Rape vs Violence: A Double Standard

[4RM3D]

With the fuss about rape in games (and E3), I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. I'm just going to throw it into an opposite direction.

Rape is a delicate subject. Rape has been discussed in movies[footnote]not talking about porn movies[/footnote] for ages, but now that it has reached the gaming community, the shit has hit the fan. I think I understand the situation. The game industry is very young compared to the movie industry. And the game industry is still learning, still experimenting, still finding its place in society. And now it has to find a place for the subject of rape. What doesn't help is the whole other discussion of women as object.

But I digress. So let me get to the point I want to make. Rape is a bad thing. But so is war and (mindless) violence. We[footnote]well, most of us[/footnote] are okay driving over a group of innocent people (GTA / Carmageddon), we are okay blowing someone's brain out in slow motion (Fallout 3), but when rape comes along that is not okay.

Lets jump back in time to the Nintendo era. When you asked if someone wants to come over to play computer games, you were branded a nerd, an outcast. Nowadays all the cool kids have a console and play Call of Duty. Heck, if you don't play games nowadays, you don't belong. Quite the 180 the game industry pulled.

I am not seeing rape going that way. I just think we have a double standard here.

Or to put it bluntly: if games are an outlet to fantasy, the content of the game doesn't matter because it is just a game.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Ok, I won't defend games like GTA or Carmageddon in which violence is committed just for its own sake. But, for the most game with violent content, there is usually some sort of justification for murder. It's war. They killed your dog. They are bad people, they are your enemies. In some sense you're justified in killing them. But rape... you don't rape your enemies. Rape is an act that is committed because... fuck, I don't even know. Ok, let me put it this way. You can picture a hero killing his enemies for a greater cause. But, you can not, for the love of god, picture a hero that would rape someone, even his mortal enemy. That's all I got, I suck at explaining my thoughts.

 

[BeeGeenie]

Ok, I won't defend games like GTA or Carmageddon in which violence is committed just for its own sake. But, for the most game with violent content, there is usually some sort of justification for murder. It's war. They killed your dog. They are bad people, they are your enemies. In some sense you're justified in killing them. But rape... you don't rape your enemies. Rape is an act that is committed because... fuck, I don't even know. Ok, let me put it this way. You can picture a hero killing his enemies for a greater cause. But, you can not, for the love of god, picture a hero that would rape someone, even his mortal enemy. That's all I got, I suck at explaining my thoughts.

^ This. It's a question of motive and justification. Killing can *sometimes* be justified (granted, videogames can come up with some pretty flimsy excuses). Rape is never okay because there will never be a reasonable justification for it.

 

[4RM3D]

Ok, I won't defend games like GTA or Carmageddon in which violence is committed just for its own sake. But, for the most game with violent content, there is usually some sort of justification for murder. It's war. They killed your dog. They are bad people, they are your enemies. In some sense you're justified in killing them. But rape... you don't rape your enemies. Rape is an act that is committed because... fuck, I don't even know. Ok, let me put it this way. You can picture a hero killing his enemies for a greater cause. But, you can not, for the love of god, picture a hero that would rape someone, even his mortal enemy. That's all I got, I suck at explaining my thoughts.

That is true. But you don't always play the hero in games. And you cannot always justify your actions. Like in GTA, you are no hero and you really don't have a reason to murder half of the innocent bystanders in the city.

 

[4RM3D]

^ This. It's a question of motive and justification. Killing can *sometimes* be justified (granted, videogames can come up with some pretty flimsy excuses). Rape is never okay because there will never be a reasonable justification for it.

Killing could be justified in certain situation. But how about mindless violence?

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

Ok, I won't defend games like GTA or Carmageddon in which violence is committed just for its own sake. But, for the most game with violent content, there is usually some sort of justification for murder. It's war. They killed your dog. They are bad people, they are your enemies. In some sense you're justified in killing them. But rape... you don't rape your enemies. Rape is an act that is committed because... fuck, I don't even know. Ok, let me put it this way. You can picture a hero killing his enemies for a greater cause. But, you can not, for the love of god, picture a hero that would rape someone, even his mortal enemy. That's all I got, I suck at explaining my thoughts.

"If you die with a clean sword.. I'LL RAPE YOUR FUCKING CORPSE!" - The Hound

^ Game of Thrones.
Plenty reasons to rape.

