Hmm, thanks for the post, I hadn't thought about defending myself from an old lady carrying an arsenallacktheknack said:
Question for people Pro-guns....
- Thread starter Moth_Monk
- Start date
Uh, eradicating a pest will lead to less economic losses (less damage done to crops by eating/treading on young plants etc), so money would actually be on the line.. And wild animals can be aggressive if you're sharing their territory..fletch_talon said:
If you could find a way to strip guns off every single person, criminals too, then I'd consider it. Banning guns for law abiding citizens won't stop criminals from getting weapons that they most likely get illegally anyways.
So no, until all criminals are stripped of their weapons i'll continue to practice my rights as an American and keep my hand gun. It's helped me once already fend off a mugging, and it'll help me in a life or death situation. Although I hope i'm never put in that position.
So no, until all criminals are stripped of their weapons i'll continue to practice my rights as an American and keep my hand gun. It's helped me once already fend off a mugging, and it'll help me in a life or death situation. Although I hope i'm never put in that position.
Because, the UK has low gun crime for various reasons, and just because the gun crime is lower, doesn't mean anything. Violent crime rates are far higher in the UK than the US, it's a cultural thing. Just like the violent crime in Switzerland is phenomenally low, despite having near universal firearm ownership. Finland, which has some of the least strict gun control in Europe also has one of the lowest violent crime rates, and Japan which is even stricter gun control than the UK has a very high violent crime rate as well. These are mostly unrelated to gun control, it's a cultural thing. Studies within the US have shown that the more people within a county who legally carry firearms, the lower the violent crime rates. Getting rid of guns won't reduce crime, especially since the vast majority of gun crime is committed by people who don't legally own guns(US).Moth_Monk said:Yep this thread had to get posted.
Although it only occurred to me after reading some of the pro-gun Americans responses in comments sections/threads to you-know-what
The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US. I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that. With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?
The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.
Captcha: hunky-dory
I <3 Captcha's irony.
Also, you have to understand that a huge number of people in the US own guns for various perfectly legal reasons. A great many private security workers have them for work, also there are a massive number of hunters and sport shooters. It is estimated that more than 70 million Americans own guns, and about 150,000 people were murdered in 2009 total. So, by restricting gun ownership, you are punishing over 69,850,000 who did absolutely nothing illegal, which is a violation of habeas corpus. And you are doing this when evidence is very inconclusive as to how this would effect violent crime rates, particularly as many studies suggest the violent crime rate would increase.
Our entire nation was founded on ideals. The ideal of personal freedom that cannot be taken away, unless you have done something illegal. The ideal that your rights cannot be taken away without due process of law. The ideal of in-born rights, which include the right to carry firearms. The ideal that our own government will eventually try to take away our rights, and that when that time comes we deserve the chance to defend ourselves through force. Now, regardless of what you think of these ideals, they are a part of America, and banning firearms is directly counter to each of the ideals I listed above.
All in all, there is not sufficient evidence to show that stricter gun control laws lead to fewer violent crimes, or even murders. Several comprehensive international and domestic studies have shown there to be no statistically significant correlation.
And frankly, the demonization of firearms is fucking ludicrous from a common sense prospective as well. Firearms don't make you a murderer, a murderer kills someone by their own choice.
It is mind-boggling to me that so few people seem to get this. In 2010, there were over 35,000 gun deaths in the US, almost 2/3 of these were suicides. Now, someone who is willing to use a firearm to commit suicide is certainly willing to use a knife or an overdose. so, not counting suicides, there were 11,615 or so gun deaths. Contrast this with over 32,000 deaths caused by cars. Almost 11,000 deaths were caused by drunk driving alone in 2009. Tobacco use causes an estimated 443,000 deaths every year. The common estimates for deaths caused by obesity in the US are somewhere around 300,000 every year. Hell, almost 200,000 people die every year in hospitals from errors by the staff. Twice as many children die playing football(American) in school than die from guns.
