrictions and bans can not stop all gun crime, no. But they do make it harder for the average joe to get a gun on a whim. If someone is dedicated enough, they will get their hands on one. But then again, if someone is dedicated enough, they will murder someone. We're not about to make murder legal just because "criminals will do it anyway," are we?

Also, also, whom to trust with my life: myself, who knows how to operate a firearm safely and responsibly; or an incompetent police force? I don't think the decision is a hard one.
Mmmm...False dichotomy.
 

poodlenoodles

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Nov 17, 2011
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Dastardly said:
poodlenoodles said:
i'm going to propose to you a situation that you may or may not have heard already: a man pulls out a gun and shoots someone in an alley. you, the armed vigilante, come running, you see the gun man and so you shoot him. now another vigilante comes around the corner after hearing gunshots, sees you standing over two bodies, so shoots you. another vigilante comes around the corner....
And you go to jail. Because the law already clearly, and in no uncertain terms, accounts for that. You weren't there for the initial shooting, so you don't have enough information to be "reasonably afraid for your life, or the lives of others." Basically, until that guy points the gun at YOU, or otherwise expresses the intent to harm you or someone else, no law gives you the go-ahead to fire.

What you think you understand about actual gun laws is basically just what you've gathered through hearsay, likely from sources slanted against responsible gun ownership and self-defense laws. Sorry, but even the Old West wasn't as "Old West" as people believe from movies.
well, in my hypothetical situation, you are now dead, so you wouldn't go to jail.and i was saying that the law permits you to do that, i simply created a situation for all the people who think along the lines of,"how are we going to keep effective justice if we don't all have guns?"
 

Jared Domenico

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May 20, 2011
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Moth_Monk said:
The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.
This is precisely why guns are needed - to kill people who are trying to deprive you of your rights to life, liberty, and property.
 

thethird0611

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Feb 19, 2011
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I dont know if anyone has mentioned this before... but...

A big thing about America is about how we revolted from England, violently at that. So one of the big things about being able to bear arms is the right to revolt against the government if we don't like the way its going. Its not just to protect ourselves from criminals, but its also to protect us from the government. Also, the whole ability to have a militia thing would be kinda useless without firearms.
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Aug 12, 2009
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Criminals do not obtain guns in a way that is legal. Making them illegal would change nothing. Yes, it really is that simple. Ya know, crack is illegal too. So is downloading movies. So is pot. All of those things still happen.

Captcha: Big Brother

Thanks, Captcha.
 

camazotz

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Jul 23, 2009
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If the UK decides to share a significant section of border with Mexico, then we can talk. I live in New Mexico and grew up in Arizona. The border is turning into a dangerous hellhole and I don't fault anyone who lives down there (including my parents) who wish to be armed for personal protection.

I am personally against owning a weapon, but I support the right to own a weapon for others (and reserve the option for myself should the need arise). Almost all gun owners I know are hunters and own weapons suited for hunting. The rest tend to be involved in security, law enforcement, or just plain old like having a firearm.

A side effect of accepting gun ownership is accepting responsibility for what that means. It's a problem I wrestle with; I favor a society where personal responsibility is understood and people can own guns because they can be trusted to be responsibile. Then there's the real world where plenty of people shouldn't be allowed access to a firearm for various reasons. I like the happy middle, where guns can be owned but you need to pass a background check and (ideally) not have some sort of borderline personality disorder or psychopathy. I think we're not quite there yet in the US in terms of regulations, obviously.
 

the doom cannon

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Jun 28, 2012
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Britain doesn't have Mexican drug cartels next door. That's where the illegal guns come from. If we make guns illegal in the US then a HUGE black market will open up fueling the cartels more and more. Please tell me how that's a good idea.
 

J Tyran

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Dec 15, 2011
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the doom cannon said:
Britain doesn't have Mexican drug cartels next door. That's where the illegal guns come from. If we make guns illegal in the US then a HUGE black market will open up fueling the cartels more and more. Please tell me how that's a good idea.
To be honest I often wonder why the US is still pouring resources into the war on terror when you have such a serious problem with gangs and cartels. Gang members need to classified as militias and forced to disarm for a start. Its gone way beyond a civil criminal issue.
 