Okay, offensive side is over with.

But those people you run over in GTA didn't steal your dog. That generic gang did. So why are you killing them?
Besides.. you're a thug in the GTA series.. Not a hero. There's plenty of games where you don't play a hero in.

I think it's because it's the whole pseudo morally right smug assholes who think even the slightest sammich joke means you're a women beater prick whose IQ is around 50. So you get flamed and belittle for calling them out their bullshit on labeling every person who makes the slightest jokes as sexist. Because you know, people are just too easily offended.


For me? I have no problems with themes like rape/racist/etc in my video games. Why? Because they're in books, movies, and tv shows. It's not meant for everyone, and not everyone has to like it. But damn it I am an adult and I want adult themes.

I mean hell Danni from Game Of Thrones was only 13 year olds when the Khal bed her against her will.
Yeah, it's wrong. But it's also a book and that was the norm for that time period.

BUT OH GOD. HOW DARE I DEFEND SUCH A ACT! I MUST BE CONTRIBUTING TO THE "RAPE CULTURE"! ( Because that's totally a thing apparently)

/ flame shield on.

They're rated M games. If you don't like having a adult story. Don't play that game. I am sick and tired of being treated like child when it comes to my video games and I am sick and damn tired of people that can never just not watch it/play it. Just because you're a easily offended person that doesn't mean the rest of us should have to keep our mouths shut.

The problem is literally this.

*Makes a joke about how girls belong in the kitchen*

Then everyone gets riled up and gets their panties in a bunch labeling you as sexist and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Morally righteous, smug attitudes, blah, blah, blah. How dare you say such a thing! You're a horrible monster who is causing women all over the world for getting raped and beaten!

is the general re-action you get from the people on this site.

Example: Look at what happen with Tomb Raider.

Really? That's PERFECTLY NATURAL SITUATION TO BE IN. You're in the woods with basically barbarians. What do you expect? Unicorns and Rainbows? But no. Those smug left wing right morally right have to be so up tight about everything just because people get offended?

I really wish people learned.. that....

Everyone gets offended by something. You don't like it? Don't look at it. Turn around and walk away.

Come on this is what Jesus preached and this what they taught me in second grade.

( I mean unless... someone is getting murdered.. Call the cops.)

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be censored and it shouldn't mean you get to go around belittling people just because they're not a politic correct nut job that MUST PROTECT TEH CHILDREN!

Not everyone is easily offended and we shouldn't have to be censored because you want to play the good guy card.

I can't wait till the day the video games get treated with the same level of books and movies so we can actually have some more adult themes in video games instead of.

LOL, AMERICA FUCK YEAH!

 

[omega 616]

Humans love the violence, we have a pretty sever case of blood lust, we are constantly starting wars, our sports involve a lot of contact (football (both kinds), hockey, MMA, boxing etc), we have loads of violent movies, if you listen to certain genres of metal there is a lot of violent/graphic references etc

Rape isn't in our nature, sure getting laid is but it's not like every man thinks about raping every woman (despite what some extremist feminist thinks), there aren't really any main stream rape movies ... hills have eyes is probably the biggest release with it in, I don't think there are many songs with rape in and there certainly isn't any rape sports.

Plus murder is just an instant off button, rape is just torture that probably lasts a life time.

 

[darlarosa]

Firtly rape and murder are very different things and the sense of violation experienced by victims very different.
They are only equal in that both are horrible things to happen to people. To me rape is a form of torture, and murder is murder. Torture is worse than murder because you make a person live with it.
Secondly the context of both issues is different.
Rape is a tricky subject. My approach is that of violence in presentation however, to have violence for violence sake undermines the violence. Rarely do we see victims of violence in utter fear for long. With murder we rarely blame the vicitim or bemoan the murderers lost opportunity. Rape victims are constantly blamed in almost every society for their assault. If it happens to a man you should have fought it off or maybe your gay. If it happens to a woman then you should have worn something different, or not been alone. There are times we do blame a murder victim depending on the situation, but even that depends (walking alone on a street where a known serial killer has been perusing victims is just not smart, but even then we place ample blame on the killer).