Yet, no one is clamoring for a ban on driving, or tobacco(at least not anyone in politics), or alcohol, twinkies, or school football. Further, the prohibition era and the war on drugs have shown rather conclusively that bans on something in the US are virtually useless, and may even increase their use. No one is clamoring for increased education or oversight for medical staff.
I suppose that is all reasons why there is no good reason to ban guns, not that there is good reason to keep them, and that's the difference between the UK and the US. In the US, we believe you need to have good reason to take something away from a person, not a good reason to give it to them.
tl;dr(god i hate tl;dr). The UK has fewer gun deaths than the US, but despite having 1/5 the population of the US, they have more than 1/2 the violent crime. There is no conclusive evidence that stricter gun control leads to fewer violent crimes or murders. Banning firearms would punish 70 million Americans who have done nothing illegal. Gun bans run directly counter to several ideals upon which this country was founded and in which that most Americans still believe today. Firearms don't murder, people do, that's why it's called homoside, and not gunocide. There are a great many causes of preventable deaths that kill far far far more Americans every year than guns, but there is very little or no push to illegalize these things. In the US, you need a good reason to take something away from someone, you don't need a good reason to give it to them.
However, if you really need a good reason to let the public have guns, firearms are used in self-defense more than 2.5 million times per year in the US, about 42.8 times more than they are used to take life, including suicides(as concluded by anti-gun research).
I'll leave you with these facts: "More guns, less crime. In the decade of the 1990s, the number of guns in this country increased by roughly 40 million?even while the murder rate decreased by almost 40% percent.7 Accidental gun deaths in the home decreased by almost 40 percent as well.(8)"
"A Research 2000 poll found that 85% of Americans would find it appropriate for a principal or teacher to use "a gun at school to defend the lives of students" to stop a school massacre.(14)"
"Gun-free England not such a utopia after all. According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.(18)"
http://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm
I could go on, but I think I've made my point, and I'll stop there for the sake of brevity.
I presume you knew I meant "for self defense", and were being sarcastic?EclipseoftheDarkSun said:Hmm, thanks for the post, I hadn't thought about defending myself from an old lady carrying an arsenallacktheknack said:
Not to burst your bubble, but it's kind of useless without tanks, carrier battle groups, and nuclear weapons too. It's a nice principle, which just doesn't hold up when you consider the modern military vs the equipment available to a citizen.thethird0611 said:
Congratulations, you threw out all credibility you may have had.fletch_talon said:
You can't say "leave this conversation" because you don't like their preconceived notions. That makes you worse than any inflammatory commenter.
The people that is a concern to, and hunters, do not necessarily overlap, though.EclipseoftheDarkSun said:
Yeah, cuz accusing the other guy of fondling his AR-10 isn't biased at all. Don't call people out on bias when your entire argument is based on bias. People in glass houses and all that.fletch_talon said:
I guess we just have to change our ways in other ways.
In other words, everywhere we go needs to have increased security everywhere.
In fact, everyone should be given a gun.
They should have the holster welded to their hips and
squelch their lips because nothing speaks
louder than a barrel.
In fact we should forgo our lips by teaching our children that they're only as good as their aim and
proclaim that if they died to a bullet then they did something wrong
because the other person clearly had the right to fire
when that argument got a little too heated.
We should always have to watch what we say
not out of respect for another's feelings,
but out of fear for the cases they're packing.
We should nullify our fists and trade in our pens for semi-automatics
because ink doesn't run as smoothly as blood does,
and, DAMN, we should put a gun in everyone's hand
because the fear of death is strong enough to stop every sane person dead in their tracks,
so at least we'll know who the crazy ones are by virtue of who's left standing
once the smoke clears from the town square turned okay corral.
We should let citizens know that their life
isn't worth as much as their peace of mind.
We should forget that a child who'd only seen
the moon fill up three times died
because it's easier to forget than to answer why.
We should forego facts and forget
that every gun used just recently was legally purchased.
