Question of the Day, August 28, 2010

[joshuaayt]

...Oh, come o-
Do you guys WANT fights here? Angry disputes, boiling down to "Nah *you* suck"?
Welp, I will answer as I always do: In a place where games only start getting cheaper over time when they are used copies (that "new" copy of the PS2 Superman Returns being SEVENTY DOLLARS at Jb Hifi), I humbly reject the idea that used games are somehow as unethical as pirated copies. Hey, publishers, you know what? How about lowering those prices a few years after the games come out? I know that I'd rather buy a new copy if the second hand one was only a few dollars cheaper, as apposed to 30 (For older games, anyhow)

 

[Cynical skeptic]

If used games ceased to exist, prices could start dropping, and quality/length could start increasing again.

Now, theres no point in lowering the price of new games because used copies would simply match the reduction. Not to mention, since most retailers operate on consignment, the only way to lower the shelf price would be for the publisher/developer to take a smaller cut. Even then, no guarantee the price actually drops.

And as far as comparing video games to anything else: No. You are wrong.

Project ten dollar is also a flawed concept. Reducing the value of each disc isn't the way to fix this problem. It just makes people wait longer to buy it used... if they even come close to caring about DLC (spoilers: most don't).

 

[Rochnan]

It's like people say.
You buy a chair. A nice and comfy chair. You place it into your room, you use it, as it is yours to use since you bought it.
Then one day, you find a new chair, so you buy the new chair. But instead of throwing it away, you decide to sell it to someone who might like the chair.
Not a single chair manufacturer complaints.

I really want to know why it is so different in the games industry? It seems some people might be desparate for money -and I wonder if they are the same people who said the entertainment industry is recession-proof back then.

 

[Cynical skeptic]

Let's say you buy a chair. A nice and comfy chair. You place it into your room, you use it, as it is yours to use since you bought it.
Then one day, you find a new chair, so you buy the new chair. But instead of throwing it away, you decide to sell it to someone who might like the chair.

Not a single chair manufacturer complaints.

I didn't realize a game contained all the various insects present in the original owners house and smelled like the original owner's ass and BO after they played it.

Which is the agreement made when buying used furniture.

Used games, on the other hand, are indistinguishable from new games. (mind you, the box, manual, and that [PRE-OWNED] sticker they sometimes stick on the disc itself can't be defined as "game.")

Not to mention, furniture is a fashion industry and fashion industries come out with different looking products every year.

 

[Evilsanta]

It is not piracy. That is all.

 

[Rochnan]

I didn't realize a game contained all the various insects present in the original owners house and smelled like the original owner's ass and BO after they played it.

Which is the agreement made when buying used furniture.

Used games, on the other hand, are indistinguishable from new games. (mind you, the box, manual, and that [PRE-OWNED] sticker they sometimes stick on the disc itself can't be defined as "game.")

Well, there are games which only let you install them on x machines, right? And there's the condition of the disc (or even more fun, the cartridge).
So I wouldn't say it's completely mint in each case.
The reverse is true for furniture, usually they're still in pretty good shape, or they wouldn't be sold anyway -I should know, living above a shop that sells used furniture

 

[Cynical skeptic]

It is not piracy. That is all.

Exactly. Piracy actually helps the various affected industries by exposing people to more than otherwise, thus enabling them to make better purchasing decisions.

Its documented that pirates buy more, because they're exposed to more, and like more.

 

[Cynical skeptic]

Well, there are games which only let you install them on x machines, right?

Those are called PC games. There isn't much of a used PC game market.

 

[Xaryn Mar]

Buying a game used is no more different than buying a film, cd or book used.
It is a product that can be resold just like any other. If used game sales are illegal then so are used car, book, etc. as well. That would just kill a lot of business that has been legal for several centuries (in the case of books).

And to those that say that you only buy a license: No, you buy a product with all the right that comes with that. No EULA can hold up to property laws (at least not in most of Europe. Don't know how it is in the states) and in fact the EULA are not a legally binding document in Denmark at least. Since you sign it after having paid and therefore it is not a known part of the deal and is void.

 

[Quantum Star]

Used games are the only reason I go to EB Games anymore. (Because I don't have the money to buy a new 60$ game all the time) If there was no more used game market, part of my soul would die.

 

[Cynical skeptic]

Buying a game used is no more different than buying a film, cd or book used.

Except film makes most it's money from cinema, music makes most it's money from concerts, and print is a very low investment venture.

These do not apply to the video game industry.

Used games are the only reason I go to EB Games anymore. (Because I don't have the money to buy a new 60$ game all the time) If there was no more used game market, part of my soul would die.

Well... if you don't care about supporting developers, why aren't you saving your money and pirating? At least then, no one could even pretend to have a claim to your money.

Edit: uh, sorry xar.

 

[Continuity]

If the publishers slashed prices a year after initial release then the second hand market would virtually disappear, the only reason its so strong is that console games are way over priced.

Yes the developers need to recoup the high costs of development and yes they need a potential profit margin that justifies the risk of making the game in the first place, but letting the second hand market make a dent in your sales is just bad pricing policy.

It is not piracy. That is all.

Exactly. Piracy actually helps the various affected industries by exposing people to more than otherwise, thus enabling them to make better purchasing decisions.

