Quit It

[Enkidu88]

Accidental post... 0_o

 

[Gunnyboy]

Uh, how did Cameron play it safe? People realize anti-"military" (mercenaries in Avatar but come on, we know), environmental films are NOT box office attractions right? Hell look at every Iraq war movie to come out - bomb after bomb. Even The Hurt Locker made no money

 

[RTR]

So Bob, what did you think of American Beauty??

 

[Callate]

A brief memo, from me to the guys who keep writing/greenlighting this movie (and book, and sitcom): I understand. You "settled down" right before social-media and shifting-social-mores in general made the "hookup culture" explode. Growing up, you were told that if you hit 35 without a ring and a mortgage society would see you as an immature loser... and that turned out to be (increasingly) not the case at all. Part of you is incredibly bitter about this, even if a bigger part really does know (or at least believe) that you're actually better off. I understand. I get it. You have my sympathy.

Is that the problem with the premise? Or is it that embracing the "hookup culture" when you're in your late thirties or later is still seen as on the pathetic side?

 

[camazotz]

Why not take a few ideas from Bollywood. They sure seem to come up with a lot more than the ones in the West.

What the.....holy....WHAT THE....!?!?!?!?!?

 

[WolfEdge]

Snip.

I agree I want all my films devoid of any personal opinion.

It's not about stripping artistic endeavors of personal opinion, it's about putting in the research necessary to make your opinion and handling of the subject valid. A straw-man character or poorly fleshed out opposite ideal is essentially just an excuse for the author to intellectually masturbate in front of an audience.

The problem isn't opinion, it's failing to present your opinion in a way that holds merit.

 

[TheEnglishman]

A lot of good points, though I would say that the Yellow Spandew looks pretty silly in the upcoming film, and even the director was pretty quick to assure people it doesn't turn up that much.

 

[DarkPanda XIII]

First "X-Men" movie. It could be seen that the reason Cyclops said, "Would you prefer yellow spandex?" is because he is aware of the ugly yellow and blue combination that Prof X and Magneto wore back when they were doing the field work, and he is giving a legitimate criticism of how silly it looks. At the time it was a finger to the fanboys, now it just looks like he was giving a specific rebuttal to Wolverine because he knows what he is talking about.

I'm in that weird camp that think the black suits looked more functional and cool. Like a tactical uniform should. I generally dislike the X-Men being portrayed as super heroes and prefer to think of them as a very elite ethnic militia, fighting for equal rights and good graces on behalf of their minority groups.

......Wow, you just made my day in registering that. I hadn't thought of the X-men as anything but heroes, but that fits them far better. Kudos to you!

 

[theultimateend]

Why not take a few ideas from Bollywood. They sure seem to come up with a lot more than the ones in the West.

What the.....holy....WHAT THE....!?!?!?!?!?

I have no idea what I just watched but I loved every second of it.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Uh, how did Cameron play it safe? People realize anti-"military" (mercenaries in Avatar but come on, we know), environmental films are NOT box office attractions right? Hell look at every Iraq war movie to come out - bomb after bomb. Even The Hurt Locker made no money

Am I the only one that thinks Cameron isn't anti-military? I mean his brother is a Marine, and aside from Avatar, most of his movies portray military guys as total badasses:

Terminator 2, Sarah is a militia trained warrior and military training ensues the future of humanity and she herself was set upon that path by Kyle Reese, a resistance fighter in the army of the future.

The Marines in Aliens only suffer their losses due to bad leadership, so a dig at commanders educated at places like Westpoint, Sandhurst or Duntroon without ever having done anything in the field and even he goes and dies a heroes death.

True Lies, an action movie staring Arnie as an ex-Airforce man now doing counter intelligence and counter terrorism work and a movie who's action set piece is Arnie using a USMC Harrier II to blow up a floor full of Muslim Terrorists.


The mercenaries in Avatar are just that; mercenaries. They (as far as my readings go) have sworn loyalty to the almighty currency and not to any higher ideals like their country or their planet. In this case, I think a cigar is just a cigar. Also, I like Quaritch and Sully, both are men with qualities worthy of heroes who ultimately make the decision that they think is best.

