Racism, Stereotypes, and Cultural Norms.

[James Rednok]

Recently I faced a situation that made me sit down and think. While at work, I was enjoying a pleasant (If somewhat flavorless) conversation with two other co-workers. We were on the topic of side dishes for whatever reason when one of them asks the other, "Hey, you're Hispanic right? Which do you like better, white or yellow rice?" Being Hispanic myself, I found absolutely nothing wrong with this statement, however my co-worker (to use the vernacular) lost her shit. She tore this poor guy apart and then rounded on me asking, "Are you really going to stand there and let him be racist against us!?" It honestly made me wonder, is this racism?

To me, the word racism has always carried a certain stigma with it. In my book, it's only racism if there are definite negative or hostile motives to the statement or action. I found my co-workers statement not as an example of racism or even stereotyping, but as an innocent question with the observance of a cultural norm. It's not exactly wrong to assume that "Oh, that person is Hispanic; they probably eat rice." Does EVERY Hispanic eat rice? I'm sure not, but you'd be hard-pressed to find one in my area.

This led me to thinking, where exactly is the line drawn between issues like this? And not just in matters of race; in matters of gender, religion, political standpoint, and sexuality as well. Let me give you another example. a few months ago I was asked by a mutual acquaintance (whom I did not know very well but nevertheless knew that I was homosexual) if I would like to attend an LGBTQ rally with her. Not being a supporter of the LGBTQ movement, I naturally said no and explained my reasons and was surprised to see the look of near incomprehension she wore and how downright flabbergasted she was when hearing that I wasn't both gay AND a LGBTQ member.

This too, I passed off as a mere observance of a cultural norm (if you can call being gay a culture, I suppose. I don't but I can't think of a better word at the moment). I mean, you I haven't heard of many other gays who DON'T support the LGBTQ so it wasn't too far of a stretch to her to think that I would be a supporter, but when I told this story to a friend of mine he said that it was a stereotype for someone to connect those dots.

I'm pretty easy going as a rule, so is it just my personality getting in the way of this? Who knows? Not I. Perhaps I've just been desensitized to these issues after growing up rolling my eyes after hearing things like, "Who?" "That black guy." "Dude that's racist..." But here in lies my question.

What say you fellow Escapists? Where do you draw the line between these kinds of things? Do you even consider there to be a line? Does every instance have it's own variables without a set parameter to determine racist-ness(?) by? I can expand on my thoughts or give more examples if necessary, but please post your own views and positions and give us all something to think about. As for me, I'm off to play Psychonauts and try to beat that F*^%#&G target practice mini-game in Coach Oleander's mind!

TL;DR What's the difference between racism, stereotypes, and cultural norms?

 

[Ryotknife]

(PS im assuming you are an American)

I cant think of any section of the US where rice is not a normal part of someone's cuisine. With the rising popularity of Chinese, Japanese, Indian, and Mexican food it would be odd for the average American to NOT eat rice regardless of ethnicity or race. Even the Deep South has the Cajun cuisine which uses rice in gumbo and jambalaya. The West Coast uses rice (typically wild) in "pilof" dishes to spruce up vegetable entrees and look pretty. It would be like flipping out over someone asking "hey, do you like wheat or potato bread?"

As for the "where is the line for racism", in the US there is no line. The entire subject is one big ole minefield. You can be as careful and sensitive as you want, but there is still a good chance that someone will go off the rails regardless. The only way for it to not blow up in your face is to never talk about race in any way, shape, or form because quite honestly too many people are not mature enough to have a reasonable discussion about race. It doesn't help that the American media loves to feed off this negativity by riling up racial tensions just to generate views.

 

[Norithics]

Oh god. As a white dude, I admit to being guilty of looking at every conversation on race, holding up a clipboard and checking off "things not to say ever in any context" if anybody even remotely seems irritated by something. It isn't because I'm afraid of being racist; I know I'm not and I'm not that insecure. It's because I'm afraid of being perceived that way. It would just be the worst thing possible and I know it's just a colossal powder keg, so I just stay my ass right out of it and let everyone else talk.

