Question for people Pro-guns....

[Nyaliva]

I don't like guns but that's because I grew up without them and survived just fine. Also their main purpose is to kill people and no-one wants that. Frankly, I find the idea of gun-glorification (yeah, that's a word now) in the US extremely frustrating, partially because it's just silly and partially because I know it'll never go away. But, for what it's worth, here are my ideas on the main arguments for and against gun control.

"Guns are bad and should all be banned!"
Definitely, but it's never going to happen. What happened when they banned marijuana? Did people stop smoking it? No. Although guns are much more expensive to make than marijuana, the market will never go away. Not to mention how old a tradition hunting is. It's not the nicest sport but people do still involve themselves in it.

"We need guns to protect ourselves from people who would want to hurt us with them!"
Well that's an okay point, so long as their is sufficient training and education in their proper use as well as when and where to fire to immobilise a threat. But even with that, guns aren't a magic sheild. If a person shoots you in the head, even if you have the gun in hand, you won't be able to protect yourself, you'll be dead. You may say "well at least someone could eventually stop them" and to that I say "Did anyone stop the gunman at Colorado?" People's natural response to someone pulling a firearm is and always has been duck and cover. Or in some cases scream and run around like a lunatic. Besides, the people who go on these shooting rampages will target somewhere where people aren't ready so they can have the best chance of survival, and to have the greatest impact. The only way to prevent this is to have everyone carry firearms all the time and that just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

As a final point, I do think guns are bad but I don't expect everyone in America to have a collective epiphany on the matter. I would suggest something like what Canada has, still hunting firearms but nothing that is made for the express purpose of killing another human being. But I mean, I live in Australia, I haven't seen or heard a firearm my whole life and I don't think anyone I know has either. Guns aren't totally banned (I think) but there's no "We need to have guns to protect ourselves!" because no-one has guns. Shootings still happen and it's extremely out of the blue and tragic but even if we were like America, the chance that someone there would have had the "luck" to be carrying a gun and could stop them is pretty low.

Sorry for the long post!

 

[Da Orky Man]

snip

a few people have already said it, but I'm a be some what less subtle about it

"your not an American, you wouldn't understand"

we are despite similar languages, TOTALLY different groups of people. its kinda hard wired into every thing.

that's one reason anyway

another is, it won't change anything. you can take away guns, and as one would expect, gun crime will dip, but the crime rate it self won't change, they will just find other ways to kill people.

sides, dosen't the UK have an over all higher crime rate then the US? fix your own country before you ***** at mine

The USA have 730 people per 100000 in prison. The UK has 156. I know the US tends to be a bit more prison-happy than most, but that's a hell of a difference.

Source:
http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate

 

[dakenbake]

Even if no American wants to give up the right to shoot animals because it's 'fun' or even to have one to defend their family, could we not at least agree that the ability to legally buy military assault rifles and combat shotguns is kind of a bad thing? The clues are in the names; they aren't called defense rifles or sport shotguns.

Some guns can exist for other purposes than to make murderers' lives easier, but when a weapon has been specifically designed by arms companies to give soldiers the edge in killing other similarly equipped enemies then ownership by a civilian becomes pretty questionable, even if the purpose of ownership is just to have it in the house so you can whip it out and rub one out over the mighty orphan generator you own.

There is no real reason for civilians to own or be able to own those kinds of guns; the best you can say is that you find finely honed instruments of death physically arousing. Own a shotgun, or a rifle, or even a semi-automatic pistol. Should you be allowed to bury a 2 megaton nuclear warhead under your house in case someone tries to rob you and you can say 'watch out, I have a nuke' or is that considered excessive? How about a tactical nuke? They're still technically arms, so as far as I can tell the constitution of the US is cool with it.

 

[Wadders]

Handguns and semi-automatic and automatic rifles are illegal.

I don't know the particulars of UK firearms legislation, but this has to be wrong, or there's a regional difference between NI and the rest of the UK. We have a semi-automatic rifle and 2 handguns (1 semi-auto, 1 revolver) all very legally owned.

Nope, it's correct.

