Rape vs Violence: A Double Standard

[King Aragorn]

Admittedly, i'v only skimmed over the first page, but i'll say this: what about the gameplay perspective? there is justification for let's say..why I killed that assassination target in Assassin's Creed, but what about that helpless guard over there who I killed for fun? i'm not necessarily condemning violence in video games, but there is kind of a double standard. Rape can be equally explored in video games. Either it be a powerful moment for the player character, a villain is made more villainous, so on and so forth. Just like there are a few dozen million rape scenes in movies.

 

[Ultrajoe]

"logical fallacy" Sure you know what that means? Because it does not mean "You dont agree with me and thus your arguments are illogical".

I take this discussion seriously, and I don't accuse people of a fallacy as some sort of cheap swipe. The basis of your refutation was that this study was comparable to juxtaposing shopping lists of two different careers. There is no logical progression from one example to another, I even gave an example of a more correctly comparable 'shopping list' analogy.

As such, I called it a logical fallacy. If your intention was to demonstrate that the study is as equally silly as your given metaphor, then I'm sorry, but as I took it you were comparing an apple to my orange.

 

[Chris Tian]

"logical fallacy" Sure you know what that means? Because it does not mean "You dont agree with me and thus your arguments are illogical".

I take this discussion seriously, and I don't accuse people of a fallacy as some sort of cheap swipe. The basis of your refutation was that this study was comparable to juxtaposing shopping lists of two different careers. There is no logical progression from one example to another, I even gave an example of a more correctly comparable 'shopping list' analogy.

As such, I called it a logical fallacy. If your intention was to demonstrate that the study is as equally silly as your given metaphor, then I'm sorry, but as I took it you were comparing an apple to my orange.

My point is that the study and my hypothetical shopping list have both equally much scientific value regarding the comparison between the two groups respectively. Saying that is logical fallacy felt like a cheap swipe since its true, both have exactly zero scientific value in that regard.

You took your own assumptions as to what exactly the study implies about our culture and used it to prove your point. All the study proves is that you can cherry pick certain quotes and people can not tell from whom they are. You may take from that what you will, but thats your interpretation not scientific proof of your point. Thats why I initially said its hard to argue with a study thats scientifically worthless.

 

[Smeatza]

https://www.d.umn.edu/~bmork/2306/readings/scullyandmarollis.htm

Have a gander at this, the first two paragraphs are particularly important regarding the second part of your post I have quoted.

For anyone who can't be bothered to click the link, here's the relevant excerpt (although all of it is relevant)

"Rape is viewed as an individualistic, idiosyncratic symptom of a disordered personality. That is, rape is assumed to be a psychopathologic problem and individual rapists are assumed to be "sick." However, advocates of this model have been unable to isolate a typical or even predictable pattern of symptoms that are causally linked to rape. Additionally, research has demonstrated that fewer than 5 percent of rapists were psychotic at the time of their rape (Abel et al., 1980).

We view rape as behavior learned socially through interaction with others; convicted rapists have learned the attitudes and actions consistent with sexual aggression against women. Learning also includes the acquisition of culturally derived vocabularies of motive, which can be used to diminish responsibility and to negotiate a non-deviant identity."
- CONVICTED RAPIST'S VOCABULARY OF MOTIVE: EXCUSES AND JUSTIFICATIONS, Diana Scully and Joseph Marolla

Interesting paper. I could have done with more detail.
You might find this interesting.
http://www.courseweb.uottawa.ca/PSY3171/personalwp/p6The%20Relationship%20between%20Psychopathy%20and%20Deviant.pdf
It supports what you posted but still acknowledges that rape can come from sexual deviancy.
Rapists should still be given psychotherapy. Mental illness or no, there are issues there.

If sexual education was adequate teaching kids about consent would be a part of it.
The problem that this presents is that the majority of rapists come from working class backgrounds, and don't have a high school education in the first place. So the only place left to turn is the parents, and if that's a dud.......

 

[Gorrath]

I think it's less about the content and more about the player. It's true in a sense virtual mindless violence and virtual rape technically hurt no one. (except for traumatized rape victims soo no I guess that isn't even true anyways) It's more about the catharsis release from the players. If your stressed out having a bad day there are people you want to hurt. People you feel deserved to be hurt. You can't do it though society doesn't allow it for a host of good reasons. So you burn off that aggression harmlessly by killing virtual proxies.