Though I do remember a black friend of mine was talking about grabbing some grub, and I mentioned that I was sick of fast food and could really have gone for some homemade fried chicken, watermelon and cornbread. He gave me this look of incredulity for a moment and we had the most awkward conversation ever about how there was no reason I mentioned this except the fact that I was raised on ridiculously good food. I wasn't even in the wrong, but I wanted to just implode my way out of that conversation.

 

[Thaluikhain]

TL;DR What's the difference between racism, stereotypes, and cultural norms?

This is a very awkward issue.

I would say, though, that a person absolutely, positively, definitely can be racist without intending any malice. For that matter, most people don't do things that they consider to be seriously wrong, doesn't stop them from being so.

For example, many Aboriginal Australian children were taken from their families because it was assumed that they'd not be cared for properly, and they'd be better off given to some white household. At least nominally this was well-intended, but with horrific results.

More recently, people passionately campaigning for Aboriginal Australians to be granted land traditionally held by them often get very upset when the new owners do something they don't see as being Aboriginal enough.

...

By extension, not wanting to be racist is not the same as not being racist. It's very easy to say "I'm not racist", but then you should go on to explain why all the things that make a society and people in it racist do not apply to you, and good luck coming up with something believable.

Now, if someone is conscious of being racist, they can take steps to minimise it, and stop it from being a problem, same as everyone else, but they are still liable to get things wrong from time to time, and not acknowledging that really isn't helpful.

 

[Esotera]

Sounds like stereotyping at the very least, as if they'd just wanted to know what type of rice you like it wouldn't have had "Hey you're Hispanic right" attached to the front of it. I guess racism would be doing a similar thing but trying to put you down because of it. As for the cultural norm it would mean that a group is more likely to do something than the general population, but an individual isn't necessarily going to do it - if I said that every Irishman drinks Guinness, I would be stereotyping based on the fact it's more popular in Ireland.

I don't see too much trouble with stereotyping as long as it's not a regular thing and hasn't offended anyone. The last place I worked a white guy was always using negative stereotypes when talking to a black girl and it was fairly awkward as I'm fairly sure he didn't consciously realise.

 

[EeveeElectro]

What's so WRONG with liking rice? I'd understand getting angry if someone said, "Hey, you're Muslim, what's your favourite part of America to bomb?"* but asking what rice you like and losing your shit over it?
It may be stereotyping but it's not exactly negative. I've been asked "You're a Brit, what's your favourite tea?" (It's Earl Grey btw) and I didn't take offence.

Some people are SO sensitive it's hard to have a conversation with them because you have to watch everything you say. If the person wasn't being malicious then you shouldn't be offended. There's people who enjoy watching others squirm and make them feel bad. There needs to be a better level of education when it comes to racism because people throw the word around so much it's losing all meaning. Some people try so hard to be PC they don't have a clue what they're talking about most of the time.

Example, I once had a tiff with an Asian lad at school. It was over something stupid and no way to do with ethnicity. When people found out, they said "You're arguing with him because you're racist!" when our argument was over something like he barged into me and winded me so I shouted after him, "watch where you're going, you prick!"
Nothing about ethnicity was mentioned but a load of people were calling me racist because we had a tiff and we were different skin colours.


I don't think calling someone black is racist. Not in the UK at least, I know America is a bit different. You're just describing the colour of their skin. If someone accuses you of being racist for calling a person black, the problem probably lies with them because they're the one who instantly assumes being called black is a bad thing. I'm a pasty ass white girl and I don't get offended by being called white.


Also, can I ask why you don't support LGBT? There's nothing wrong about you not supporting it, I just wonder why.

*Please don't think this is my opinion or something I would actually say.

 

[Rosiv]

What's so WRONG with liking rice? I'd understand getting angry if someone said, "Hey, you're Muslim, what's your favourite part of America to bomb?"* but asking what rice you like and losing your shit over it?
It may be stereotyping but it's not exactly negative. I've been asked "You're a Brit, what's your favourite tea?" (It's Earl Grey btw) and I didn't take offence.

I think its cause you are stereotyping, as you said. I mean, making assumptions based on sketchy "general truths" can cause people who don't fit them to feel a bit, out of place no? I mean i guess the conversation would go like this:
........................................................
White guy: So your Asians, what type of rice do you like?