The only semi-automatic rifles that are permitted on a Fire Arms Certificate are .22, anything over that is illegal, as are handguns over .22 that are not blackpowder, used for humane dispatch purposes, or fitted with a long barrel (even then they cannot be automatic/ self loading.)

In NI however, you must have different legislation to the rest of the UK for those to be legal if your rifle is a center-fire. Not sure what your laws say, but I might have a look

 

[TAdamson]

Also, how does making guns illegal stop CRIMINALS from getting them? Really, I'm dying to know.

Also, also, whom to trust with my life: myself, who knows how to operate a firearm safely and responsibly; or an incompetent police force? I don't think the decision is a hard one.

It doesn't. It does make them substantially harder to get. That said Anders Breivik obtained his even though Noway has quite strict gun laws.

What stricter guns laws do is reduce gun accidents. The same thing could be achieved by forcing people to be more responsible with their guns (ie locking them in gun safes, not dicking around with them, not storing them loaded etc.)


http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2012/07/geography-gun-violence/2655/

 

[optimusjamie]

The way I see it, it's not the gun itself that's the problem- it's the person using it. It's impossible to stop criminals from getting guns- if somebody needs a gun to commit a crime, it's generally easier for them to get it illegally. In the UK, I would need to go through background checks and psychological evaluation to be able to get a rifle (shotgun licenses are easier to get). The thing is, once I pass this, that's it- I just get a check-up from the police every once in a while to ensure I'm still staying in the law when it comes to storage and security. There are no regular checks for psychological problems- even if I am licensed to own a rifle. I can't comment for anywhere else, but the UK should make gun owners have regular psychological checks in case they do go on a rampage with legal firearms.
That said, I am pro-gun in the sense that people who are sane and sensible should be allowed to own guns if that's what they want. The problem here lies in people thinking that 'pro-gun' means they want every man and his dog to be running around with an AK-47.

 

[PZF]

Cars, Doctors, Rope, Knives, Water, Heat, Fire, Fists, Metal Bars, Wire, Planes, Rocks, Glass, Bow and Arrow, Electricity, Wild Animals, Sharpened Objects, Plastic Bags, Pens and Pencils, Sticks, Food, Cliffs, Nails, Tools, Feet.

Just a small list of dangerous things. Should we ban all these things too so no one can die from these as well?

Open question to Aussies, Europeans, Brits, Ect... You hear a knock on your door at 3AM, you open it to find a man asking to use your phone as his car is broken down. You do not know this man. He could truly be in trouble or are 2 of his friends waiting for the door to open enough to burst in and rob you? A situation that can happen to anyone, anywhere.

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

Should we ban alcohol again because of manslaughter cases? Should we ban cigarettes because second hand smoke can cause cancer? Should we ban forks because someone may go out and fork people to death?

It's a matter of freedom, and there's this whole thing about having to be capable of rising up if the government decides to go all power-hungry on us. Furthermore does everyone who owns or wants to own a gun plan on killing someone? If you really want to kill someone you'll find a way with or without guns. It'd cost me about 30-50 dollars to craft a make-shift bow strong enough to punch it's way into your chest cavity, what are you going to do to stop me when I kick your door down and fire an arrow into your chest?

 

[FFHAuthor]

Civil rights are protected by law, in fact they where protected by law several hundred years before North America was even discovered by Europeans.

I've heard this fallacy before about the Magna Carta and English Civil Rights. You might want to take a minute and remember just whose rights the Magna Carta addresses, and just where power comes from in England.

 

[Mr_RogersCU13]

Really all this argument is moot. My pro-gun argument basically boils down to this: it is a right guaranteed us by our Constitution. End of debate. This right is not government's to give or take away, they are given by God, or nature if you don't believe in God. A person has the natural right to have the ability to defend him/herself or to shoot cans/animals/targets to their hearts content.

 

[Lunar Templar]

The USA have 730 people per 100000 in prison. The UK has 156. I know the US tends to be a bit more prison-happy than most, but that's a hell of a difference.

Source:
http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate

interesting,
but,
people in prison =/= crime rate, as people don't always go to jail from crimes committed for different reasons.(like, not getting caught for one)

so ... way to dodge the question

 

[Dany]

Why the hell would you even try to ban guns when all that accomplishes is putting guns in the hands of criminals while disarming responsible people?