Its documented that pirates buy more, because they're exposed to more, and like more.

I think there are more than one type of pirate, yes there is the consumer pirate who uses piracy to explore new material and even as a "try before you buy", and yes that can increase your appetite for media products and ultimately lead to you buying more... but then there are whole nations in east Europe and the far east where hundreds of millions of pirate copies are shifted and no one ever buys new.

Even in the west there are those who amass huge pirate collections and never buy new as almost a matter of principle.

 

[Continuity]

dbl post - please delete.

 

[Cynical skeptic]

I think there are more than one type of pirate, yes there is the consumer pirate who uses piracy to explore new material and even as a "try before you buy", and yes that can increase your appetite for media products and ultimately lead to you buying more... but then there are whole nations in east Europe and the far east where hundreds of millions of pirate copies are shifted and no one ever buys new.

Even in the west there are those who amass huge pirate collections and never buy new as almost a matter of principle.

Pirates that would never buy would, by definition, never be customers. So no harm, no foul.

Eastern European and/or third world piracy exists because the products are priced for the first world. You hear stories of legit copies of games going on sale in these places for the equivalent of $60... which could feed a family for a month. Its delusional and flat out insane to even think someone is going to starve his family for a month to play a video game.

 

[Continuity]

I think there are more than one type of pirate, yes there is the consumer pirate who uses piracy to explore new material and even as a "try before you buy", and yes that can increase your appetite for media products and ultimately lead to you buying more... but then there are whole nations in east Europe and the far east where hundreds of millions of pirate copies are shifted and no one ever buys new.

Even in the west there are those who amass huge pirate collections and never buy new as almost a matter of principle.

Pirates that would never buy would, by definition, never be customers. So no harm, no foul.

You have a point that not all pirated copies are lost sales, that's a very important point that the anti-piracy lobby likes to overlook. However I think you take this too far here, there are people who are media junkies and dedicated pirates, people who without piracy would spend thousands on buying new and yet with piracy never buy new... these people do exist, I know one for a start.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

When you buy the game, it's yours. Not the developers, not the stores, yours. Once you've bought it you can play it, sell it or insert it rectally and they can't do jack shit about it because it's not theirs; it's yours to do as you please. With piracy you've copied the disc and broken the law and have to be punished for it. So, it isn't at all wrong because it's just business and it's completely legal. You aren't punished for buying anything else used, why should we be punished for buying used games?

And am I right in saying that most game developers get paid by the hour or on a salary and not by commission. So really they only need to care about the game making a profit so they all keep their jobs, right?

 

[Cynical skeptic]

there are people who are media junkies and dedicated pirates, people who without piracy would spend thousands on buying new and yet with piracy never buy new... these people do exist, I know one for a start.

Thats a somewhat self-defeating point, don't you think? Everyone knows at least one person like that. The one I know has zero disposable income. Thus, despite his voracious appetite for all forms of media, in the absence of piracy, he'd still not be anyone's customer.

When you buy the game, it's yours. Not the developers, not the stores, yours. Once you've bought it you can play it, sell it or insert it rectally and they can't do jack shit about it because it's not theirs; it's yours to do as you please.

and thats all well and good. Until you enter gamestop into the equation. They exploit the everloving shit out of first sale doctrine, to buy games off people at a fifth to a tenth of what they'll sell for. Often refusing to carry any new copies of a game (new copies are carried on consignment).

And am I right in saying that most game developers get paid by the hour or on a salary and not by commission. So really they only need to care about the game making a profit so they all keep their jobs, right?

... and... where do you think that money comes from? The moon?

 

[About To Crash]

Wow, that poll isn't biased at all... I can be a dirty pirate or a cheapskate. Nice.

Agreed. I mean, yes, if I'm buying a game second hand it should be decreased in price, but yes, I also believe the developers should get a piece of their games' sales from Retail stores. Obviously there's no way to curtail the exchange of games in between friends, or just people putting out an add and selling games they own. Here's the thing: I don't see anyone actively complaining about movies being bought second-hand, and I'd hazard a guess that they're being pirated more than games are. I'd need to see some numbers, like how much developers are losing as a result of second-hand purchases.

 

[Cynical skeptic]

I don't see anyone actively complaining about movies being bought second-hand, and I'd hazard a guess that they're being pirated more than games are. I'd need to see some numbers, like how much developers are losing as a result of second-hand purchases.

The reason you don't hear a lot about this is you can't pirate a or sell a used cinema.

You could steal the reels and take pictures of each film cell, you could bring a camera and record the whole movie, but those will be pale imitations of even (il)legitimate home copies.

Also, since most of the money in film is in cinema... Not a whole lot to complain about there.

 

[AvsJoe]

I hope that this issue gets resolved in a way that benefits both the consumer and the developers while taking as little as possible from the middlemen. But I'm part of the problem, not the solution; 80+% of my game purchases are used and the new ones are generally severely marked down (for instance I buy games from Wal-Mart's $20 bin sometimes). I'd like to apologize to any game developers that are reading this but I'm also not going to change my habits until a reasonable solution to this problem is realized.

...but at least I don't pirate games. That's a plus, eh?