Rape vs Violence: A Double Standard

[Eddie the head]

I mean, if someone is murdered, no one says "Oh they must have been asking for it" or "well if they hadn't been wearing THAT, it wouldn't have happened!" or any other of that bullshit. At most they might say "If only they hadn't been out at night, this tragedy would have been avoided!" or "Oh god why did he egg him on this is so horrible!"

Umm yes they do.


Also don't wear blue into bloods territory.

Look whatever you are saying afterwords might be completely valid, but people blame the victim all the time. Not just for rape.

 

[AlbertoDeSanta]

The only way Rape would ever be justifiable in a video game is if you are playing as a Villain; not just some anti-hero fuck who kills civilians daily but saves the world when he needs to. No, you'd need to play as the most vile villain, conquering vast cities and other such things for whatever gains you want. Rape? You could possibly, but who, in all honesty, would go and do that? Even in such a game where it's (Somewhat) justifiable to rape people, would you do it? I doubt many of us would, even if it gave some insane bonus.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

Because Violence is easy as fuck to implement and justify while rape... isn't. Just from a point of mechanics, violence is easy to do as all you do is give the player a weapon, point them at a bad guy and tell them to shoot them - it's not personal, it's quick and it's a great form of conflict to start off or drive your story. You can make killing and murder personal as well, by giving the scene emotional investment with either the way it's set or the character the protagonist is killing.

Rape, on the other hand... just how the hell do you implement rape into a video game mechanically? Rape is a personal attack on someone so you can't make it impersonal; it can't be quick and done in succession to drive the story otherwise it just cheapens it and brings up the question of 'why did you bother putting it in anyway?' and you can't have a gameplay segment where your protagonist rapes someone, because then there's no redeemable traits with the character and the audience stops rooting for them to win (which, you know, is kinda important for the player). You just can't implement rape mechanically into a game without coming off as tasteless, crude or stupid.

It is, however, quite possible to implement rape as a story element - while it's atypically played for drama, it's entirely possible to play it realistically in the game, explore the effects rape has on victims and the like. In the realms of story telling, Rape is just another theme to explore - probably a little more delicately, but not impossible. Story wise, however, it's not equivalent to wanton violence (which is a mechanical aspect of gaming) - wanton violence in a story tends to scream 'we didn't care enough about our game', 'our characters are psychotic' or 'This world is happy and fun and shouldn't be taken seriously because life is cheap', while Rape brings about 'Tragedy', 'Shit just got serious' and 'Brutal, Violent Revenge against whomever Raped X'. Violence's counterpart to rape in story would be something like domestic abuse or the character getting brutally beaten by the villain (similar themes to one another, just one is a brutal sex crime while the other is a brutal violence crime).

In short: Violence works better as a mechanic than rape does but can still be played seriously in-story; Rape doesn't work as well mechanically without the game coming across as crude, immature and uncaring, but can be pulled off effectively in story telling. Lastly, Wanton Violence doesn't equate to Rape due to the thematic differences - Wanton violence works to show how little people care for the world or how psychotic characters are while Rape tends to bring about Tragedy, seriousness and a starting point for 'Roaring Rampages of Revenge'.

Rape is something that can be explored in games, but it's something that can only work when played as a serious theme rather than a wacky gameplay mechanic.

snip

...uhh... huh.

You know, just going to put this out there... have you maybe thought that it's not people going 'rawr censorship, the Cult of the American Left Wing demands that rape is never showed in video games' and more people just wanting serious depictions of rape in games? While there haven't been any games that focus on rape and the consequences thereof as a major theme, several games (Far Cry 3, Fallout: New Vegas) approach rape fairly seriously, coming under no form of censorship?

And have you maybe thought that the reason people are a little nervous about depicting rape in a video game as a major theme is because there's already a massive market of 'Rapeplay' games, and as such there's that stigma of having rape as a major theme as historically it's not something that's been approached with much tact?

...or are you just going to go 'Lol America!' again?

First *Claps* Respect for you good sir for not belittling me on how people act on this site in terms of sexist topic.

Well yup. I am from America and I haaaaaaate the double standards and the pseudo-moral act play here.

I am not asking for rape mechanics. Oh god no. o.o.
But to have scenes suggesting it, or telling the story of it. I don't have a problem with it.

Oh, we're fine with nukes and torture.
But feeling a girl up? NO WAY MAN. NO WAY!

Yeah, logical sense.