We should be wary of every click we hear
Because this is the year
We decided to scrap facts
In favor of forgetting, yet
Some people will never forget
How their friends used to laugh
Before their voices were capped.
(Yes, this is hyperbole, and I know that taking away guns won't really solve anything. Our culture is kind of sick, and I don't know what the answers are, but we need discussion to occur. What will happen in the next few weeks is a campaign aimed at making people forget about what happened with tons of distracting factors. Conversations won't take place, so nothing will get the chance to change.)
In other words, everywhere we go needs to have increased security everywhere.
In fact, everyone should be given a gun.
They should have the holster welded to their hips and
squelch their lips because nothing speaks
louder than a barrel.
In fact we should forgo our lips by teaching our children that they're only as good as their aim and
proclaim that if they died to a bullet then they did something wrong
because the other person clearly had the right to fire
when that argument got a little too heated.
We should always have to watch what we say
not out of respect for another's feelings,
but out of fear for the cases they're packing.
We should nullify our fists and trade in our pens for semi-automatics
because ink doesn't run as smoothly as blood does,
and, DAMN, we should put a gun in everyone's hand
because the fear of death is strong enough to stop every sane person dead in their tracks,
so at least we'll know who the crazy ones are by virtue of who's left standing
once the smoke clears from the town square turned okay corral.
We should let citizens know that their life
isn't worth as much as their peace of mind.
We should forget that a child who'd only seen
the moon fill up three times died
because it's easier to forget than to answer why.
We should forego facts and forget
that every gun used just recently was legally purchased.
We should be wary of every click we hear
Because this is the year
We decided to scrap facts
In favor of forgetting, yet
Some people will never forget
How their friends used to laugh
Before their voices were capped.
(Yes, this is hyperbole, and I know that taking away guns won't really solve anything. Our culture is kind of sick, and I don't know what the answers are, but we need discussion to occur. What will happen in the next few weeks is a campaign aimed at making people forget about what happened with tons of distracting factors. Conversations won't take place, so nothing will get the chance to change.)
I live in America and I've never heard a gunshot, hell the only time I've ever seen a gun was on a police officers hip.
It's not about making guns illegal, before you know it the government will start making sharp knives illegal, it's about making sure only certain people can get them. In my state (New Jersey) it's nearly impossible for people to get their hands on one, if you have a criminal record they wont even consider approving you, that's how it should be in my opinion.
We're not children who need the government to tell us what we can and can't do.
It's not about making guns illegal, before you know it the government will start making sharp knives illegal, it's about making sure only certain people can get them. In my state (New Jersey) it's nearly impossible for people to get their hands on one, if you have a criminal record they wont even consider approving you, that's how it should be in my opinion.
We're not children who need the government to tell us what we can and can't do.
I have never heard a gunshot in my life either and i live in the US (besides the one time i went to a gun range). I do not own a gun and will never own a gun because honestly im a terrible shot. If im trying to shoot you, you are probably the safest person within a 500 foot radius. I also live in a rather poor city (Buffalo, NY. A city that has been shrinking and declining for literally a century ever since the Erie Canal lost its importance)Moth_Monk said:Yep this thread had to get posted.
Although it only occurred to me after reading some of the pro-gun Americans responses in comments sections/threads to you-know-what
The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US. I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that. With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?
The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.
Captcha: hunky-dory
I <3 Captcha's irony.
That said, I still support the right to bear arms. It is in the constitution. Although i do NOT support militia style armaments. Yes, a part of the reason to bear arms is in case our government becomes corrupt and the people have to overthrow it. However, with airplanes and tanks and missiles, small arms are not going to do crap in a revolution. Therefore there is no real reason to allow people to carry a virtual armory, especially since it can still do damage against the regular populace.
That said, banning guns does not help. In a crime of passion, they will use whatever weapon is on hand anyways. As for criminals, they will always have weapons. So who does this help? no one. Who does it hurt? Law abiding citizens. And keep in mind you guys are on an ISLAND. Even if we did ban guns they would be smuggled into the US, just like drugs.