 

[Benjamin Moore]

Enjoyed the article:
RE, the Punisher plot point; what about 'Law Abiding Citizen'? Here the man whose wife and daughter were raped and murdered is taking on the whole justice system, and his actions are extreme enough to place him in the 'anti-hero' category. I found it an interesting movie, and a great deviation from the normal 'the bad guys are evil, because they are evil, and you won't feel any connection to them when the good guys eventually take them down.'

On the thought of left-leaning Hollywood, I tend to agree, and I think it would be interesting to see some movies showing the potential damage of overly simplistic stories. There is a British author, Peter F Hamilton, whose subtle disdain for idealism makes for rather introspective reading. While 'Nights Dawn', at around 3600 pages in total is probably too long to adapt as a movie properly (the first book is bigger than the entire LotR trilogy), I think that the Greg Mandel Trilogy, at least Mindstar Rising, would make an excellent movie(s).
I do wonder in what camp you place 'Starship Troopers'...

 

[Gunnyboy]

Uh, how did Cameron play it safe? People realize anti-"military" (mercenaries in Avatar but come on, we know), environmental films are NOT box office attractions right? Hell look at every Iraq war movie to come out - bomb after bomb. Even The Hurt Locker made no money

Am I the only one that thinks Cameron isn't anti-military? I mean his brother is a Marine, and aside from Avatar, most of his movies portray military guys as total badasses:

Terminator 2, Sarah is a militia trained warrior and military training ensues the future of humanity and she herself was set upon that path by Kyle Reese, a resistance fighter in the army of the future.

The Marines in Aliens only suffer their losses due to bad leadership, so a dig at commanders educated at places like Westpoint, Sandhurst or Duntroon without ever having done anything in the field and even he goes and dies a heroes death.

True Lies, an action movie staring Arnie as an ex-Airforce man now doing counter intelligence and counter terrorism work and a movie who's action set piece is Arnie using a USMC Harrier II to blow up a floor full of Muslim Terrorists.


The mercenaries in Avatar are just that; mercenaries. They (as far as my readings go) have sworn loyalty to the almighty currency and not to any higher ideals like their country or their planet. In this case, I think a cigar is just a cigar. Also, I like Quaritch and Sully, both are men with qualities worthy of heroes who ultimately make the decision that they think is best.

They were ex-Marines. Sully makes the statement "they used to fight for freedom, but now they fight for money" or something along those lines. The Marines in Aliens are just gung-ho, let's go kill 'em guys. I don't mind caricatures of tough guys, I LOVED Quaritch, but I just call it how I see it in the context of the story. I guess the more appropriate answer is anti-Iraq war allegory, but it fits even better within the timeless narrative of anti-colonialism.

I never said Cameron is always anti-military, but there is no doubt who he takes aim at in the film.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Uh, how did Cameron play it safe? People realize anti-"military" (mercenaries in Avatar but come on, we know), environmental films are NOT box office attractions right? Hell look at every Iraq war movie to come out - bomb after bomb. Even The Hurt Locker made no money

Am I the only one that thinks Cameron isn't anti-military? I mean his brother is a Marine, and aside from Avatar, most of his movies portray military guys as total badasses:

Terminator 2, Sarah is a militia trained warrior and military training ensues the future of humanity and she herself was set upon that path by Kyle Reese, a resistance fighter in the army of the future.

The Marines in Aliens only suffer their losses due to bad leadership, so a dig at commanders educated at places like Westpoint, Sandhurst or Duntroon without ever having done anything in the field and even he goes and dies a heroes death.

True Lies, an action movie staring Arnie as an ex-Airforce man now doing counter intelligence and counter terrorism work and a movie who's action set piece is Arnie using a USMC Harrier II to blow up a floor full of Muslim Terrorists.


The mercenaries in Avatar are just that; mercenaries. They (as far as my readings go) have sworn loyalty to the almighty currency and not to any higher ideals like their country or their planet. In this case, I think a cigar is just a cigar. Also, I like Quaritch and Sully, both are men with qualities worthy of heroes who ultimately make the decision that they think is best.

They were ex-Marines. Sully makes the statement "they used to fight for freedom, but now they fight for money" or something along those lines. The Marines in Aliens are just gung-ho, let's go kill 'em guys. I don't mind caricatures of tough guys, I LOVED Quaritch, but I just call it how I see it in the context of the story. I guess the more appropriate answer is anti-Iraq war allegory, but it fits even better within the timeless narrative of anti-colonialism.

