RANT: Weapons on your back

[MGlBlaze]

As for rain and such... it won't hurt your sword in the short term to be wet, as long as you clean it regularly. Same as being in leather. Leave a real, tempered carbon steel sword in a leather scabbard for a week or so, and you'll need to be cleaning some rust off. Real steel is a different ballgame from display swords or foam.

Spoiler: I learned that the hard way

before my mistake:

after my mistake:

after a week of rust removal:

Out of curiosity, are your LARP weapons foam-wrapped PVC, or harder foam molded into sword-shapes? I've had the former, but not the latter.

As someone who has started to collect swords (Nothing super-expensive yet, but Hanwei does some nice functional swords at a reasonable price, and I'm considering getting a long sword from Valiant Armory) the center picture makes me wanna cry.

You were able to get the rust off, though, which is good.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Some of the previous replies and myself included, concluded that having sparks or a little light when you equip the weapon, gives the impression that the weapon is secured by a spell. Or a small hook on your back to strab it on, maybe it won't fit, but it's a way of saying: "There is a hook, this is how you sheathe your weapon"

I don't know, worked for Kartos, and Silent Hill 2. It doesn't get in the way if it's not visible, but when it dangles around, that turns on my gears.

I'm all for sparkly magical reasoning providing my character CAN use magic. I did however think that The Legend of Zelda did it really well. If there was a space between the scabbard and Link's back I didn't see it because the shield hid it.

Features like a method of holding the weapon should probably be implemented for third person view games, but a first person like the Elder Scrolls series don't need it as badly.
I wouldn't completely dismiss magnets though. I don't know how potent a lodestone's magnetic field can be, but they've been around for some time and are a possible method of carrying iron weapons. Either that or we can suggest a kind of in game wonder magnet that's implemented into each piece of armour.

Speaking on the behalf of Geralt, he's a fricking Witcher. There's probably some kind of magical mumbo jumbo that keeps that huge ass sword on his back.

 

[loc978]

As for rain and such... it won't hurt your sword in the short term to be wet, as long as you clean it regularly. Same as being in leather. Leave a real, tempered carbon steel sword in a leather scabbard for a week or so, and you'll need to be cleaning some rust off. Real steel is a different ballgame from display swords or foam.

Spoiler: I learned that the hard way

before my mistake:

after my mistake:

after a week of rust removal:

Out of curiosity, are your LARP weapons foam-wrapped PVC, or harder foam molded into sword-shapes? I've had the former, but not the latter.

As someone who has started to collect swords (Nothing super-expensive yet, but Hanwei does some nice functional swords at a reasonable price, and I'm considering getting a long sword from Valiant Armory) the center picture makes me wanna cry.

You were able to get the rust off, though, which is good.

...made me want to cry a little too. Especially when I look at all of my "before" pictures of that sword. I don't think I'll ever be able to get that level of polish back, though I do try on occasion.

 

[Lenvoran]

I have to agree with the OP.

Drawing a blade, even from some crazy impossible scabbard that wouldn't work in reality but at least -looks- plausible, would be a detail that could really impress me. It's a little detail that shows me that the development team was paying attention to that part of the visual design.

I like my characters to be powerful, yes, but I also like my characters to be believable. The more believable my character is, both in appearance and personality, the more I can connect with that character and the world the inhabit.

...That anime clip actually shows a rather good way to do it. That'd be cool.

And yes. Matching the animation of a scabbard and sword is tough. Especially when people can select the dimensions of their character's body. However... In Dragon Age, everyone of the same race had the exact same body. Only the head was different.

As for the scraping sound? It's a little silly. Although... You could explain it by saying that the scabbard is magically sharpening the blade as it is drawn. Or something.

 

[emptyother]

Yeah, they could at least try to reduce those 2 inches with floating air in Dragon Age by at least keeping them closer.

No, they couldnt: They are more afraid of "clipping errors" than "floating swords" appearantly. Probably because somebody thinks it looks ugly on screenshots.

 

[default]

@loc798 Nice pic, but I still insist it's more practical to have your weapon in a sheath by the waist, you have to consider that you're very less mobile with the sword equipped and that it's not protected by rain.

oh, it's more practical and faster with a sword short enough not to drag on the ground, certainly... but with a hand-and-a-halfer on up, the back tends to be a more practical place for it. You actually lose a LOT more mobility having a sword waggling around by your legs hanging from a double-wrap belt than you do from one strapped tightly to your back.
As for rain and such... it won't hurt your sword in the short term to be wet, as long as you clean it regularly. Same as being in leather. Leave a real, tempered carbon steel sword in a leather scabbard for a week or so, and you'll need to be cleaning some rust off. Real steel is a different ballgame from display swords or foam.