Not to mention you can not exactly tout the UK as a prime example of crime when you guys recently went through a pretty horrific RIOT. Hell your country is on the verge of rioting after the world cup nearly every year.
Also the deep south would go apeshit.
As an american who isn't particularly pro-gun, I have a few things to say; one is that the constitutional right to bear arms is as part of a well-regulated militia. It doesn't say that your average chap has the right to carry a gun, unless of course he wants to join the national guard or something.
That said, I can appreciate that some people may feel the need to have weapons for hunting or self-defense, but you shouldn't be able to just walk into a store and buy a gun (i.e. the way things are now in some states. Pretty sure Colorado is one of them) without a licence that requires some form of psych eval.
Finally, there should be either an outright ban or very heavy regulations on weapons like the AR-15 the shooter used on Friday. It's a semiautomatic assault rifle that takes 5.56 STANAG magazines; guns like that are neither hunting weapons nor something someone needs for self-defense. Guns like that are for shooting people. There is no reason your average citizen should be able to buy one without a lot of examinations and paperwork.
Sports shooters: I'm sorry about advocating taking away your toys. Try and find a hobby with less unfortunate corollaries.
That said, I can appreciate that some people may feel the need to have weapons for hunting or self-defense, but you shouldn't be able to just walk into a store and buy a gun (i.e. the way things are now in some states. Pretty sure Colorado is one of them) without a licence that requires some form of psych eval.
Finally, there should be either an outright ban or very heavy regulations on weapons like the AR-15 the shooter used on Friday. It's a semiautomatic assault rifle that takes 5.56 STANAG magazines; guns like that are neither hunting weapons nor something someone needs for self-defense. Guns like that are for shooting people. There is no reason your average citizen should be able to buy one without a lot of examinations and paperwork.
Sports shooters: I'm sorry about advocating taking away your toys. Try and find a hobby with less unfortunate corollaries.
Hey? How does that work? You seem to be supporting and condemning the right at the same time.Ryotknife said:
...
Personally, I've always interpreted it as meaning everyone has the right to military service, and that DADT was unconstituional. Not to say the US can legalise guns somewhere else in their laws, just that it's not the relevant part.
To put it simply I support gun rights because making guns illegal does nothing. If someone decides they want a weapon to do illegal things making them illegal simply wont affect that because if people followed rules like that guns would never be a problem. A armed population is a safer population because they can protect themselves from people who will not follow laws. If someone invents a device that makes it impossible to operate a gun within the borders of a country without being part of the military or police then that would be a debate. Until then go guns.
how many borders does Australia share with neighbors? We outlawed drugs, guess what? they are still everywhere. Do you have ANY idea how broad our border with Canada is? Most of it is undefended too. Hell, drugs keep getting through from Mexico which is a much smaller border with significantly more forces.Zenode said:
Even if outlawing guns was a magic bullet (pardon the pun), which nearly every study has shown otherwise, we could not enforce it. And like i said, the deep south would go apeshit because guns are a large part of their culture.
But hey, im sure a CIVIL WAR would be preferable to a few crimes.....
So tell me, why should we outlaw firearms when it will be impossible to enforce AND has potentially harsh backlashes?
Not seeing the logic in it.
I <3 Captcha's irony.
2. we are bordered with mexico which is 40% drug state
3. most of out murders with hand guns are gang on gang
4. 2 million uses of a gun used in self defense are reported EACH YEAR, with another estimated at 2.5 going unreported, 99% of these dont require a single shot, this right here trumps all arguments because the good outways the bad.
5. assault weapons which is what will be the big issue, is both an ambiguous term and a bad one, any 'assault weapon' is nothing more than a fancy looking hunting rifle until made fully automatic which are so hard to get that in the past 40+ years only 4 people have died at the hands of full auto assault rifles that were legally bought.
6. as stated at the end of number five, MOST GUNS USED IN CRIMES ARE ILLEGALY ACQUIRED!