Asian guy: I don't like rice. (internal thoughts: i guess Asians are suppose to like rice)
........................................................................................


It wasn't a very creative conversation, but i think it demonstrated the point, someone assumed, the assumption wasn't true, and i guess it was offensive because it was presumptuous, as in pre assuming. And if you google the word, you can see the negative connotations with it. I guess its akin to calling homosexuals "abnormal", in a statistical sense its true, but the word is so loaded, it wouldn't really fly well with strangers you weren't familiar with. I'm not rallying against you BTW, just wanted to comment, so sorry if it came of as confrontational.

 

[EeveeElectro]

-snip-

No no, it's fine and I agree. You should prejudge or assume about anyone because you can look ignorant but as far as things go, assuming they like rice is pretty tame.
When 50 Shades Of Gray was at it's peak, the girls at work were forever asking me, "OMG, how good is it? I love it, don't you?" and were always shocked (but understanding) to hear that I hated the thing. I'll admit that pissed me off a little bit because they assumed I'd like something because it was popular with women.
They didn't mean any harm by it, so I didn't take offence. However I DID once take offence to a man asking me "Hey, you're one of those stupid women, I bet you love 50 Shades, don't you?"
We can see there's some actual sexism and ignorance behind that, whereas OPs example just sounded curious but could have worded himself much better.

 

[OneCatch]

What say you fellow Escapists? Where do you draw the line between these kinds of things? Do you even consider there to be a line? Does every instance have it's own variables without a set parameter to determine racist-ness(?) by? I can expand on my thoughts or give more examples if necessary, but please post your own views and positions and give us all something to think about. As for me, I'm off to play Psychonauts and try to beat that F*^%#&G target practice mini-game in Coach Oleander's mind!

TL;DR What's the difference between racism, stereotypes, and cultural norms?

The closest thing I've got that could be used in a similar sense is being vegetarian. Obviously it's utterly trivial compared to racism, but it is something of a microcosm, involving the same kinds of tropes.

There are certain things that you always get asked:
----------------
What do you have for Christmas Dinner?
Do you eat fish?
Were you brought up like that?
Oh Lordy, how do you get enough [insert some nutrient type here]?
----------------

And it does get a bit tiresome (seriously, ask any veggie what they get asked most and they'll a] Hug you for asking something different and b] reel off some variant of the above list). But the people asking aren't being anti-vegetarian - it's just harmless curiosity.

Now, what I also get is people assuming I'm some treehuging hippy, which is altogether different because they aren't asking out of curiosity, they're assuming a trait based on very little evidence.
And that actually does make me bristle a bit.

-------

Breaking it down further - I think the distinction may like with the assumption itself.
So, I'd not mind if someone asked me if I was a treehugging hippy, but assuming that I am would piss me off.

And with your case, you weren't offended because the way you saw it the person wasn't assuming that you had to love rice, but your colleague was offended because of the implied assumption that you'd all have an opinion on rice because of your race.
A very fine line indeed, and I can sympathise with both points of view because at core it's an issue of the semantics of the question.

---------

Generally, I don't think you can come up with cast-iron rules because there are so many variables - I think the best you can do is try not to make assumptions about people, and apologise if you do offend someone.
Conversely, try not to get angry when people ask you stupid questions, and if needed gently point out that their statements they're asking are a bit stereotypical or daft.

 

[Flatfrog]

Stereotyping isn't necessarily wrong, it's just lazy. It classifies a person by assumed traits rather than getting to know the person directly. But then, it's not unreasonable to do that, because a lot of the time stereotypes are also statistically accurate (and when they aren't, that's when they become racist/sexist/etc). If you don't know someone well, it's not unreasonable to have a few pencilled-in mental guesses about them. 'He's a black guy from an inner-city neighbourhood, he probably likes rap music'.

What's important is to be *aware* of making those mental guesses - to know that lots of them are probably wrong, and not to act on them as facts without confirming them in some way.