Also consider how it is used. As a writer, I am of the opinion only use something if it advances the story and don't take easy outs. For female characters the worry is rape being used as a cheap/easy way to give them a "tragic back story" or give them "adversity" to conquer instead of viewing it as a traumatic thing it becomes a cliche. There is already a struggle to depict a variety of realistic female characters and this might go sour. Violence in videos games is an easy thing to do, and on some psychological level we do yearn for conflict and death is the biggest of all conflicts. Using rape as a game tactic is just a horribly disturbing thought. I'm wary of a person who plays a game, and openly admits to it, where the core mechanic is rape, and I'm not talking like hentai, but realistic or toss away rape. Doing so does cheapen sexual assault. Violence has been cheapened in video games to a point, and very rarely do games explore violence as possessing legitimate consequence. Any media is a reflection of things developed or interpreted from out society.


Games like books and film. Matter

 

[Windcaler]

Frankly I think any comparison between rape and mass violence is like comparing apples and oranges. Your talking about two different crimes commited for different reasons. That said, I dont think theres any strict double standard in an objective sense but there can be in a subjective sense

 

[LetalisK]

Yes, there is a double standard and it's an extension of the sex vs violence issue in society. Sex has slowly started to become less taboo, but now you take the taboo and twist it down an evil path? Of course it's going to be seen as worse than the evil version of our glorified violence.

 

[McMarbles]

The difference is that nobody's ever RAPED anyone in self-defense.

 

[TehCookie]

War and violence is bad, but it's also something we do normally. Even little kids playfight all the time and sometimes actually fight. I don't remember any kids playing rape. You can even put a positive spin on violence and have it be about a hero fighting an army to save a princess since violence in the sake of justice is okay. It may be violent, but it's not about violence it's the means to an end. What goal would require you to rape someone?

Actually why would you want to be a rapist in your fantasy? I never play games and go "I want to kill tons of people!" Of course there are still games about you playing an evil murder, but there are also games you can be a rapist.

 

[hazabaza1]

War and violence is bad, but it's also something we do normally. Even little kids playfight all the time and sometimes actually fight. I don't remember any kids playing rape.

But you surely have seen a kid kissing another when the other clearly doesn't want to get kissed, yes? I remember it happening quite often in my area when I was younger, and the kisser was having a hell of a time. It's just that kissing is the go-to thing because they don't understand how sex works yet.

Not saying that kids would go around raping one another if given the choice, just pointing out that demonstrations of affection and control in a not completely violent way still occur with the younger people.

 

[Bashfluff]

Violence for its own sake is accepted, and is even seen as fun, in games like Saints Row or the Sims. You can torture or maim in the most brutal ways and it's all part of the "fun". Video games are filled with things that give us an odd sense of pleasure when the real life version would fill us with horror or disgust. That's just how it goes. We all know this.

Rape doesn't deserve a special exception. Fantasy and reality are two different things, and unless there's actual hate behind the violence or rape, I think it's fine. Whatever people wanna do is okay with me.

 

[LetalisK]

The difference is that nobody's ever RAPED anyone in self-defense.

This argument is used time and time again and it's just as bad every single time, particularly in this thread, since the OP didn't even say anything about whether rape is worse than killing, but rather why rape is a less acceptable theme to explore in games in relation to violence, specifically murder. Even if you managed to somehow show that in reality rape is objectively more evil than murder it does not automatically follow that it should also then be a taboo subject to explore in video games.

 

[skywolfblue]

Ok, I won't defend games like GTA or Carmageddon in which violence is committed just for its own sake. But, for the most game with violent content, there is usually some sort of justification for murder. It's war. They killed your dog. They are bad people, they are your enemies. In some sense you're justified in killing them. But rape... you don't rape your enemies. Rape is an act that is committed because... fuck, I don't even know. Ok, let me put it this way. You can picture a hero killing his enemies for a greater cause. But, you can not, for the love of god, picture a hero that would rape someone, even his mortal enemy. That's all I got, I suck at explaining my thoughts.

Excellently stated.

That is true. But you don't always play the hero in games. And you cannot always justify your actions. Like in GTA, you are no hero and you really don't have a reason to murder half of the innocent bystanders in the city.

Mindless Violence isn't a good thing either. It's passable if you've picked off a handful of really annoying characters, or accidentally ran over a few bystanders, but I'm not really proud of people who... lets say: "Keeps all the heads of his female victims on a trophy display in his house in Skyrim".