Spoiler: I learned that the hard way

before my mistake:

after my mistake:

after a week of rust removal:

Out of curiosity, are your LARP weapons foam-wrapped PVC, or harder foam molded into sword-shapes? I've had the former, but not the latter.

Yeah, I recently bought a carbon-steel katana and foolishly wiped off all the koji oil it came slathered in. Somehow a bit of water got into the sheath, and I pulled out my katana after a couple of days to find rust over a bit of the lower half D:

It's fine now, but it taught me a valuable lesson: DO YOUR RESEARCH!!

But on topic...

This is a classic case of shortcut designing. There's nothing wrong with it of course, as long as it's done well. Even if it's floating (it would be hard to have a jump point for every different piece of armour and clothing), at least put a strap on the model or a sheath...


Seriously, my captcha was just:

arrescu (pi symbol)kl=(pi symbol)k

I don't know about you, but I don't have a pi symbol on my keyboard...

 

[Sarge034]

I know right. I hate it when games are NOT JUST LIKE THE REAL WORLD. Chill out, it's a game.

I ***** where I please, and I please where I *****.

Ok, then don't play those games that make you angry. Go play the Sims or something...
>RANT UNDERMINDED<

Also, what does the second part of your reply even mean? I think U HAS FAIL TROLL!!!1111

They don't make me angry. It's the small part of otherwise excellent games that should just have they weapons in a belivable way (wow I repeat myself a lot). Is it too much to demand from a game to make sense in its own world? Like, it makes sense that there are flying cars in "Blade Runner" because its the future,

Ok, so magic makes sense in WoW. Who is to say that it is not magic that is holding your weapon? Mass effect fields make sense in ME1 and ME2. So who is to say that a mass effect field is not holding your weapons? Magic makes sense in DA:O and DA2. So who is to say that magic is not holding your weapon? So no, I don't think it is too much to DEMAND that a game makes since in its own world. Is it too much to ask that you realize they are all fictional worlds and therefor can do whatever they want?

it's the norm. Floating weapons do not make a damn sense in the world they're in, and it's an easy problem to fix.

I made them make sense in WoW, ME1, ME2, DA:O, and DA2. They are an easy fix are they? Are you a professional programmer or just the peanut gallery? My money is on the latter.

The second part means, that some have wondered about the same thing and agree with me. Maybe not, but still. I haz a point.

So in short you have no idea what you meant to say in the second part. Got it.

EDIT: If I wanted to troll, I'd speak about something controversial or insulting. This is a very minor problem.

If this is so minor why waste our time by making a thread about it?

Do you see yourself as some sort of police or something? Judging from your profile pic it's hard not to get the thought

I AM CAPTAIN GORDON FREEMAN OF THE INTERGALACTIC HOUSE OF PANCAKES..... YOU DARE DEFY MY ORDERS?!?!

BTW.... My profile pic eliminates trolls with extreme prejudice. I police nothing and take no prisoners.

 

[Mouse One]

I honestly don't know of any historical examples of sheaths on the back that were intended to allow drawing. I'd be curious if anyone knows of any examples to the contrary.

Of course, fantasy weapons are in general way bigger than the real ones were. I mean typical 15th long swords (i.e. Bastard swords, hand and a half) were somewhere around the 40ish inch range, give or take. Carrying one at your side is really no big deal.

Even the stupidly long (imho ) rapiers of the early 17th were worn on the side, with a mildly elaborate suspension system on the sword belt. I used to hang with English Civil War reenactors, even gone marching with a repro rapier (for the record, they were discouraged because they were pretty much useless in battle. But upper class Royalist twits wore them all the time).

But I digress. Really, it IS a fantasy game, so go ahead and sling those swords on the back. Hey, it looks cool, just like that elf girl weilding a 7 foot long executioner's sword like it's a baton.

 

[mireko]

I think the problem is that when these games feature tons and tons of different weapons, then you can't standardize the scabbards/sheaths. Otherwise every weapon model will have to come with its own specific holders, forcing the designers to spend time they could be using on more important things.