The problem is no one deserves to be raped. It's an entirely one sided attack. The only catharsis is for people who are predators. People who want to hurt a victim. Who want to destroy some one, own someone, take away their person hood an use them as a tool for their amusement. While no one suffers when done virtually it comes from a far darker and far less common desire then pent up aggression and frustration. Why is it not good enough to beat them to kill them why must you do that and then violate them. It's all about power over someone else. No other reason. None. Facilitating fantasies like that is not something that should be encouraged. I'd never ban the subject entirely. Art needs to be free and there are ways of treating even the worst material and situations with respect but it has to be done carefully, tactfully, and right.

It's not like violence has free reign anyways. If some made a game KKK manhunter where you shoot fleeing unarmed black people their would be a huge outcry and rightly so. This is the line rape always crosses. Video game violence even mindless violence comes from a desire to release feelings of victimization and helplessness. In GTA when your going on a spree it's generally from a "no world you put your hands up" mentality. It's a feeling of regaining power. Rape and my above example are about making someone a victim. It's about taking someone else's power. That's not something we should encourage.

I want to engage you on this post because you seem to be advocating the position that, if someone finds something offensive enough, censorship is okay. I'm not sure because I don't know what you mean by 'outcry'. If someone wants to make the KKK game you suggested, then in my view they should be allowed to do this. Now if you mean we should call it out for what it is, a racist bunch of nonsense that we personally find offensive, I agree. If by outcry you mean we should attempt to censor the individual who made the game, I totally disagree.

I have no problem if someone makes a game dealing with any situation, scenario or theme; it is their right to do so, and while I'll not condone it by buying it, neither would I condemn anyone who wants to make or buy such things. You claim that art needs to be free, only to continue by saying that it has to fit some mold of tact or care. Who gets to be the arbiter of what is tactful or careful? Does GTA treat murder with tact and care? Of course you've already said what others have, that murder and rape are different things, but there are plenty of people that would just as quickly claim that the 'tactless', 'careless' way with which murder in GTA is treated is deserving of censorship or moral outcry. Who draws the line between what is too dark? Which subjects can be treated with tactless, graceless abandon and which must have the 'appropriate' somber tones?

I say we let our wallets decide. Those who want to play rape games can play rape games, those who want violent games can play those, those who want Viva Pinata 3 can play that (I know I do). And let none of us or even most of us decide who has to treat what fantasy in what way.

 

[4RM3D]

Although, I have heard of one film by Paul Verhoeven, many years ago, where a homophobe is actually raped by a group of gay men, and then becomes gay himself. I forgot which film though.

I wouldn't know about that, but Paul Verhoeven's Flesh+Blood [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089153/] has a rape scene.

Some of the "murder" quoted isn't done with or executed with murderous intent. Look at Carmageddon - it's funny, it's comical - you don't set out to slice open someone or take pleasure in taking someone's life, it plays in a comical way and has the whole tone set as OTT and silly.

Society is already disconnected from reality when they can play murder games without any problems. But yeah, when games portray it as something easy and distant, the act of killing doesn't even register anymore. But fortunately there are games like Spec Ops: The Line that break the normal perception of gamers and take a serious look at killing.

People like you are the reason why it's not "fuss", why it's needed, and why it doesn't matter that it's "just" games. Your attitude right there says everything.

The day whiny people like you realize that rape is actually a big deal, and that making fun of the victims and pretending it's not a big deal is BAD, that day we can stop "fussing" about rape.

Rape is bad. That is also something I have said in the OP. But war is even worse (on a global scale) and people are making fun of that too. Anyhow, there is a difference talking about rape in reality and talking about a scenario involving rape in games.

Also people are watching movies like the SAW movies, where there are numerous torture scenes and mutilation. People pay money to see stuff like that. And then there is stuff like The Human Centipede [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1467304/].

 

[Mark Rhodes]

It is a simple matter to why rape is worse. Rape always has a victim, it has to by definition. Violence does not. Sure, someone has to get hurt, but killing someone in a game because that person killed your game family or whatever is different than raping someone.