I did not know about the "Rapeplay" game market and I am quite disturbed by it. o.e I just googled it and... uuuuuugh. Really?

But oh come on! Stigma is the reason you don't want to touch the material?
I think it's about time the gaming industry started to stand up for itself and label is as a serious form of entertainment in the story telling side. Trying to defy the rumors and lies surrounding it and get on the same level as books. I am all for more-in-depth-stories. Not these 14 year boys power house fantasy. OH LOOK BAD GUY. GO BEAT HIM UP. (Even Dragon Age was like this... ) After playing the Witcher I was pretty impressed with the adult themed material although some of it was a little silly. The Sex cards from the first game.

But the Witcher is a good example is why we can't have nice things.


A lot of people say that the Witcher casual sex is immature and blah, blah.

Um, WHAT?! Did anyone bother to read the books? Geralt is suppose to be some extremely handsome man who gets laid pretty much in every tavern he walks into. I bet if people read the book they wouldn't have said that. But just because it's in a video game it's consider immature.

Or the guy from the first game who cussed literally every word. (I'm not even making this one up. It was *literally every word*) In the books he's the same way. Once again I bet if people read the books they wouldn't have bat an eye.

The problem is any time something adult/realistic comes up. Their general response is "NOOO. IT'S IMMATURE AND TERRIBLE!"

Another and my last example is Act 1 from the Witcher 2.
Passing by two humans and one says "I couldn't sleep last night. My neighbor was beating his wife"
Someone made a topic about this and he called it immature.

Well.
1. Those were the times yo. That was pretty much the normal thing to do.
2. ... It's how people generally treat women in that universe.

I honestly don't think most people get really in the concept of.
HEY IT'S A VIDEO GAME. THEY DON'T NEED TO FOLLOW OUR LAWS AND OUR RULES ON LIFE!

Any concept that's adult themed or any sexist/racist/etc themes is generally looked down upon in the gaming community which I think is wrong. We should taking the opposite approach and show people the video games aren't just for little kids and xbox's aren't baby sitters. They're a serious form of story telling and we should be pushing this instead of doing the opposite thing and shunning it out. We'll never succeed getting rid of the stigma and things alike if we just sit around doing nothing. Then ***** about when a story writer wants to put in these themes.

I am for one glad for Project Red's Witcher series. It shows that gaming can be very serious about it's story and have dark themes and you know what? That's okay. IT'S OKAY. People lay down your arms. IT'S ALL OKAY.

But the real problem I see holding us back on taking this leap in gaming is bad parenting. I assume you're not in the states? Well here parents buy rated M games for their 6 year olds( I am sure this is a problem all around the world) and they don't read about the game and what's it about. Granted some rated M games really should be T. ( I am looking at you Halo and CoD) because compared to some of the gamers. (Gears of War and the Witcher) they're just not on the same level of maturity.


Also whenever America decides stops blaming every thing else but themselves and start blaming humans instead of toys and stories. I am sure we will get over this hump. A man killed another a man? OH GOD. IT WAS BECAUSE HE PLAYED COUNTER STRIKE!

You know instead of America's obsession with killers and how media glorifies them on their magazines and news.


Erm.. maybe he was just a human being who had the urge to kill? Why does it constantly need to have any other reason?
Why does he have to mentally sick? Why aren't our military consider to be mentally sick for killing?
OH BUT THEY'RE DEFENDING OUR COUNTRY! Yeah, lousy excuse.

Humans have been killing other humans since the dawn of time. It's a natural part of our lives. (Wither you want to play the good guy card and deny this. I rather accept it and do something about it)

Hell I am descended from Germanic tribes. Even I know in my DNA lays an aggressive beast. Lol, Fuck the entire male side of my family are generally more aggressive than the average person.

(But this is a discussion for another topic.)

 

[LetalisK]

Had a nice long response typed out, but I get the feeling it'd do no good, so I'll keep it short.

To try to explain my thoughts on this argument, I have an example to offer. Bear with me.

Okay, so you have a game like BioShock, where there was some exploration of race in a dystopian society. This is a legitimate form of racism in a fictional setting because it's an EXPLORATION of the topic (in some form) while at the same time being integral to the storyline. This is generally considered acceptable and okay.

Now, imagine a game where you play your average hero, but in the South in the Jim Crow era. Your function in this game is simple, take down the foreign spies, any way you can. THAT is the storyline and THAT is what you're there for. But there are side adventures you can do that are in the theme of the time, and those side adventures are all about black people. You can beat blacks, shoot blacks, torture blacks, don white robes and burn crosses on their lawns, and every night you can choose one to lynch. You know, just for funsies.