I never said Cameron is always anti-military, but there is no doubt who he takes aim at in the film.

Oh of course not, I'm not saying he didn't take square aim at those you say he did, it just seems that after Avatar came out there was just waves after waves of people saying Cameron hates the military and he deserves to be punched by a marine. I mean his brother did the military training for him on Avatar (if I remember the making of special correctly) so obviously he didn't care too much.

Its kind of like Pixar copping flack for the setting they used for Wall-E: they chose the setting because that would enable the plot best. Avatar is no different, at least not from my perspective.

On that note, I found this from marinecorpstimes.com (http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2010/01/marine_cameron_questions_011410/)

Spoiler

Q&A: James Cameron on Avatar

Posted : Thursday Jan 14, 2010 14:55:23 EST
In a recent e-mail to Marine Corps Times, Hollywood director James Cameron weighed in on the controversy surrounding his latest film, ?Avatar?. In response to questions from reporter James K. Sanborn, Cameron sheds light on the movie?s allegorical undertones, talks about his use of Marine characters and responds to criticism from the Marine Corps? director of public affairs.

Q: WAS AVATAR MEANT TO BE AN ALLEGORY OF SOME SORT ? TO MAKE A STATEMENT ? OR IS IT INTENDED TO BE NOTHING MORE THAN A FEW HOURS OF FANTASTIC STORYTELLING AND DAZZLING SPECIAL EFFECTS?
A: Avatar is like a Rorschach test. People see many things within its patterns, depending on their own world-view and personal reality. Some of the interpretations which have emerged in the media I consider valid, and others I disagree with.

As the writer of the film, I intended several allegories, although clearly my first and foremost goal was to entertain a global audience with a grand adventure story. I grew up on a steady diet of science fiction as a kid, during the troubled [1960s], and most of the science fiction then, in both literature and movies, was cautionary. Most big movies these days don?t like to embed a message, because they are interested only in the box office, but I have always tried to make films that reflect my personal views, no matter the scale of the movie.

So I am definitely making some cautionary statements in Avatar about our technological society wrecking the environment, and the roll of big corporations in reducing the quality of life, which we will bequeath to our children. I believe these are issues facing all developed and developing nations, so I am distressed by interpretations of Avatar as ?anti-American.? The responsibility for changing the course of civilization to a sustainable path is borne by all nations, not just America. However, I do hope that Americans take the environmental message of the film to heart, because they have to the greatest power to lead the world.

I am also concerned that some people are simplistically saying that Avatar is ?anti-military?. The highly sympathetic main character of the film, through whom the audience experiences almost every moment of the story, is a former Marine. His courage in the face of overwhelming odds makes him a hero of mythic proportions by the end of the story.

While the enemy force in the film are mercenary troops, who are clearly stated to be acting as corporate security contractors, it is not a goal of the film to criticize legitimate military forces, especially the courageous men and women who defend this country.

Q: WHAT PROMPTED THE DECISION TO PORTRAY FORMER MARINES IN THE MOVIE? WITH THE MOVIE SET IN THE FUTURE AMIDST SO MUCH FANTASY, WHY SPECIFICALLY MENTION THE U.S. MARINE CORPS?
A: My youngest brother John David ?JD? Cameron joined the Marine Corps in 1985, ironically as I was filming ?Aliens,? which is a story of ?Colonial? Marines against an overwhelming force of alien predators. He distinguished himself by being the youngest recruit to make sergeant at Camp Pendleton, and he went on to compete in Super Squad and later to see combat in Desert Storm. His unit was one of the first into Kuwait, and fought to capture Kuwait Airport.

After that conflict, Dave has worked for me, along with several of his fellow Marines, until the present. And I still have several former Marines working directly for me who have become like family. I have been impressed over the years by the quality of these men, by their focus, their discipline, and their willingness to tackle any problem head on. I attribute these qualities to their training as Marines, which has left them with an indelible mind-set that they can overcome any obstacle. These men have proven themselves to me on multiple deep ocean expedition projects around the world, and they have earned my undying respect.