 

[Gorrath]

It is a simple matter to why rape is worse. Rape always has a victim, it has to by definition. Violence does not. Sure, someone has to get hurt, but killing someone in a game because that person killed your game family or whatever is different than raping someone.

Even if we all agree that rape is worse though, what does that understanding mean about censorship? Murder is worse than simply punching people, but we don't use that as a precursor to censor murder from games. There are also things some might consider worse than rape (torturous mutilation) which already appear in some games. What is worse or not is subjective, but whether we accept censorship or not is something else entirely.

 

[Chris Tian]

Interesting paper. I could have done with more detail.
You might find this interesting.
http://www.courseweb.uottawa.ca/PSY3171/personalwp/p6The%20Relationship%20between%20Psychopathy%20and%20Deviant.pdf
It supports what you posted but still acknowledges that rape can come from sexual deviancy.
Rapists should still be given psychotherapy. Mental illness or no, there are issues there.

I dont think a rapist needs more psychotherapie than say a bankrobber, both took something they wanted with voilance, thats pretty close regarding the mindset. Of course the rapist commited a more cruel crime, but some serial killer commited very cruel crimes too and do not get psychotherapy.

Psychotherapy is only really useful if you want to reintroduce someone into society, I for one dont think thats a good idea if that someone basically tortured a helpless human being to get what they wanted from them.

The problem that this presents is that the majority of rapists come from working class backgrounds, and don't have a high school education in the first place. So the only place left to turn is the parents, and if that's a dud.......

Could you back this up by some statistics? I would be very interested if there is actually a correlation between education and rape, or is that more of a personal assumption?

 

[KungFuJazzHands]

Rape isn't in our nature, sure getting laid is but it's not like every man thinks about raping every woman (despite what some extremist feminist thinks)..

Frankly I think any comparison between rape and mass violence is like comparing apples and oranges. Your talking about two different crimes commited for different reasons. That said, I dont think theres any strict double standard in an objective sense but there can be in a subjective sense

Rape is just as much a part of our nature as violence is. In fact, rape at its core is about dominance and intimidation, and the act of rape itself is ultimately an act of violence. Serial rapists and sexual sadists do it for power-control (usually as a replacement for sexual activity they can't achieve under normalized conditions), and armies do it en masse for the same reason, just under different conditions.

Sex and violence are inextricably linked in our genetics and in our cultures.

...there aren't really any main stream rape movies ... hills have eyes is probably the biggest release with it in, I don't think there are many songs with rape in and there certainly isn't any rape sports.

Mainstream entertainment? Obviously not, but you don't have to dig very far to find examples of other media that concentrate heavily on rape. Gonzo porn, "rape rock", mondo cinema films, Japanese hentai, etc. It's out there, but it's not in the public eye because rape is not a socially acceptable topic like straight violence is.

 

[Gorrath]

I want to engage you on this post because you seem to be advocating the position that, if someone finds something offensive enough, censorship is okay. I'm not sure because I don't know what you mean by 'outcry'. If someone wants to make the KKK game you suggested, then in my view they should be allowed to do this. Now if you mean we should call it out for what it is, a racist bunch of nonsense that we personally find offensive, I agree. If by outcry you mean we should attempt to censor the individual who made them game, I totally disagree.

I have no problem if someone makes a game dealing with any situation, scenario or theme; it is their right to do so, and while I'll not condone it by buying it, neither would I condemn anyone who wants to make or buy such things. Your claim that art needs to be free, only to continue by saying that it has to fit some mold of tact or care. Who gets to be the arbiter of what is tactful or careful? Does GTA treat murder with tact and care? Of course you've already said what others have, that murder and rape are different things, but there are plenty of people that would just as quickly claim that the 'tactless', 'careless' way with which murder in GTA is treated is deserving of censorship or moral outcry. Who draws the line between what is too dark? Which subjects can be treated with tactless, graceless abandon and which must have the 'appropriate' somber tones.

I say we let our wallets decide. Those who want to play rape games can play rape games, those who want violent games can play those, those who want Viva Pinata 3 can play that (I know I do). And let none of us or even most of us decide who has to treat what fantasy in what way.