Just try banning guns and you will see the crime rate skyrocket.

 

[illas]

Because Americans suddenly become stupid the instant someone utters the word "freedom".

Seriously, in my experience, Americans will defend and protect almost anything no matter how dangerous, ridiculous, or unfair it is simply on the grounds of "we're the land of the free and people must have the right to do x/y/z".

Rational argument, decades worth of statistics and common sense have minimal relevance.

 

[Xangba]

snip

a few people have already said it, but I'm a be some what less subtle about it

"your not an American, you wouldn't understand"

we are despite similar languages, TOTALLY different groups of people. its kinda hard wired into every thing.

that's one reason anyway

another is, it won't change anything. you can take away guns, and as one would expect, gun crime will dip, but the crime rate it self won't change, they will just find other ways to kill people.

sides, dosen't the UK have an over all higher crime rate then the US? fix your own country before you ***** at mine

The USA have 730 people per 100000 in prison. The UK has 156. I know the US tends to be a bit more prison-happy than most, but that's a hell of a difference.

Source:
http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate

The United States has some of the longest incarcerations, especially with drug cases. We have so many in prison comparatively because the same people that were sentenced five years ago for drugs are still there when someone gets sent for whatever other reason now.

 

[Nimzabaat]

How about because we do not want to end up like Australia?

Wild pigs in the US- 4,000,000
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5313597.pdf
Wild pigs in Australia- 23,000,000
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/3308375/Australia-has-more-wild-pigs-than-humans.html

Wild pigs already do billions of dollars in damage every year in the US and we hunters are the only thing that actually prevents them from taking over like they have in Australia (and that is not the only species that is breeding out of control in Australia). In addition to that is just general pest control.

Or how about because we still have dangerous (not just annoying) animals in the US like wild bear- http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Alaska-woman-recounts-terrifying-ordeal-with-bear-3707497.php#ixzz20eC0iwhF

Or how about because we feel the need to protect ourselves? A friend of mine lives on the border, you can literally see the border from his home (or at least the place where the sign that is supposed to mark the border is). Drug runners regularly use his property to smuggle drugs in. If he called the police it would take them 20 minutes or better to get to him. Do you think it is a good idea for him to be disarmed? And before anyone says it, he cannot move, his grandparents bought the property, he cannot afford to purchase a new home, and no one in their right minds would buy that property. Then you have a friend of mine who was raped. She carries a gun on her because she doesn?t want it to happen again. And of course you have incidents like this- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31416285/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

There are other things but let us focus on the economics for a moment.

The basic fact is that attacking the gun industry is harmful to the world?s economy. You may not realize this but your police force and military practices with ammunition. That ammunition is cheap because the US produces a tons of it and exports. Either practice goes down or costs go up.

Plus, you are talking about tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of jobs. You have gun shop owners, ammunition manufacturers (both large companies and small businesses), unrefined resource providers, military contractors, etc. Where do you think the materials to make these firearms and ammunition come from? What about all of the leather used in holsters? Where do you think the computer chips used in gun owners tech comes from? And on.

Your attack on the gun industry would send shock waves throughout the entire economy. There is no major part of the US and world economy that is not somehow connected to the firearms industry. How many ranchers are going to lose money when the demand for leather goes down? How many businesses built around firearms companies are going to survive if the largest business in the area goes under? How many mining companies are going to feel the effects of a fall in the brass market? How many ranges are going to go under and thereby force Police Departments to build actual ranges and how much money will that cost? Etc.

Then, in addition to that, you are going to have to get rid of the firearms somehow. Ignoring the how for a moment, let us instead focus on the cost to do that. First you are going to destroy hundreds of multimillion dollar businesses directly unless you pay them off (lots of money there). Then you have the 80 million gun owners in the US. If ever gun owner owns $300 in guns and firearms accessories that equals $24,000,000,000 you have to pay them (unless you are just going to take the guns and say fuck you to every gun owner). Of course that number is vastly underestimated. I myself own several thousand dollars in firearms and accessories and I am rather young. Plus, most bolt action rifles cost over $300, most semis cost over $600, and most pistols cost over $400.