An example - I was just reading a book which played with this very nicely and caught me out in a classic beginner-level stereotyping error that made me kick myself. The book featured a character who is working as a nanny for the baby of a Dr Hooper. And a few paragraphs in, Dr Hooper comes in and starts breastfeeding the baby. And I felt the mental brakes screeching as I had to replace the Dr Hooper in my head with a female version, while berating myself as a sexist dick.

 

[TeaCeremony]

I think its all personal tbh. I say rascist things all the time to my friends (I'm viet and i play online with Singaporeans,Americans, French, Chinese, Japanese etc and its all done in a light hearted manner. But sometimes people will get offended over something they took in stride many times before because of their mood or something similar.

However when talking to strangers i often dont notice their race and just talk about everything normally... maybe its the way you talk casually and not focus on certain aspects (i.e. rice when talking to asians) that they consider it normal as well and not get offended.

 

[ninjaRiv]

Imo, it's only racism if it's intentionally hostile. If someone stereotypes, they're just misinformed, I think. Assuming things about a culture is, again, just a mistake. Surely it's just a case of saying "that's not actually how it is" and then explaining how it is? Rather than claiming racism? Seems to me a lot of fights regarding racial differences could be settled by everyone taking a step back, breathing and explaining things a bit better.

 

[SquidSponge]

"The line" is exactly where an individual draws it. The problem is, this line is at best barely visible to others, and sometimes to yourself. I think of it like a radius extending around a person.

Some people draw the line way out wide and take offense at trivialities, other people keep it close and don't give a f*ck. Most rational, self-respecting, well-adjusted people (assuming "rational person" isn't a contradiction in terms) put it somewhere between.

As long as two individuals' radii roughly match up, they can "approach" each other without either party crossing lines, so everything's fine and dandy. The problem comes when someone with a small radius wanders close to someone with a large radius - because that means they've crossed the second person's "line", often without realising it.

That's my take on sensitivity anyway. As for stereotyping, [x]ism, malice and intent, I'll decline to comment at this juncture.

(Note my very deliberate avoidance of examples, that way madness lies. Also, flamewars.)

 

[Thaluikhain]

Imo, it's only racism if it's intentionally hostile. If someone stereotypes, they're just misinformed, I think. Assuming things about a culture is, again, just a mistake. Surely it's just a case of saying "that's not actually how it is" and then explaining how it is? Rather than claiming racism? Seems to me a lot of fights regarding racial differences could be settled by everyone taking a step back, breathing and explaining things a bit better.

Assuming that, after the problem is explained, the person listens and takes it to heart, then presumably it's not racism.

OTOH, an awful lot of the time people firmly convinced they aren't racist will go out of their way not to do this, actively avoiding learning about it.

 

[Karoshi]

Different cultures have different cuisines and as a Hispanic you might have a preference for specific rice - or none at all. No clue about that.

Personally, I think there are stereotypes about every country and only the negative or very stupid stereotypes should be considered racist.

 

[Angie7F]

People who are too sensitive are racist.
I mean, we have generalized stereotypes. We cant help that.

I currently work with a variety of ethnicity and nationalities but I am open about my knowledge and ask questions out of pure interest.
I know some of my questions are from pure ignorance and may come off as having stereotypes, but I use it as a gauge to learn about them better.
If you have no bad intentions and express your open mind nothing should come off as being racist.

 

[siomasm]

How ironic that the first instance fit the stereotype of "Easily angered and quick to lash out Hispanic women" when being questioned on a stereotype, though I would say the man asking was in the wrong, especially if he prefaces a question with "Hey you're X race" as though it should have any relevance to question.

Generally speaking, a member of a particular race is more likely to belong to any specific selection of cultures, which could impress certain values or principals upon the individual, but it is offensive to make assumptions based off that. For instance, a black man living in a low income neighborhood of Detroit has a good chance of being a part of the "Gangbanger" culture.
Though alternatively it could just as easily be a white or Hispanic man who is part of the same culture and just as easily a black man of average American culture just trying to make ends meet.

Of course, this is considered "Profiling". Which begs the question, what are stereotypes to profiling? A set of general values assigned to a society as opposed to a series of observations that concludes a likely set of values? I'm sure someone can quote wikipedia.