It's still better than invisible-until-needed weapons, though.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I was under the impression it was to stop clipping issues. There's a bunch of unused sword and armour models for Oblivion; unused because the back mounted weapons clipped through hoods and legs. It's easily fixed with a mod so that there's no space between the blade and back and a kind of harness to make it look better.

Still I don't quite understand the magnets thing for Gears of War and Mass Effect... if the magnets are strong enough to keep a friggin long gun attached to X's back whilst going throught he rough and tumble in the field; how do they get it off?

This is generally the reason that such things actually occur. In a game like Oblivion, where weapons and armor can be mixed quite liberally, clipping becomes a major concern. Combating it "properly" requires an enormous amount of work (changing the placement and animations of sheathed weapons for any of hundreds of possible combination of weapons and armor). By contrast, simply using a default system where the weapon simply floats near the player results in far fewer clipping problems but introduces the issue that is the subject of the rant here.

 

[Christian Lerche]

I know right. I hate it when games are NOT JUST LIKE THE REAL WORLD. Chill out, it's a game.

I ***** where I please, and I please where I *****.

Ok, then don't play those games that make you angry. Go play the Sims or something...
>RANT UNDERMINDED<

Also, what does the second part of your reply even mean? I think U HAS FAIL TROLL!!!1111

They don't make me angry. It's the small part of otherwise excellent games that should just have they weapons in a belivable way (wow I repeat myself a lot). Is it too much to demand from a game to make sense in its own world? Like, it makes sense that there are flying cars in "Blade Runner" because its the future,

Ok, so magic makes sense in WoW. Who is to say that it is not magic that is holding your weapon? Mass effect fields make sense in ME1 and ME2. So who is to say that a mass effect field is not holding your weapons? Magic makes sense in DA:O and DA2. So who is to say that magic is not holding your weapon? So no, I don't think it is too much to DEMAND that a game makes since in its own world. Is it too much to ask that you realize they are all fictional worlds and therefor can do whatever they want?

it's the norm. Floating weapons do not make a damn sense in the world they're in, and it's an easy problem to fix.

I made them make sense in WoW, ME1, ME2, DA:O, and DA2. They are an easy fix are they? Are you a professional programmer or just the peanut gallery? My money is on the latter.

The second part means, that some have wondered about the same thing and agree with me. Maybe not, but still. I haz a point.

So in short you have no idea what you meant to say in the second part. Got it.

EDIT: If I wanted to troll, I'd speak about something controversial or insulting. This is a very minor problem.

If this is so minor why waste our time by making a thread about it?

Do you see yourself as some sort of police or something? Judging from your profile pic it's hard not to get the thought

I AM CAPTAIN GORDON FREEMAN OF THE INTERGALACTIC HOUSE OF PANCAKES..... YOU DARE DEFY MY ORDERS?!?!

BTW.... My profile pic eliminates trolls with extreme prejudice. I police nothing and take no prisoners.

Alright, I'm not even going to take this seriously, if you're more interested in taking this to a personal matter you may as well PM me but I'll answer this nonetheless.

Magic is not expected to hold your weapon since it's never mentioned, shown, or even hinted at. It's just there, and yes, I can see the clipping issue, but for me, this is a step backwards since just having your weapon spawn as you enter combat, or just having them in your hands all the time worked, for my part, better in ways of immersion, which is my way of experiencing games.

My frustration lies in this being the norm in modern fantasy RPGs, and that while it is a minor issue, it's something I'd rather avoid. There has been shown to through this thread, that it is indeed possible to have your weapon on your back practicably, and examples of believable ways to do so.

So, since it's fictional and it doesn't have to make sense, why don't we all fly on Pegasuses and dual-wield two handed war hammers while bombarding the evil "Outragous Creature Here"?
It's my impression, that serious mature fantasy games keeps it self in a world we can believe in. Like *MAJOR SPOILERS* when one of your family members dies and deal with it in a very serious way even though we've just been knocking out dragons. Or when you create your character, you're only allowed a few conversation options even though we could answer every NPC with the phrase: "Marmalade" and still get the quest.

The games are trying to teach something, send out a message, try to deliver something they think is important, it's not all fun and games and un-seriousness, that's the stuff like bulletstorm or something along the those lines. Our characters make choices and deal with the consequences, that is deep, and a few decades back, this was unreachable. All i I ask, is to designer, devolpers and programmes alike, to take notice to even the smallest of things.