In other words, firearms are necessary in the US and it would cause a huge harm to get rid of them. Not to mention the basic fact that it is impossible to get rid of them. 300,000,000 guns do not just disappear because you want them to (not to mention all of the guns outside of the US and all of the illegal guns).

BTW guns are not illegal in the UK, just heavily regulated.

I just find it a shame that a society has become so heavily reliant on an object which sole purpose is to kill other things. So much money pumped into an industry that could be put better use else where which could help further the human race or cure world wide problems.

Just because something has an industry behind it doesn't mean it is necessary. The United States is still building nuclear weapons even though they will never ever use them. There's no point to having something so drop billions upon billions of dollars on it. I believe the Onion referred to that as the "money hole". If you don't dump money in the "money hole" you're un-American.

Anyways... I'm not for getting rid of guns, or even stronger regulations. I just think that if you commit a crime with a gun, or with a gun on your person, you should get the death penalty. If you fry a guy for jay-walking with a firearm, it'll make having them much less attractive. Bearing in mind of course that shooting someone in self-defense is not a crime.

 

[Dany]

Threads like this make me wonder if Americans should start being more xenophobic towards people from other countries.

The US is a melting pot, but even Americans can only handle so much ignorance and prejudice from foreigners.

Stay classy, Europeans.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

How about because we do not want to end up like Australia?

Wild pigs in the US- 4,000,000
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5313597.pdf
Wild pigs in Australia- 23,000,000
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/3308375/Australia-has-more-wild-pigs-than-humans.html

Wild pigs already do billions of dollars in damage every year in the US and we hunters are the only thing that actually prevents them from taking over like they have in Australia (and that is not the only species that is breeding out of control in Australia). In addition to that is just general pest control.

I've met Australian pig hunters.

The guys I met did their work with big dogs and even bigger knives, even before the firearm restrictions came into effect after the Port Arthur massacre. Easier to sell the meat or so I'm told, maybe a man simply can't use a rifle properly when they've got balls the size of coconuts dangling between their thighs. To my knowledge they're probably still out there, doing it wherever and whenever a quid can stand to be made of it. Ironically enough the reason why the hunter I met had given up on his sport had nothing to do with a lack of guns, but a chronic shortage of pigs.

You see relying on recreational hunters to control Australia's feral pig population quickly runs into a very real problem. Our country is so fuck-off ridiculously huge, and our population so densely concentrated within our coastal urban enclaves, that getting the recreational hunters to the pigs in significant numbers to both contain and reduce the population of feral pigs quickly runs into problems of time, money and logistics, before you can so much say tasty, salty bacon. Add to that easy access to kangaroo populations, a species that doesn't only bounce like a rabbit but breeds like them too, and Australian hunters don't need to travel vast distances to plug a bit of lead into a furry critter.

 

[Alon Doron]

Hmm. As an Israeli I'd like to express my opinion on this subject, but I can't seem to find a simple explanation of whether and to what extent is the gun regulation in the U.S.. Sorry about my ignorance and all, but is everyone (in the states which allow so) allowed to carry a gun? Is there any kind of licencing involved?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Griffolion]

Right to bear arms is something that has been part of America since its founding. It symbolises freedom through violent revolution, which is precisely how they won it. It will be hard to take that away from a country who's culture has it so deeply embedded.

Criminals in my country (UK) still manage to get hold of guns despite them being generally illegal. Not only that but our knife crime is utterly horrendous. Sure, you can block certain methods of killing, but if killing is going to happen, it's going to happen. They'll just resort to the next common denominator, knives, which are a whole different ball game from a control & regulation stand point since your average kitchen knife is lethal.

I'm actually incredibly impressed by the US population's handling of their gun culture. Almost half the population of the US own a gun in their household, and there are just under 9K gun related deaths a year, markedly reduced from years passed.

You get these people who are mad/evil/deranged/psychologically ill, whatever you wish to label them as per your own leaning, who will cause the whole system to be called into question as a typical knee jerk reaction. Let's just weather it and move on as always.