7. we have between 9-10 thousand homocides in america, when you remove police, accidents, and self defense, than guess what...we are on par with most of europe as having few murders with fire arms as you guys do.
8. explosives are illegal yet he made those and could have easily used them, i have no doubt he could have easily picked an illegal gun off the street which runs the risk of being capable of full auto.
9. Norway doesnt have guns, or at least heavily control, yet that one guy killed 70 people.
10. almost all mass shooting happen in gun free zones with little to no resistance.
11. three times as many possible mass shooting are actually stopped by a citizen with a gun.
12. gun banned cities suffer higher crime than cities with a shit ton of them being legal.
13. most gun crime is caused by gang on gang with most victims and suspects being under the age of 21 with a handgun...no where in the US can you buy or own a handgun under the age of 21.
14. these killing would happen regardless.
15. these threads are pointless, our rights to protect our selves dont end where your feeling begin. guns are used positively more than they are negatively, so much so in fact that it would be irresponsible (criminally) to actually ban them. Smoking, cars, and alcohol are more likely to kill you than guns are. in fact, a car wreck involving a deer is more likely.
16. Europe is not america, it will never be america, you cant compare with america, and for damn sure America want to stay like America. And you know what, mexico has gun control and they suffered more deaths in the past few years than Iraqi civilians in the entire war. They cant even protect them selves against the corrupt government officials and the cartels. We can. in fact we do on a weekly basis according to Stats.
17. 200,000,000 known legal guns are in the us, probably another 50-100 million legal guns not known, and about 20 million illegal in circulation on the black market. Good luck getting rid of them, more than half of America owns a gun, most of us support second amendment rights, and the stats FROM THE FUCK MOTHERING FBI suggest guns in the hand of civilians lower crime.
18. Yes crazy shit will happen, its sad, it sucks, im pissed at the guy (who ironically was a left wing extremest in league with an extreme OWS group called black bloc or some shit) but he made illegal bombs, he was going to kill regardless. SHIT FUCKING HAPPENS!
19. Fast and furious....need i explain further?
20. Iraqi citizens were allowed to keep a gun , a full auto assault rifle, in their homes, the Military promoted it. so why the fuck should we, a more civilized and logical nation, not be allowed weapons that are NOT full auto?
21. STOP MAKING THESE THREADS EVERYTIME SHIT GOES DOWN! i get tired typeing out the truth because people whine about their political agendas over whats fucking reality and what hurts their delicate little feeling every time something bad happens in the news.
you can not prevent it, it will always happen, their is always the possibility.
the only thing you can do, is stop whining, take a safety class like most gun owners (or at least read the Manuel and train while practicing good judgement) and be prepared for when the shit (god forbid) happens to you.
there, im done, im sick of gun threads when they are pointless and dont provide evidence other wise and are just people (not referring to OP necessarily) judgeing others over a different cultural life style or choice. Im tired of typeing statistics STRAIGHT FROM THE FBI REPORTS that will ALWAYS contradict an anti-gun position. Im tired of people going fucking nuts and making rash decisions because some fucker was a nut job. im tired of people being one dimensional in these threads, and im tired of not shutting up and watching the new batman movie which FUCKING KICKS ASS AND YOU SHOULD GO SE IT!
over and out.
1. UK suffers more violent crime than the US, so HA.Moth_Monk said:Yep this thread had to get posted.
Although it only occurred to me after reading some of the pro-gun Americans responses in comments sections/threads to you-know-what
The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US. I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that. With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?
The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.
Captcha: hunky-dory
I <3 Captcha's irony.
2. we are bordered with mexico which is 40% drug state
3. most of out murders with hand guns are gang on gang
4. 2 million uses of a gun used in self defense are reported EACH YEAR, with another estimated at 2.5 going unreported, 99% of these dont require a single shot, this right here trumps all arguments because the good outways the bad.
5. assault weapons which is what will be the big issue, is both an ambiguous term and a bad one, any 'assault weapon' is nothing more than a fancy looking hunting rifle until made fully automatic which are so hard to get that in the past 40+ years only 4 people have died at the hands of full auto assault rifles that were legally bought.
