Questions regarding Baldur's Gate

[Lordmarkus]

I recently dusted off and picked up Baldur's Gate for a first play-through 2 years in the making. With that, some questions started to appear over the course of the hours that flew by:

? Are the NPCs so expendable or replaceable that they can die by the rate they are or is the game just damn hard?

? How the hell do you calculate the damage system? 1-4 dmg seems a lot more friendly than "1D4" or what else my puny little sword is.

 

[CAPTCHA]

NPC die and are finite, but they can be rezzed by clerics at temples for gold or by party members with the relevent spell. Rezzed charaters suffer a loss of CON, so if they die too much they will become useless. I personaly reloaded if a party member fell in battle, but you could try "Iron-Maning" it.

1D4 means a 4 sided dice (1-4). Sometimes magic wepons will have a bonus to damage such as 1D4 +1. The +1 means one extra damage, but also will grant a +1 modifer to land the hit.

In case you don't understand the roll to hit system: each charater and enemy has a THAC0 stat (To Hit Armor Class 0). Lets say this is an 11 for your character, that means that to hit someone with an AC of 0 he needs to roll under 11 on a D20. If the target was wearing light armour such as leather, he might have an AC of 3. This would mean that the above charater would need to roll under 14 (11+3). If he was using the magic +1 sword the chance is improved further (11+3+1=15). On landing the hit the target would lose HP equal to the weapons damage + any modifiers such as a STR bonus or enchantments on the weapon.

 

[Lordmarkus]

Snip

Ok, thanks for the info. I'll probably never understand the damage-system but I'm not after building the most god-like character.

Concerning NPC deaths, I knew that they wouldn't revive, I learned that the hard way in Fallout. I'm in the mines right now and I forgot to stack up on potions so my companions are dying like flies when the demons start to swarm. If need be, I'll just load a previous save and stock up on potions.

 

[Garrett]

xDy is really quite simple. Roll y sided die x times and add results.

THAC0 is quite neat to, I actualy prefer it to the way current D&D editions do it. Though I'm not sure if Djinn8 explanation is correct. I don't really have the will to think this through so I'll post my (which I think is most common) explanation. You substract enemy armor class (AC) from your THAC0 (and if you're using magic weapons like eg. short sword +1, you substract this +1 too) and you have to roll D20 higher than your result. So using Djinn8 example of THAC0 11 and AC 3. 11-3 = 8 so you need to roll at least 8 on 20 sided die.

And even if you fully understood it, you would not be able to make god-like character. Without proper tactics even full six person party leveled to the cap could be wiped out easily in some fights (and in case of Drizzt, by one person).

Also about NPCs deaths. If the die by a critical hit and they do not have equipement protecting them from crits, you will not be able to revive them (their bodies will "blow up" and they will be automatically removed from your party).

EDIT: And we forgot to tell you about natural 20. If you roll 20 you automatically hit a target (even if your THAC0 and his AC won't let you hit eg. THAC0 18 and AC -7) and do a critical hit which is double damage (I'm not sure if BG requires you to prove your crit as in you have to roll and hit again to deal critical damage). Rolling natura 1 would equal epic fail which can result in various accidents (like breaking/dropping your weapon) though I don't remember what are results of fumbles in BG.

 

[eimatshya]

Yeah, reloading was usually the way I went in those games.

Anyway, the damage system isn't quite as difficult as it first appears. It originates with pen and paper RPGs, though, which is why it calculates everything in dice. Basically, what you need to know, is that:

THAC0 = a characters chance to hit (lower = better, strangely enough)
AC = how well your character evades attacks (again, lower = better)
Damage = weapon base damage + strength modifier (higher = better)
d = die (as in dice, not cease to live)

The number after the "d" indicates how many sides the die has. 4 = four sides, 6 = six sides (i.e. a normal die), 8 = eight sides, etc. The number before the die is how many are rolled, usually one, but sometimes higher, especially with spells. So, 1d6 = one six sided die while 2d6 = two six sided dice.

So, if your weapon does 1d6 damage (i.e. you roll one six sided die to determine damage), a successful hit will deal 1-6 damage. If your strength is high enough, you will add a bonus to this damage. Looking at the players handbook for the actual pen and paper game, the damage bonus is as follows (assuming Baldur's gate using the same modifiers; I haven't played it in years, so I don't remember):

Strength:
8-15 = no damage bonus
16-17 = +1 damage
18 = +2 damage
18/01-18/75 = +3 damage
18/76-18/90 = +4 damage
18/91-18/99 = +5 damage
18/00 = +6 damage
19 = +7 damage

So, if you have a 1d6 damage weapon and 18 strength, you would do 3-8 damage per hit (1-6 for the weapon + 2 extra from your strength). Magic weapons also get a damage bonus. So, if your magic sword is 1d6+1, it does one extra point of magic damage per hit. If a weapon does 2d6 damage (i.e. two six sided dice are rolled), the damage range should be 2-12, rather than 1-12 since you can't roll a 1 if you have two dice.

Also, due to the way probability works, when rolling two six sided dice, you are more likely to get a number in the middle than a high or low one. So, you are less likely to get a 12 on 2d6 than on 1d12 (i.e. 1 twelve sided die). You are also less likely to get a 2, and you can't get a 1, so it evens out (this is all assuming that Baldur's Gate is simulating the probability generated by dice rolling, which may or may not be the case).