And since you are still reading, I thank you for paying attention even though you've it clear you do not agree with me.


And with that I thank everyone who've cared to listen, and the excellent feedback, you've thought me something and I hope you understand my perspective even though a lot do not agree, and some stood with the same thought.

Now, back to posting issues regarding the unrealistic characters who speak fluent english and have an ethnic accent but never talks in their national language....

 

[Wolfram23]

floating weapons definitely break the immersion - at least when the rest of the graphics and art look so nice.

Dragon Age 2 is a terrible offender of floating weapons. FUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[slipknot4]

I STOPPED PLAYING WORLD OF WARCRAFT BECAUSE OF THIS! I HATE FLOATY THINGS!

 

[Sarge034]

Alright, I'm not even going to take this seriously, if you're more interested in taking this to a personal matter you may as well PM me but I'll answer this nonetheless.

LOL wut? Everything I wrote was in response to what you have stated as having a problem with. The last section was an obvious joke to break the tention and show no hard feelings, but it was still in response to you.

Magic is not expected to hold your weapon since it's never mentioned, shown, or even hinted at.

Magic is never shown? Really, that is your argument? Does the game have to show you the NPC's and PC's breath or do you take it on faith?

It's just there, and yes, I can see the clipping issue, but for me, this is a step backwards since just having your weapon spawn as you enter combat, or just having them in your hands all the time worked, for my part, better in ways of immersion, which is my way of experiencing games.

So you stay immersed when you are walking around in a medieval RPG and pull a sword out of thin air when you have to fight? That seems like it would be less immersive. Holding the weapon will break immersion when you climb, jump, crawl, and go into places that it is innapropriate to have a weapon drawn in.

So, since it's fictional and it doesn't have to make sense, why don't we all fly on Pegasuses and dual-wield two handed war hammers while bombarding the evil "Outragous Creature Here"?

If it fits in the game's world.... sure we could.

It's my impression, that serious mature fantasy games keeps it self in a world we can believe in. Like *MAJOR SPOILERS* when one of your family members dies and deal with it in a very serious way even though we've just been knocking out dragons. Or when you create your character, you're only allowed a few conversation options even though we could answer every NPC with the phrase: "Marmalade" and still get the quest.

So this comes down to the fact that you dislike a game setting that pulls too far away from reality. I'm sorry to be the one to beak it to you but they are called fantasy RPG's for a reason. As for the speech options.... They will never be able to write a dialog that encompasses EVERY answer. This cannot be done. There would be too many variables in the story from all of the different conversations. Think of it as being an exponential variable equation that starts with infinity. They script several game endings and put as many speech options in that will lead to those endings as possible.

And since you are still reading, I thank you for paying attention even though you've it clear you do not agree with me.

I do not disagree with you. I disagree with your point of view. I agree it would be nice if the weapons and armor reacted in a realistic way, but I don't see why it is a deal breaker for you. Don't sweat the little things, you'll live longer.

 

[ToxicOranges]

I can only say, from a designers point of view, putting something like this ----> http://www.multiplayergames.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/wow_imba.jpg
on one's belt, is slightly difficult.
Admittedly though, not all weapons in games are on the back - in WoW for example, all 1 onehanded weapons are kept on the belt. Things that require two hands (and are two heavy and / or awkward for the belt) are placed on the back. How does it stay there? Well... magic.

I get your point, but it seems picky. Is it easier to run with a sword on the belt or your back? Which one allows you to easily crouch or squat? Which one lets you roll or dodge when not drawn?
I vote weapons on back.

 

[El_Nastro]

Totally agree with the OP.

Swords-on-backs have been a pet peeve of mine since...forever.

Why do they do it?

Because it's soooo keeeeeewwwwl. It's sooooooo 1337. It's like, totally, what a NINJA does, and it has more, like, STYLE.

Also, because many of the people who make these apparently think it was actually done that way. That's why.

It has nothing to do with the designers wanting to make sure we see their awesome weapon, or any other weird reason. It's because some people think it looks "ninja" - like bigass anime-style shoulderpads.

Furthermore, in real life it's not any more practical, it's not more comfortable, and is in no way better. Wearing a sword on your back is the opposite of those things; it's uncomfortable, awkward, and impractical. Think about it....when these weapons were used, it's not as if people weren't capable of conceiving and making a "back-scabbard" - of course they were, but apparently they chose not to. There's 0 evidence it ever happened. No physical remains of "back-scabbards", no illustrations, and no written description. None. Anywhere.