Is this STILL an acceptable portrayal of racism in a game or storyline? Does it add anything to the storyline? Enhance your in-game experience? Would the people upset about this game just be big baby whiners with their panties in a wad?

The thing that is different between rape and murder, is murder--as portrayed in practically every video game ever--is you against someone who is equally well armed and equally able to fight back. In the rare instances this is not the case--Grand Theft Auto, for example--the people you're indiscriminately killing are little more than mannequins filled with blood sacks. There is no connection to these people, no reality. A friend of mine once described the pedestrians in GTA as "robbable parking meters that bleed."

So, for violence you have "fighting the dude trying to kill me" and "killing the slab-o-meat I have zero connection to or emotional investment in." And, oh yeah, non-human monsters.

But rape is a different story. Rape is the female equivalent (and remember, I said bear with me here) of the above example where you're lynching black men. You are taking an individual with zero power, holding them down, and proceeding to MUTILATE and TORTURE them. For funsies. (And for those who don't know how female parts work, yes, mutilation happens in rape; damage is done.) This is NOT an equal exchange of power. And, in order to make the fantasy work, you can't be fucking a faceless mannequin, she has to be real to you. Which means you have to IMMERSE yourself in the mind set of a man who would hand pick a helpless victim, overpower them, and then proceed to torture and shatter them.

If that is what you think people are talking about when they say rape should be a theme available for exploration in any entertainment medium, let alone gaming, then I fear you've done more than just miss the point and I'd rather not know why you've created these false arguments that no one has even suggested. It's a very elegant strawman you've erected, take care of it.

 

[Agent_Dark]

I mean, if someone is murdered, no one says "Oh they must have been asking for it" or "well if they hadn't been wearing THAT, it wouldn't have happened!" or any other of that bullshit. At most they might say "If only they hadn't been out at night, this tragedy would have been avoided!" or "Oh god why did he egg him on this is so horrible!"

Umm yes they do.


Also don't wear blue into bloods territory.

Look whatever you are saying afterwords might be completely valid, but people blame the victim all the time. Not just for rape.

Oh, victim shaming certainly happens everywhere. The difference though is that a murder is a murder and my expectation, based on my observation of how society deals with murder, is that the murderer is going to be convicted by society at large. It's one thing to say "the black/latino victim was at fault for wearing a hoodie" but entirely another to say "the murderer shouldn't face the full extent of the law because the black/latino was wearing a hoodie".

The same, I don't feel, is true for a sexual assault. The issue of consent will get easily muddied (eg "she was a slut, so how could he be expected she would say no") and the perpetrators routinely face far far lesser penalties because of it. And this is not even bringing up the huge problem with unreported sexual assault crimes due to victims being pressured by society to say quiet about it. Dead bodies are a thing that shock society into action. Sexual Assaults are probably just as likely to be swept under the rug as reported to society.

 

[somonels]

Uhh, violence is so old and universal that it exist in most stories and is central to many creation myths. That's how long we've been dealing with it. Rape was still at least partly legal in the US half a decade ago.

We still kill each other and justify it with ease, self-defense, pre-emption out of fear, retribution. Heck, we glorify and revel in the idea of it by the media. Perhaps we'll treat rape like that in a thousand years.

But yes, bias exists. It's a gender one.

 

[spartandude]

Heres my opinion, the game industry really does not handle sex in a mature light over all. if lets say we had a game with a mature story and there was a case of rape in it (and it wasnt handled tastelessly) i would'nt be crying foul what so ever, however when you make a rape joke on stage at E3 thats an entirely different matter.

in terms of violence there is a double standard.... sort of. most games are somewhat violent (or atleast feature fighting) now Men tend be featured as the main characters and as such the ones who expereince violence, now that double standard would go away if we had more female protagonists.
however (and do actually watch Anita Sarkeesian's videos about this) when women are in video games they tend to be (not always and we seem to be getting better in this regard) to be shown as less capable of dealing with violence than the men and i think thats where the double standard lies. now i dont go in thinking that a damsel in distress scenario is inherently sexist but the fact its almost exclusively women is

 

[Yopaz]

The difference is that nobody's ever RAPED anyone in self-defense.

Oh, this made me chuckle.

OT: Honestly, murder and violence shouldn't be considered worse than sex, but for some reason they are more accepted in media.