6. as stated at the end of number five, MOST GUNS USED IN CRIMES ARE ILLEGALY ACQUIRED!
7. we have between 9-10 thousand homocides in america, when you remove police, accidents, and self defense, than guess what...we are on par with most of europe as having few murders with fire arms as you guys do.
8. explosives are illegal yet he made those and could have easily used them, i have no doubt he could have easily picked an illegal gun off the street which runs the risk of being capable of full auto.
9. Norway doesnt have guns, or at least heavily control, yet that one guy killed 70 people.
10. almost all mass shooting happen in gun free zones with little to no resistance.
11. three times as many possible mass shooting are actually stopped by a citizen with a gun.
12. gun banned cities suffer higher crime than cities with a shit ton of them being legal.
13. most gun crime is caused by gang on gang with most victims and suspects being under the age of 21 with a handgun...no where in the US can you buy or own a handgun under the age of 21.
14. these killing would happen regardless.
15. these threads are pointless, our rights to protect our selves dont end where your feeling begin. guns are used positively more than they are negatively, so much so in fact that it would be irresponsible (criminally) to actually ban them. Smoking, cars, and alcohol are more likely to kill you than guns are. in fact, a car wreck involving a deer is more likely.
16. Europe is not america, it will never be america, you cant compare with america, and for damn sure America want to stay like America. And you know what, mexico has gun control and they suffered more deaths in the past few years than Iraqi civilians in the entire war. They cant even protect them selves against the corrupt government officials and the cartels. We can. in fact we do on a weekly basis according to Stats.
17. 200,000,000 known legal guns are in the us, probably another 50-100 million legal guns not known, and about 20 million illegal in circulation on the black market. Good luck getting rid of them, more than half of America owns a gun, most of us support second amendment rights, and the stats FROM THE FUCK MOTHERING FBI suggest guns in the hand of civilians lower crime.
18. Yes crazy shit will happen, its sad, it sucks, im pissed at the guy (who ironically was a left wing extremest in league with an extreme OWS group called black bloc or some shit) but he made illegal bombs, he was going to kill regardless. SHIT FUCKING HAPPENS!
19. Fast and furious....need i explain further?
20. Iraqi citizens were allowed to keep a gun , a full auto assault rifle, in their homes, the Military promoted it. so why the fuck should we, a more civilized and logical nation, not be allowed weapons that are NOT full auto?
21. STOP MAKING THESE THREADS EVERYTIME SHIT GOES DOWN! i get tired typeing out the truth because people whine about their political agendas over whats fucking reality and what hurts their delicate little feeling every time something bad happens in the news.
you can not prevent it, it will always happen, their is always the possibility.
the only thing you can do, is stop whining, take a safety class like most gun owners (or at least read the Manuel and train while practicing good judgement) and be prepared for when the shit (god forbid) happens to you.
there, im done, im sick of gun threads when they are pointless and dont provide evidence other wise and are just people (not referring to OP necessarily) judgeing others over a different cultural life style or choice. Im tired of typeing statistics STRAIGHT FROM THE FBI REPORTS that will ALWAYS contradict an anti-gun position. Im tired of people going fucking nuts and making rash decisions because some fucker was a nut job. im tired of people being one dimensional in these threads, and im tired of not shutting up and watching the new batman movie which FUCKING KICKS ASS AND YOU SHOULD GO SE IT!
over and out.
The main reason we have the 2nd Amendment, which gives us the rights to bear arms, is because we we're a country the was born from bloody revolution against tyrants by armed civilians. The people who wrote the Constitution gave us that right so that we could have another armed uprising if our government ever got that out-of-hand again. So that's the rationalization for keeping guns legal; to keep our government afraid of its people. The way the 2nd Amendment is written ("A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed") makes it very clear that that's what it means; that because the government needs a militia to keep order in the nation, the people need the right to bear arms so that they never have to fear their own militia.