Owen Robertson

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Jul 26, 2011
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It's a rather long and arduous point that rarely, if ever, gets across. I'll summarize.
I like guns.
But guns are dangerous.
Guns are only dangerous when used by irresponsible people.
So can we make laws and systems that make guns accessible only to responsible people?
No.
Why not?
Because a 236 year old document says we can have them.
... you realize the world was a different place then, right? British invasion was a very real threat. Ensuring that the citizenry was armed almost guaranteed defeat for anyone. Now, you don't need a gun.
Yes I do.
Why?
Because everyone has guns, even irresponsible people like criminals.
... so then can we make guns harder to access?
No.
Because of the document?
Yes.
You're not willing to concede anything, are you?
No.
Fuck.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Techno Squidgy said:
Who on earth needs an automatic weapon beyond the military?
The Assault Weapons Ban had nothing to do with automatic weapons. Well, unless they also happened to be assault weapons. But the two are defined individually, so a gun can be one, both or neither.

While not strictly illegal, automatic weapons are HEAVILY restricted. The FAWB didn't change that, nor did its expiration stop that.

Anyway, more to the point, the ban was unsuccessful because of a common mentality within America: If it doesn't work perfectly, scrap it. Rather than revising the law, they used its failue to stop EVERY crime as a reason to let it expire.
 

Prosis

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May 5, 2011
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Drugs are illegal.
Therefore, only criminals have drugs.
If guns become illegal in America, then only criminals have guns. I know it works in some countries, but I don't really see it as viable here. Unless you have some way to monitor EVERY box that moves into the country, guns will be in the country. All that gun legislation does is determine if only criminals will own guns, or if both criminals and citizens will own guns.

Also, guns aren't just for shooting other people. I live in a rural area of California. We get wild boars here. For those of you who don't know, wild boars grow to be 150+ pounds (about the weight of an adult human). They're agressive, highly territorial, and an invasive species. Their form of foraging rips up the landscape and habitats of other animals. While some animals will prey on their young, the full grown boar has no predators whatsoever. Did I mention they reproduce fast? It only takes about 8 years or so for wild boars to number in the hundreds in an area which used to have none. A gun is the only way to control their population. There is nowhere to cart them. Tranquilizer darts will knock them out, true, but they're slow. A drugged boar still has more than enough time to charge and gouge a man before it succumbs.

There are other wild animals that can be a problem as well. Cougar or wolf attacks on humans are very rare. However, once one of these larger predators preys on a human, it recognizes humans as a viable food source. If it has offspring, it will teach those offspring to prey on humans as well. Therefore, it is absolutely critical that predators which have preyed on a human are killed immediately.
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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yeah you do that Britain. I'll keep my guns so that when some idiot gets a machete I dont have to stand around nad watch for six hours in terror while the police have to stand around using ineefective mace, tasers and batons.

Im going to suspect this is cause of the latest colorado massacre. now, looking at CO, maybe they should get a state ban on them since their citizens dont seem to understand responsibility. but for the other 49 states, guns arent really the great evil people make them to be. and besides, it was britain that started the whole we need guns thing.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Jun 6, 2012
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Almost all crime committed in the U.S. with or through the use of a firearm is done so with illegal and unregistered guns--weapons obtained via illicit channels and held without formal right.

The United States doesn't have a gun problem. It has a people problem.
 

Frankster

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Mar 13, 2009
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I was writing a tl dr post replying to half a dozen people in this thread based on my experiences with certain countries mentioned in this thread (uk, france, mexico, switzerland) and then I realized how pointless it was, each country having its particular circumstances and the population acting in a different way, and the futility of trying to communicate personal experience to people who are in sarcasm defence mode and don't want to consider world is more complex then they think, especially in regard to certain countries (if you're using mexico or france or heck even switzerland to argue for or against gun control, you don't understand those countries or why gun control/non gun control works/doesnt work/ in those countries).

I'll just answer one guy as i feel there is opportunity to exchange views without being confrontational.

Omechron said:
How's your not-gun crime? I'd rather be shot than beaten to death with a cricket bat.
I'd rather face knives and baseball bats then guns any time tbh :)
From where I stand i have trouble understanding why people present the melee weapons that need the agressor to get in close and do the deed himself as worst then the impersonal ranged weapon where you can kill people simply by squeezing a trigger. Maybe because in my view i'm always unarmed so if anyone has a gun it will be the one trying to mug me, whereas americans here imagine themselves armed and loaded?
 