However when it comes to the difference in games violence is usually a means to accomplish something. Mindless violence is just that. It's not something you put your mind into. Rape on the other hand would be a deliberate thing no matter what. There's violence, there's intimidation and there's forced sexual intercourse. It's worse because it's still violence, but there's more than just violence.

Another difference between games and movies here is that you actually take action in games. You can see horrible things in movies. In games you have to do it. Would you like to be a part of the scene in Deliverance?

 

[zefichan]

With the fuss about rape

People like you are the reason why it's not "fuss", why it's needed, and why it doesn't matter that it's "just" games. Your attitude right there says everything.

The day whiny people like you realize that rape is actually a big deal, and that making fun of the victims and pretending it's not a big deal is BAD, that day we can stop "fussing" about rape.

That day is, as you prove, very far off.

 

[LetalisK]

People have already touched on it, but it's really all about the sentiment behind the action and it's execution.

Some of the "murder" quoted isn't done with or executed with murderous intent. Look at Carmageddon - it's funny, it's comical - you don't set out to slice open someone or take pleasure in taking someone's life, it plays in a comical way and has the whole tone set as OTT and silly.

The more recent GTA's may have a more serious overtone, but again there's no sinister connection with what murder involves, and even at it's most serious it's bubble-gum-popcorn OTT action-kills, which are a million miles away from murder.

Rape's a far tricky subject to make either comical, light-hearted, or bubble-gum-popcorn like. Society isn't as desensitized to it as "murder", but it's also harder to detach from the original sentiment. When murder has been played out with murderous intent (Manhunt) it's been shunned.

Essentially you can turn "murder" (an intent to gain joy an satisfaction from killing someone) into "killing" (a survival instinct that has done as much good as it has harm) a lot easier than you can turn rape into anything half as palatable.

Whether that's right is a whole other matter, but it is how we're wired.

While I mimic many of your sentiments here, the bolded statement and statements like it continue to drive me mad. Who said rape had to be turned into something palatable if it's to be used in a game? I would think it would be used in a game because it's unpalatable. People keep drawing these comparisons between the protagonist going on a wanton killing spree and rape as if the protagonist going on a raping spree has ever been suggested as a reasonable way of addressing this issue.

 

[Astoria]

I think it's because rape is seen as the worst thing you can do to someone. It's sorta like with swearing, they'll throw in a million f bombs but I'm yet to hear the word **** in anything (I am some what sheltered though). Murder also usually makes sense in the context of a game, you're in a war, it's kill or be killed, you're a asshole, but how would you even fit rape into a game? Very few characters, if any, would make sense with rapist as one of their traits.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

As others have somewhat pointed out, there are two kinds of violence. Justified violence, where you're (for example) shooting people who are shooting at you, or upholding the law. There is also mindless violence, being without a good reason. I'm perfectly fine with rape being committed by a character who doesn't need a reason to commit horrendous acts of violence, but a character who is otherwise compelled to commit violent acts for survival raping someone would be out of character unless justified within the game. But I've never seen the latter. Whenever rape is in a game it tends to be that the perpetrator is an unscrupulous person who doesn't need justification except whatever they want.

I suppose my basic point is that rape's fine as long as it's consistent with the character. And honestly, if there were a female equivalent of the extra points or special animations you get frequently in games for shooting enemies in the dick, that'd be decried as sexual assault by the people who get up in arms about rape being in a game.

Yes, it's demeaning and it doesn't serve a purpose as far as survival is concerned like killing does. But have you ever played a game where you could rape the enemy in self-defence, as an otherwise scrupulous character? I certainly haven't.

 

[Hagi]

Firtly rape and murder are very different things and the sense of violation experienced by victims very different.
They are only equal in that both are horrible things to happen to people. To me rape is a form of torture, and murder is murder. Torture is worse than murder because you make a person live with it.

If you truly believe that's the case,

that living with having been raped or having been tortured is worse than having been murdered isn't the solution very, very simple?

Just kill everyone who's been raped or tortured? They don't have to live with it anymore, they'll be dead of course but apparently that's better than living with it so still an improvement, assuming of course that having been tortured is indeed worse than having been murdered.

One simple injection and it's all over. No more living with it.

 

[LetalisK]

While I mimic many of your sentiments here, the bolded statement and statements like it continue to drive me mad. Who said rape had to be turned into something palatable if it's to be used in a game? I would think it would be used in a game because it's unpalatable. People keep drawing these comparisons between the protagonist going on a wanton killing spree and rape as if the protagonist going on a raping spree has ever been suggested as a reasonable way of addressing this issue.