Wow, ok maybe that is complicated. Anyway, what you need to know about damage is that, in general, you want the number after the "d" to be higher. 1d8 is better than 1d6, and 1d6 is better than 1d4.

 

[eimatshya]

*snip*

*snip*

Oh, and according to the AD&D 2e revised Player's Handbook, Garrett is correct about the way THAC0 works. In order to hit, you need to roll equal to or over your THAC0 - target's AC, rather than under it as Djinn8 said, which is why you want your THAC0 to be low.

 

[Baralak]

I think this thread is just proving that THAC0 is a lot more complicated than it needs to be, and we're all better for it not being in use anymore.

 

[eimatshya]

I think this thread is just proving that THAC0 is a lot more complicated than it needs to be, and we're all better for it not being in use anymore.

I won't argue with that.

 

[Shadowsetzer]

I think this thread is just proving that THAC0 is a lot more complicated than it needs to be, and we're all better for it not being in use anymore.

I won't argue with that.

Thirded. Back to the OP.

I usually reload the game if one of my characters dies, as even though you can rez them, you basically have to bring all of their gear to the nearest temple, which can be hideously inconvenient depending on where you are at the time; petrification is the same way, although you can at least bring Stone to Flesh scrolls if you know it's a threat.

Also, the BG games don't implement the Con loss for rezzing afaik, and you don't need to carry the body back with you; like Garritt said, though, if the person is 'chunked' or disintegrated, they're gone for good unless you reload.

 

[GloatingSwine]

? Are the NPCs so expendable or replaceable that they can die by the rate they are or is the game just damn hard?

There are about 36 NPCs in the original Baldur's Gate, but there are only a few of each class, so if you let every cleric you run across get permakilled, well, sucks to be you.

? How the hell do you calculate the damage system? 1-4 dmg seems a lot more friendly than "1D4" or what else my puny little sword is.

That would be logical, however there are some weapons that use two dice, which presents a problem.

Take, for instance, Longswords and Bastard Swords. Longswords do 1D8, Bastard Swords do 2D4. That means that a Longsword can do 1-8 damage with an equal chance of scoring any of those values, however a Bastard Sword does 2-8 damage but is more likely to hover around the middle of the range. (1/4 chance of scoring 5, only 1/16 of scoring 2 or 8).

There's no easy way to annotate that in the weapon information, so weapons (or spells) that use that type of damage can only be expressed by giving their actual dice information and letting you figure the probabilities.

 

[GloatingSwine]

THAC0 is quite neat to, I actualy prefer it to the way current D&D editions do it.

The current system is much more intuitive, The problem with THAC0 is that you are rolling against a property of your character modified by a property of the target.

With the current system of rolling against the targets AC it's properties of your character that modify your roll and properties of the target that modify the target value. That seperation of "My stats modify me, your stats modify you" is much more sensible and can much more easily be universally applied.

 

[Garrett]

THAC0 is quite neat to, I actualy prefer it to the way current D&D editions do it.

The current system is much more intuitive, The problem with THAC0 is that you are rolling against a property of your character modified by a property of the target.

With the current system of rolling against the targets AC it's properties of your character that modify your roll and properties of the target that modify the target value. That seperation of "My stats modify me, your stats modify you" is much more sensible and can much more easily be universally applied.

I still prefer THAC0 to current systems. Can I? Thank you.

 

[endtherapture]

THAC0 is fine for a computer RPG where all the calculations are done instantly.

I can imagine it being unwieldy in a pen and paper situation.

 

[Zaik]

The answer to every melee question in the game is Katana +5

 

[VoidWanderer]

While I have never finished BG, I would love to watch LPs of 1, 2 and their respective expansions as well.

And I wish they would bring out another good D&D game.

 

[Scars Unseen]

THAC0 is quite neat to, I actualy prefer it to the way current D&D editions do it.

The current system is much more intuitive, The problem with THAC0 is that you are rolling against a property of your character modified by a property of the target.

With the current system of rolling against the targets AC it's properties of your character that modify your roll and properties of the target that modify the target value. That seperation of "My stats modify me, your stats modify you" is much more sensible and can much more easily be universally applied.

This. THAC0 isn't more complicated than Attack Bonus, really, but it is harder to explain to the uninitiated.

 

[Scars Unseen]

And I wish they would bring out another good D&D game.

I wouldn't hold my breath. Publishers don't want to back a true D&D game, just more shitty action games that they think will sell millions and millions of copies. If devs were to go the kickstarter route then to avoid publishers, I'm assuming that acquiring the d&d license wouldn't be as feasible because they're gonna need all the money they can get to make the game, rather than pay for licenses.

PLUS you have WotC that doesn't seem to want to allow for the use of older editions, just the current edition. (4th-- which is shit anyway and not real D&D)

So there's alot of obstacles in the way of getting an actual 'good' new D&D game these days.

Beamdog is currently working on Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition(and following it up with BG2EE) in the hopes of eventually getting license to make Baldur's Gate 3. I have no idea where someone would go with that in respect to the story, but I certainly would not argue with a new D&D game made in that style.