I don't think it should be censored I just don't think it should be encouraged or treated as equivalent. Sorry I thought I made that point clear when I said "I'd never ban the subject entirely. Art needs to be free and there are ways of treating even the worst material and situations with respect but it has to be done carefully, tactfully, and right." However, I probably used too many contingents to really make that point. People should feel free to make anything but as consumers we have the right to be outraged at it and not buy it and even inform publishers that we will not support it. Protest it, boycott it I'll stand by all those things. That's not censorship that's expressing your voice in opposition. I'd NEVER say the government should come in and outright ban it though or that someone should worry about legal repercussions. Even negative things need to exist to some degree if only so we can be reminded why they are so bad and keep the discussion going. We shouldn't silence one side of a debate by we shouldn't feel so squeamish that we end up tacitly supporting something we believe is wrong either.

Well, that line about never banning it but expecting that it be treated with a certain tact or carelessness is what confused me. It seemed like you might have been advocating a set of standards about what an okay or not okay portrayal of rape would be. That's why I wondered who would be the arbiter of what was and was not tactful or careful.

If people want to protest and boycott, let them, and depending on the work itself, I may even join in. By and large though, I treat fiction with a scale of "I don't care" to "I like this". It is not up to me to decide what gets people off, nor would I step in and decide that someone's fantasy was "too dark" or "shouldn't be encouraged". That "shouldn't be encouraged" stuff is exactly the kind of line groups like One Million Moms uses. Even if someone made a game that was specifically designed to let people with a rape fetish get off, I would never protest or boycott it and I don't think anyone else should either. I think if it's not your bag, just don't buy it. BY protesting or boycotting (boycotting being more than just not buying it) you might succeed in having the publisher or creator never make a game like it again. You might view that as a good thing, but I would not, exactly in the same way I have no interest in Manhunt but if One Million Moms managed to protest it and any game like it into non-existence, I would not be happy about that.

 

[chadachada123]

Ok, I won't defend games like GTA or Carmageddon in which violence is committed just for its own sake. But, for the most game with violent content, there is usually some sort of justification for murder. It's war. They killed your dog. They are bad people, they are your enemies. In some sense you're justified in killing them. But rape... you don't rape your enemies. Rape is an act that is committed because... fuck, I don't even know. Ok, let me put it this way. You can picture a hero killing his enemies for a greater cause. But, you can not, for the love of god, picture a hero that would rape someone, even his mortal enemy. That's all I got, I suck at explaining my thoughts.

What separates torture from rape?

Both involve some form of torture against a helpless individual, both can be physically damaging, both generally ARE mentally damaging,

But only the former is A-okay from a gaming standpoint; that using physical or mental torture against an enemy is fine (or at least justifiable) if it's for the greater good, but using physical/mental *sexual* torture against a (female) enemy is, currently not ever acceptable.

Hell, even being a victim of torture is fine in a gaming narrative, but even the THREAT of ANY form of sexual assault leads to overblown hysteria by the gaming press (See: Tomb Raider 2013).

(As a sidenote, I could easily see a male enemy having his dick being cut off without a peep from the gaming press, with the same not being true for female enemies, but that's a different double-standard entirely). In Far Cry 3, for example,

Spoiler

One of your best friends is raped by his kidnapper, and no one says a word, other than a few people like me pointing out the ludicrous double-standard in not even allowing female rape victims to BE in video games without huge hissy-fits while male ones go unnoticed.

 

[TehCookie]

War and violence is bad, but it's also something we do normally. Even little kids playfight all the time and sometimes actually fight. I don't remember any kids playing rape. You can even put a positive spin on violence and have it be about a hero fighting an army to save a princess since violence in the sake of justice is okay. It may be violent, but it's not about violence it's the means to an end. What goal would require you to rape someone?

Actually why would you want to be a rapist in your fantasy? I never play games and go "I want to kill tons of people!" Of course there are still games about you playing an evil murder, but there are also games you can be a rapist.

... I totally never play games were I say "I want to kill tons of people"*Hides all the dead people from Skyrim, that I put in humorous poses*
And there are goals that may require you to rape some one like... You must impregnate the queen of Alserdansia or else the world will fall in two days... You must impregnate somebody so that Batman is born in the future, but you have to do to somebody who is married and a very devoted wife... Your God and must rape the world to make it exist... Well none of these are good scenarios but still scenarios

Of course there's scenarios where you'd rape someone, you could also rape someone into submission or to get off. Every single one of them is terrible, there is no good scenario for rape. If you want to play a rapist there are games for that, but those games should never be acceptable.