In creating the main character of Avatar, Jake Sully who is played by Sam Worthington, I sought to embody these qualities. Although he is confined to a wheelchair because of a combat injury, he is unbowed and still a warrior, ready to take on the greatest challenge. His courage and strength of character propel all the action of the movie, ultimately changing the course of history on the planet Pandora.

My brother JD acted as a technical consultant for Sam when he was preparing for his character and Sam drew strength for the role from both JD?s direct instruction and the inspiration of his example. As an artist, it made sense to me to honor the spirit of the Marine Corps by showing my hero, Jake Sully, wearing the Eagle, Globe and Anchor on his T-shirt. I wanted the audience to know that his strength, courage and cunning as a warrior were traits that had been instilled in him by his Marine Corps experience.

So even though the U.S. Marines are not mentioned specifically in dialogue, I felt it was important to make this association as a tribute to the caliber of people created by the Marine Corps? training, spirit and values.

Q: ALTHOUGH SOME OF OUR READERS HAD A POSITIVE REACTION TO THE MOVIE, SAYING THAT THE PROTAGONIST JAKE EPITOMIZES THE CORPS? CORE VALUES, OTHERS HAVE FELT IT PORTRAYS MARINES IN A NEGATIVE LIGHT. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM?
A: I?m glad to hear that many Marines see the positive portrayal of a former Marine in the movie. And of course I understand how some people might be offended, given that Jake?s nemesis in the film, Col. Quaritch, is also a former Marine. As a writer I felt that it was important, early in the film, to misdirect the audience that Quaritch was a kind of ?father figure? to Jake, a man he could relate to, believe in and respect. Only as the story progresses do we see that Quaritch has ?gone to the dark side,? taking money as a corporate security operator and no longer beholden to a set of ethics or to a higher sense of duty. However, even Quaritch, although misguided, still demonstrates the courage and tenacity of a Marine, which makes him the most formidable enemy Jake ever encounters ? worse even than the most ferocious predator Pandora has to offer. The film challenges the audience to decide who is the bigger traitor; Jake for abandoning his mission and siding with the oppressed or Quaritch who is a paid killer, fighting for no just cause.

Q: MORE SPECIFICALLY WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO COL. BRYAN SALAS? SCATHING LETTER THAT SAYS THE MOVIE ?TAKES SOPHOMORIC SHOTS AT OUR MILITARY,? USES, ?OVER-THE-TOP STEREOTYPES,? AND ?DOES A DISSERVICE TO OUR CORPS OF MARINES AND THE PUBLIC?S UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR CORPS.?
A: In a phone conversation with Colonel Salas yesterday, I learned that his concern was that the Marines? modern tactics are not properly represented in the movie. He cited the lessons learned in Afghanistan and Iraq, specifically the Fallujah conflict, which have led Marine Corps leadership to adopt policies of understanding and helping the local population as the only effective way to combat insurgent forces.

Quaritch of course, in my fictional story, has all the subtlety of a sledgehammer in his approach, but I would encourage people to look at Jake?s methods which represent exactly the approach Col. Salas described to me. Jake sets out to understand the indigenous people and learns to respect them and their value system, and in turn earns their respect. Later, as he must organize them to fight back, he honors their internal chain of command by enlisting the aid of their most senior warrior, working through him as an interpreter and fighting alongside him as an equal comrade in arms. I believe this exactly embodies the approach Col. Salas described to me.

It must be remembered, I think, that the ?bad guy? in any movie is not where one should look to reveal the values of the filmmaker, but instead analyze the hero of the film to understand the values the film supports. Even though Jake never appears in uniform ? other than his high and tight haircut at the beginning ? he is every inch a Marine throughout the film.

I hope Marines everywhere can enjoy Jake?s heroism in the movie as a tribute to their own, as it was meant to be. I have the greatest respect for the men and women of the Marine Corps, and firmly believe that Avatar honors their courage, their strength, and their core values.

*warning wall of text*


Moving on, I love formula movies as much as the next man, and in the hands of a director and production team who have a solid wit about them, you can take a couple of chances: change up a couple of the expectations like Die Hard did, make sure the script is good fun; like The A-Team and if you have source material, trim it if you must but don't totally disrespect it. Iron Man is a triumphant example on how to do this right. Its just sometimes, I like a something a little different, like Shawshank Redemption or Amelia, to cleanse the palate and allow me to indulge my other senses.