At any rate I don't often deal with people of other races but there are basically two ways of handling it. Either toss around light hearted jokes equally treating race with levity or just treat everyone the same irrespective of race.

 

[Something Amyss]

"Hey, you're Hispanic right? Which do you like better, white or yellow rice?"

That's probably a touch racist, mostly because of the conjunction between the two thoughts. Stereotypes often have roots in racism, and "rice" related comments have historically been used racially regarding Hispanic and Asians.

Fair play to you if you're not offended, though. That's your right.

I'm curious about this, however:

This led me to thinking, where exactly is the line drawn between issues like this? And not just in matters of race; in matters of gender, religion, political standpoint, and sexuality as well. Let me give you another example. a few months ago I was asked by a mutual acquaintance (whom I did not know very well but nevertheless knew that I was homosexual) if I would like to attend an LGBTQ rally with her. Not being a supporter of the LGBTQ movement, I naturally said no and explained my reasons and was surprised to see the look of near incomprehension she wore and how downright flabbergasted she was when hearing that I wasn't both gay AND a LGBTQ member.

Since LGBT (plus whatever other letters you wish to add) isn't a collective, but a rather vague and loose community, I'm curious as to why you would not consider yourself part of it. It's not like there's a specific ideology; rather, it's like hearing that a woman believes she doesn't deserve the same rights and responsibilities as a man. The only thing that really springs to mind is that it's an issue of diction, like the afforementioned women simply hating the term feminism rather than thinking she didn't deserve the same rights.

Back to the actual question, stereotypes and racism always overlap. It's a misnomer that racism is somehow specifically intentional or hostile. Even the most strict definitions deal with someone believing certain races are better or worse at certain things, which leads to the Asian driver or the black athlete. You don't have to actually hate anyone to think "blacks are good at sports, Asians are good at math, Jews are good with money." That doesn't mean they're not racist statements.

At the same time, stereotypes are often used in a racial way. Rice does come up a lot with Asians and "Mecicans." Now, I'm from Vermont, so we don't have many Hispanic/Latino people up here, but there's always been a huge Asian community. My neighbourhood had zero blacks, but a Thai family, two Chinese families and...I want to say Korean, but I don't remember. Similarly, almost no black people, but that's not the point. I heard a lot of "rice" cracks growing up, including the "rice dick" thing. That combines the stereotype of eating rice with the stereotype of having small penises. That may or may not relate to Hispanics, as I don't know how endowed they are supposed to be racially.

That doesn't mean there isn't some cultural truth to the statements: Asians who have trouble will the letters R and L, for example. Doesn't mean you can't be incredibly racist in talking about it. It depends, largely, on context.

We also, in American culture, have this tendency to assume anyone with different skin is a ferner. Us white folk (though I'm only half-white, so maybe this is half-true of me) frequently marvel at any person with browner skin than ours speaks the language. Even people who were born and raised here can get "my, you speak such good English."

The other person who got offended may have taken the comment as a comment of adherence to Latino culture. Depending on the locale, the assumption may be that y'all are fresh from the other side of the border, complete with your cultural differences (which Americans despise, hence "breathing while brown" laws). That still may not bother you, I don't know. there is frequently, although not always, an implication of inferiority at cultural difference.

And on a related note:

 

[ninjaRiv]

Imo, it's only racism if it's intentionally hostile. If someone stereotypes, they're just misinformed, I think. Assuming things about a culture is, again, just a mistake. Surely it's just a case of saying "that's not actually how it is" and then explaining how it is? Rather than claiming racism? Seems to me a lot of fights regarding racial differences could be settled by everyone taking a step back, breathing and explaining things a bit better.

Assuming that, after the problem is explained, the person listens and takes it to heart, then presumably it's not racism.

OTOH, an awful lot of the time people firmly convinced they aren't racist will go out of their way not to do this, actively avoiding learning about it.

Yes... Those people really are a bother. It's difficult to explain to some people that they're wrong, especially when it comes to culture. I mean, did you see the Twitter trends during the Boston bombing? When they finally identified the bombers the majority of trends were based around "OMG, they're not Muslim!" And even then, some people kinda carried on thinking they were or claimed they were innocent due to their race. We live in an odd world, my man.