 

[darlarosa]

We live in a age of someone being offended and having to censor shit so someone won't have their feeling's hurt. Not to mention you shouldn't mention rape because it add's to rape culture (what ever the fuck that it), or as darlarosa put's it, cheapens sexual assault, because rape is the most horrible thing ever and no one should mention it. The mentioning or joking of rape does nothing, except rustling the jimmies, which is always fun for me to watch.

One. Don't you ever dare fucking put words in my mouth.
I never mentioned censorship. The proliferation of rape culture isn't through just depicting rape. Never said that. You understood nothing of what I said. So let me break it down. Rape culture is the combination of factors in our media and social structure that reinforce the idea that the attacker has lost something and the sexual assault and/or rape victim is some how at fault. It is a combination of factors as depicted in the media and in conversation that demonstrate sexual violence, usually against women, is warranted for some reason, and once again that brings it back to it being the victims fault. It includes groups that convince victims not to go to the police, and the system that allows most rapists go free(I forget the statistic), Or that make it ok to drug someone or ply them with booze so that they can be violated.
That is rape culture. When sexual assault and rape are normalized as simple things people need to accept ans their own doing to themselves and as something they(twisted as it is) have a right to do with others.

I believe people should mention it. In fact I believe people should do more and out right discuss it. My point was that most games don't. They use it as a cheap cliche. "This woman was raped, and she worked through her trauma" "thats how we know she's strong". It stops being a real thing and becomes a cliche without impact. Most games aren't well written so I don't expect the subject to be handled well. My point was that until games can approach the subject as more than just a horrible thing to do to a female character, and give it the impact and depth it deserves then utilizing rape becomes cheap
If a game uses rape and/or sexual assault in a cheap way then I'll call them out on their bullshit. Most of the time it's just mentioned offhandedly and never brought up because of lazy writing. Nothing is worse than lazy writing about a serious subject that is worth a lot more than that.

And you wanna know why people get fired up over a "joke" or a discussion. Its because for some people rape is a real threat every time they go out alone. Sometimes every time they come home. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy but it's real fucked up that I can name ten close friends of mine off the top of my head who have been sexually assaulted, raped, or followed by creepy men. That's not counting members of my family. Yeah maybe I'm real fucking crazy.

 

[tilmoph]

Well, I think the why has been largly covered (violence can be morally justified, rape can't unless we're talking about an absolute extinction level scenario and even then it's iffy at best), but I'll add a point; generally speaking, most of the violence in games is either fairly quick when against non-combat npcs (one blow/bullet/spell/etc.) and only takes longer against enemies that can fight back, however pitifully. there's very little suffering demonstrated (either the death is quick or the target is assumed to be durable enough to endure the pain with relative ease, given that the pain doesn't seem to lessen their combat abilities any). You can't really do rape like that. If you tried to show rape as consequence free, you're going to get ripped apart from three sides; the side that thinks having rape as an option is itself horrible, the side that thinks cheapening rape is horrible, and the side that remains convinced you tossed rape in to get notoriety and think half-assed efforts in the name of making controversy are moronic.

Now, on the sub topic of should games include rape as an option for the pc to engage in, assuming we're with talking about an open-world game; Yes and no, as much of a cop-out as that seems. Yes, I think games should be allowed (that is, not censored by any level of government) to include rape however they wish, as it is or ought to be with all forms of expression. Where I get iffy is on the question of whether or not I'd be willing to purchase and play a game with rape as an option. I already play Crusader Kings II, and the Old Gods expansion allows Pagan kings to seize "concubines" from conquered provinces and sire children with them. These kidnapped women can and frequently will hate your character. However, that's all off screen, just stats and traits, no images, and while it's obvious what your king is doing, it never comes out and says it. Also, this mechanic fits the setting; this shit happened in raids, and a game that allows the assassination of children, mass executions of your friends, enemies, and anyone else who has the misfortune of angering you (if your playing your king in such a manner; a kind and merciful ruler is a completely viable option, as is mixing and matching playstyles for different kings throughout the years). So in that sense, sure, as long as it's not graphic and fits the setting and serves a purpose and is optional, I'd play.

However, rape in a first person game, like an rpg or a shooter, I can't say I'd be comfortable. Maybe if it happened offscreen, and their was some kind of justification...naw, just couldn't do it.