 

[4RM3D]

Tell me a SINGLE story where removing the rape scene would have derailed it.

Wow, that is some first post you've made here. Welcome to The Escapist.

On topic: removing the rape scene doesn't remove the implications. Movies often try to avoid certain horrifying scenes when the movie still wants to talk about the subject, but isn't a (bloody) horror movie. Actually, sometimes the scene itself isn't the most powerful thing in the movie. If the movie is really good, the consequences weigh heavier. It is not about what you have seen, but how you feel about it.

The implications in movies like Let Me In [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1228987/] and Splice [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1017460/] are mind boggling. If you haven't seen Splice, it has a rape scene.

 

[Gorrath]

If you want to play a rapist there are games for that, but those games should never be acceptable.

Why? What do you mean by acceptable? Why is it the fictitious, gruesome murder of a human being for no other reason than "It's fun" is acceptable but the fictitious rape of someone is not? Why is torturing someone acceptable, but rape is not? It is all complete fiction with no actual person being hurt. It is pixels on a screen.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Why do you want rape in your games at all? Is what I would wonder.

Fighting enemies okay, Watching hilarious physics hitting people with cars in GTA okay.

Rape? I'm sorry but that's just a whole different level of nasty. I'm pretty sure Jimquisition went through this at some point.

The guy above makes a good point...

 

[4RM3D]

*snip*

*snip*

*claps* Well said

I am sorry but I don't see this at all, committing rape is seen as breaking the most basic forms of human morality and empathy and when cases of rape come up in the news even the coldest, most sociopathic newspapers like the Daily Mail won't attempt to blame the victim. There is universal hatred towards rapists and rape across all the developed world and people don't take it as trivially as you might suggest.

The media is always harsh towards the rapist and lenient towards the victim. But within the victim's family circle things are different. Like I have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, rape will dishonor the family in some cultures, resulting in exile or suicide. And sometimes the victim has to marry the rapist in order to restore family honor. That is just cruel.

 

[Gorrath]

Why do you want rape in your games at all? Is what I would wonder.

Fighting enemies okay, Watching hilarious physics hitting people with cars in GTA okay.

Rape? I'm sorry but that's just a whole different level of nasty. I'm pretty sure Jimquisition went through this at some point.

Lets say for a second that someone wants rape in their game because they find the idea of rape sexually exciting. Someone could make the argument you just made thusly:

"Why do you want murder in your games at all? Is what I wonder. Punching enemies is okay, watching enemies get their heads stomped on in Mario Bros. is okay.

Murder? I'm sorry but that's just a whole different level of nasty."

What difference does it make why someone would want rape in a game, or murder or anything else that is 'bad'? Maybe someone wants murder in their game so they can feel like a hero. Maybe someone likes murder in their game because they get off on violence. What people get out of it is wholly personal and not, in my estimation, a good reason for censorship. If someone were to tell you "I like rape games because I find rape hot," does that mean rape shouldn't be allowed?

 

[the December King]

I always thought of rape as a method of torture, a form of control. To portray it in a game, I would assume, is to encourage a negative reaction in the event, as one would get from any act of torture performed, or to be performed, by the player.

I would not enjoy playing a game that required me to perform torture or rape, even though it is a game, and no one was really getting hurt. I'm just not interested in such 'detailed' story arcs in my games.

 

[4RM3D]

I don't know if a culture that is so backwards and dark-age-y is a good example. Especially considering that most likely none of us live there. I assume that because people in those cultures tend to not have access to internet and games.

There are examples of cultures throughout history and all over the world that would challenge every moral value you can name. It would all boil down to "morals are subjective" and render any further discussion pointless.

Well, there is Japan. There are a few 'interesting' articles about it, but I dare not Google 'Japan and rape', because I still desperately trying to get the last videos I saw out of my mind. My curiosity went to far that time.

.............I'm not even going to touch this thread.

But you just did touch this thread, in fact, by posting here.