To be fair mate I agree, but we need to accept that unpalatable things generally get rejected and shunned by society. For it to work in any art form it has to be done, very, very carefully, else the average Joe will just reject it outright, and it becomes "rape is bad" as opposed to "that was a very powerful scene/part of a game"

The average joe will try to reject it even if it's done well because it makes us uncomfortable, as it should. And while it should be done carefully too often do I see that sentiment seep over into fear of doing it or afraid that it won't be done without mistakes. We can't be afraid of facing it. At this point a simple "rape is bad" would be a step up from the current paradigm of apologists and ostriches.

 

[LetalisK]

The average joe will try to reject it even if it's done well because it makes us uncomfortable, as it should. And while it should be done carefully too often do I see that sentiment seep over into fear of doing it. We can't be afraid of facing it. At this point a simple "rape is bad" would be a step up from the current paradigm of apologists and ostriches.

Again I agree, but I don't trust most companies to do it right - I think most will do it purely for shock and sales.

If they fuck it up then we should rightfully shame them for it. We just need to make sure the message gets across that it's because they fucked it up, not because they tried it. That's the tricky part.

 

[Demonjazz]

War and violence is bad, but it's also something we do normally. Even little kids playfight all the time and sometimes actually fight. I don't remember any kids playing rape. You can even put a positive spin on violence and have it be about a hero fighting an army to save a princess since violence in the sake of justice is okay. It may be violent, but it's not about violence it's the means to an end. What goal would require you to rape someone?

Actually why would you want to be a rapist in your fantasy? I never play games and go "I want to kill tons of people!" Of course there are still games about you playing an evil murder, but there are also games you can be a rapist.

... I totally never play games were I say "I want to kill tons of people"*Hides all the dead people from Skyrim, that I put in humorous poses*
And there are goals that may require you to rape some one like... You must impregnate the queen of Alserdansia or else the world will fall in two days... You must impregnate somebody so that Batman is born in the future, but you have to do to somebody who is married and a very devoted wife... Your God and must rape the world to make it exist... Well none of these are good scenarios but still scenarios

 

[Chris Tian]

snip

I completely agree with you. Its just a social double standart that rape is perceived as worse than murder or other severe violance. I personally think its connected to sex being a "bad" or tabu thing, and rape is violance connected to sex so its perceived as "double" bad.

I subconsciously apply the same double standart, I am currently playing an Assassin in Skyrim and am murdering my way through the landscape for money. But I would never play a character who rapes for money, or any other reason for that matter.

Firtly rape and murder are very different things and the sense of violation experienced by victims very different.
They are only equal in that both are horrible things to happen to people. To me rape is a form of torture, and murder is murder. Torture is worse than murder because you make a person live with it.

This is complete and utter nonsense, being alive is always superior to being dead, because only if you are alive there is a chance of getting better, regardless of how slim that chance may be.

I am closely related to a rapevictim and we, her close family and friends, and her are very very happy that she is still alive.

 

[WaltherFeng]

Firtly rape and murder are very different things and the sense of violation experienced by victims very different.
They are only equal in that both are horrible things to happen to people. To me rape is a form of torture, and murder is murder. Torture is worse than murder because you make a person live with it.

Utter nonsense. Period.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5972-Rape-vs-Murder

I think Jim Sterling did pretty well at explaining the issue and I agree with him. Take a look at this video, and see what you think.

 

[Eddie the head]

Oh, victim shaming certainly happens everywhere. The difference though is that a murder is a murder and my expectation, based on my observation of how society deals with murder, is that the murderer is going to be convicted by society at large. It's one thing to say "the black/latino victim was at fault for wearing a hoodie" but entirely another to say "the murderer shouldn't face the full extent of the law because the black/latino was wearing a hoodie".

Right but again they do. Considering that was the argument at hand when that clip was taken. Should the guy that shot him go to jail? This was the argument at had and that was the response. And if I recall correctly the guy avoid prosecution for a while. Basically what I am saying is the second one is what they where saying.

Hell that's one of the contributing factors in how Joe Horn got off. Public sympathy lied with him (at least in Texas) because those two people shouldn't have been burgling his neighbor's home. But he still got away with killing two people. I mean he killed two criminals and they are criminals right?

Look blaming the victim sucks in any regard. It's not exclusive to rape and rape is not the only place where people get away with doing it.

Edit. Can we just agree both are bad and shouldn't happen?