Even larger 2-handed swords weren't worn on the back. They were carried. We have illustrations of people carrying them & resting the sword on the shoulder, but not scabbarded.

The only reference to anything resembling a back-scabbard (that I know of) is from an old Museum Replicas Ltd. Catalog, where they mention that sometimes there was a harness used to carry a large sword to the battle, whereupon the entire harness was taken off (because it was impossible to draw the sword from the back harness), and the harness was discarded. And this is a Museum Replicas catalog, not an actual book. MRL is the J. Peterman of historic weaponry....they make up little stories as a marketing ploy.

So we have zero evidence of any sort for back-scabbards ever having existed anywhere at anytime. The reason there's NO evidence for it is because people never did it because it's stupid.

I put Swords-on-backs in the same category as the notion that the katana is the Ultimate Sword of Absolute Martial Deadliness and can cut through anything and thus is the Best-Sword-In-The-Game even if the game is ostensibly European in tone (like Fable 2 or Oblivion).

I don't think we'll have to put up with it for much longer though, now that Western Martial Arts & organizations like ARMA are gaining traction. Seems like more and more people (especially online) are all of sudden experts on Talhoffer & have nothing but scorn for the katana, so I hope eventually this back-scabbard nonsense will go away.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Why do they do it?

Because it's soooo keeeeeewwwwl. It's sooooooo 1337. It's like, totally, what a NINJA does, and it has more, like, STYLE.

Also, because many of the people who make these apparently think it was actually done that way. That's why.

No, they do it because of clipping issues. Don't insult an entire industry based on peeves and assumptions.

 

[badgersprite]

I bet this has already been said, but, "Attaching Velcro to your sword is an old adventurer's trick!"

Yeah, it usually doesn't bug me at all, because I can understand how it would be really difficult or really annoying to animate all the different swords/staffs/maces/bows fitting into some sort of sheath/scabbard/pouch/loop that also allows the player to conveniently see which weapon they are equipped with. Also, on another level, swords look cool and I as a player like showing them off. But it was either the most recent time I played Oblivion or during DA2 that I REALLY noticed this to the point where it took me out of the game.

 

[darth.pixie]

I had this conversation not two days ago with a friend. I kept asking how the hell does mage Hawke puts his stick away. Staff, spear, glaive...whatever. In a realistic sense I mean. How does he do it? Is there like a hook thingy on his back? I mean, it's not like a sword that has a scabbard...also considering that the blade is down, does it cut at his knees? Does it have straps? How do you keep that on your back?

It annoyed me quite a lot and eventually my friend told me to knock it off. It's magic. Still...is there a way to properly tie a stick to your back and be able to put it back on?

And on the Witcher, it was that more annoying that he had another sword at his belt and knife near his boot. But you can draw it from your back, I've done it and seen it. (I own swords...many in fact). It takes some practice to do it in a fluid motion just as say getting arrows from your back. Watch a rookie try to do it and he'll bend over backwards to reach them. (which I have also done way back when)

 

[El_Nastro]

Why do they do it?

Because it's soooo keeeeeewwwwl. It's sooooooo 1337. It's like, totally, what a NINJA does, and it has more, like, STYLE.

Also, because many of the people who make these apparently think it was actually done that way. That's why.

No, they do it because of clipping issues. Don't insult an entire industry based on peeves and assumptions.

Not buyin' it. I suppose there might be some technical issues involved, but that argument falls apart when we acknowledge that:


A.) Not all games do swords-on-backs (Oblivion & Morrowind, for instance), so it can't be all THAT difficult. Besides, when I look at all the other aspects of computer graphics & see the things that are possible, the idea that hip-worn swords presents a significant challenge is a bit silly.

B.) We see swords-on-backs in movies, anime, western animation, comics, book-cover illustrations, miniatures, etc. etc., so it's not just a gaming-thing.

The reason we see so much swords-on-backs (or "s.o.b.") is nothing more than convention. Back-scabbards are a stylistic choice, and kind of a stupid one.

I'm not sure exactly how or where the swords-on-backs idea was originally spawned, but at this point it's just taken for granted, & designers probably do it without even thinking about it, because, y'know....that's where a sword goes. Everyone knows that. Shoes are worn on the feet, hats go on heads, gloves are for hands, and swords are worn on the back.