Jun 23, 2008
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The topic of gun control does come out quite a bit with every spree shooting, as do many of the arguments. According to some statistics guns are dangerous.[footnote]The chances of a handgun killing its owner is twice as much as the chances of it killing an assailant. (The chances of it doing either is fairly remote. Most families with handguns survive without incident.)[/footnote] Our crime rate with guns in the US is ridiculously high compared to that of the rest of the industrialized world (even those with rampant private gun ownership). It's all true.

And yeah, there's a lot of common counter arguments: guns have uses too, especially against vermin and hungry megafauna, that the police are short staffed, that our government gets rambunctious when they're not nervous about someone trying to shoot them out of spite. That there's a gun culture, and changing that would be a problem. Indeed, the United States has had a frontier most of its existence, and that has given us an individualist culture. We still have plenty of rural and downright wild areas and our institutionalized hazard control services cannot possibly cover all occasions.

Myself, I'd even go on to argue that not only do we not have enough police to intercept crime (or even carry all cases through the justice system), but recent events regarding phone cameras, regarding child-run lemonade stands, regarding the arrests of spontaneous dancers, regarding the Occupy raids and, heck, regarding the Megaupload arrests have made it clear that the police are not (necessarily) our friends. They segregate themselves from us civilians, and are more interested in throwing people in jail than seeing justice done, and they go where they are directed by lobby-controlled administrators, not where they are necessarily needed. So, for now, it appears the long arm of the law is hedging towards the service of tyrants than of the people.

But all this is moot when it comes to gun control, because the whole reason we would restrict access to firearms is to allegedly protect us from ourselves. And people not only need to engage in dangerous activities for the purposes of industry (agrarian or otherwise), but we also like to engage in dangerous activities. Perhaps crazy, perhaps stupid, but definitely thrillseekers, we jump out of airplanes, and go undersea deep enough that we have to depressurize for weeks. We climb rocks and go to parts of the world where we have no business being. Just to see it. Just to be there. And sometimes we like to appreciate the instruments of warfare and lob some artillery at some old wrecked cars.

The question eventually has to be raised: What is the determining factor that that makes one dangerous thing acceptable, and another dangerous thing not? The ability to kill others? Then cars would be outlawed, as they cause more death and injury per capita, per car or per owner (however you want to measure it). Intent of a device? Well then you start getting into thought crime, and this logic breaks down comes when civilian weapons are more effective despite their multipurpose nature (better range, do more damage, more accurate), than military ones.[footnote]An designated marksmen [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle] for that intermediate range between ordinary riflemen and snipers.[/footnote] We can't regulate things just because someone thinks their existence is evil, otherwise a lot of fringe culture, from AD&D to Rock & Roll to Pogo dancing to video games become subject to regulation because someone finds it distasteful and thinks our kids will be corrupted under its influence.

Incidents such as the won't stop this. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting] and it is impossible to regulate enough to stop someone determined to do a lot of damage.

The sad truth is, the US has reacted to consequences [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11] of having done so. Having not endured war in our homeland (not since the era of mechanized warfare, at least) we haven't been able to take terrorist attacks in stride the way it often is in Europe. In the meantime, just as the victims of the 9/11 attacks were hardly a blip in the statistical safety records of airlines, the Aurora cinema shooting will hardly be an anomaly in the violent crime statistics in the United States, the highest rates are due to domestic incidents and gang warfare. And if you're truly looking to save lives (rather than react to the most recent drama), heart disease, cancer, respiratory illness and strokes are killing us far, far more than bullets.

238U
 

Naeras

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Mar 1, 2011
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cotss2012 said:
Because there's a difference between "crime" and "gun crime", and they respond in opposite ways to gun laws.

Basically, for every person that you spare from death by bullet wound, you're getting a mugging, a rape, and two deaths by knife wound in return.

We're just better at math than you are.
I'd like to see this claim backed up, because I'm fairly certain US rates of both gun crimes and "other" crimes are higher per capita than any other country in the developed world.

edit: for the record, I'm fairly certain the numbers I've seen indicate that there's no clear relation between gun accessibility and crime rates, neither in a positive and negative direction. I'd still be for increased gun regulation in the states, but that's primarily to avoid accidents from improper handling of the weapon.