Also, the bigger studios could start up accounts to bankroll simple, different movies by using the profits from their tentpole films. Set a strict budget dependent on the genre: a drama about a mother and daughter may only require a film budget of 10million but an action piece may require 45million.

I agree with Bob for the most part, especially with the shoehorned in (not to be confused with planned but poorly written) love story really gets my goat: Transformers: RotF is a good example here: in fact to improve that movie, remove the stupid and overlong scenes of them going on about saying 'I love you'. Worst thing about that is now Megan Fox got the sack, it was all for naught.

 

[veloper]

Dear Bob,

Hollywood isn't to blame; the audience is.
Those companies just exist to make money and if it doesn´t sell it won´t get made.

There's cat piss and the masses are lapping it up. Hate them instead.

 

[maninahat]

How does one need to "properly research" in an article about cliches? You only need to watch lots of movies to make valid observations about trite and derivative cinema.

I wasn't referring to this particular podcast, but rather some of his other, especially "big picture", posts.

Ah, okay. Though there is no knowing about how much research he actually does, simply because he doesn't explicitly bring up that subject. People call him out on his lack of research regarding Halo, but that is the only instance I know of him screwing it up.

 

[maninahat]

This isn't right. Superpowers aren't what bum superheroes out, it's the responsibility. Spider-man became a superhero while there were few in his universe active. His attempts at it cost him relationships, job opportunities ect(not to mention all the horrible things they encounter). Eventually that bums them out and they wish they could lead a normal life. But a normal life isn't what you think it is, a normal life is a chance to lead life the way they want to but they tend to be too responsible. The basic mold of superheros is that the right thing is hard to do, marvel took that and made it almost self destructive.

Which is also bollocks. Superheroes always bang on about hiding their identity and struggling to keep up a double life. But why bother? I know they say it helps "protect the ones they love", but that makes no sense either. If you openly showed everyone that you had super powers, you would be guaranteed get ANY job you wanted. If you were worried about some super villain attacking your family, it would be easier and safer for them to stay safe if they get on some witness protection programs. I don't see how one teenager is any better skilled at keeping his family secret than an agency specifically designed for that purpose. If you live in a world with supervillains and you are the guardian of mankind, you are likely to get the best government protection known to man.

Of course, one could argue that being a superhero makes one a vigiliante, wanted by the police for violently taking people down. But the hero could have easily got around that by applying to the police force and demonstrating their supreme value to the service. Yeesh.

 

[Callmeindy]

Two: more often than not, I would argue that with few rare examples, marriage + Hollywood is a mouthpiece for promoting the belief that all women want to have, or end up with, a man. And that women are incapable of being happy without the quintessential romance --> marriage path in life.

Well, insert "men and women" and I think that's more or less true. I think everyone wants someone to be their partner in life through thick and thin. Everyone wants that one person who if there were only room for two people in the fallout shelter they would give the other spot to them. I don't think most people _do_ have fulfilling lives unless they have a significant other and statistics (and anecdotal examples from my own life) bare this out.

Short version: It's been a significant evolutionary advantage to have a life partner for our existence as a species and we are designed around wanting that because that's the best way to insure the survival of our offspring. So Hollywood tells the story of boy-meets-girl-and-they-become-life-partners (which in our culture means marriage) because it appeals to our basic nature.

Hollywood will continue to show people their hopes and dreams and the majority of people want to get married and view it as a happy outcome so that's the stories that will get told.

Stories about how great it is for the married man/woman to abandon his/her wife/husband and kids for the hook-up culture will not get made for the same reason that stories about how great it is for someone to quit their job so they can be a better alcoholic won't get made; it's not a meme that society wants to embrace.

 

[Callmeindy]

But the hero could have easily got around that by applying to the police force and demonstrating their supreme value to the service. Yeesh.

Then it wouldn't be as strong of a power fantasy. People (starting usually with adolescent powerless males who have no choice but to be locked in the bureaucracy of school) like the idea of not having to fill out paper work and follow precise rules and procedures and being a classical super-hero lets you imagine yourself being that in a way being a cop doesn't.

Hell even our cop movies usually have the cops play fast and loose with what cops actually do.