Rapist With The Dragon Tattoo

zelda2fanboy

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So, I just watched the Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (the American version) and I didn't like it. Granted, I never got bored and it was really well photographed, but I can't shake the feeling that that was an incredible waste of time and a sense of shock that so many people like it. I had no idea what was going on until about the last thirty minutes. All of the investigation stuff was sifting through photos and names of people I had no reference point for, and basically the case hinged on two pictures that apparently had such an obvious correlation that two characters figured it out separately on their own.

But before this turns into a user review / rant and before the dozens of people shouting that the book / other movie were way better, there's one point of contention in this movie that bugged the hell out of me. There's about 15 to 20 minutes of this lengthy 2 hour 36 minute movie devoted to a detailed rape and revenge sequence. I have no idea why it's there, I don't know how it serves the plot, I don't know why it was as explicit as it was, and I don't know why people haven't called bullshit on it yet. For those who haven't seen it

Lisbeth Salander is a computer hacker working for various companies under the table. She gets her money from a trust fund and dresses like a person who might do drugs or have trouble with the law. She has to go to "some guy" to declare her mentally competent and he precedes to ask her to perform oral sex on him to get her money. She agrees. Later, she goes to his apartment, where he handcuffs her to a bed, and as the movie makes sure to tell us, anally rapes her on screen. For some reason, the guy tries to be all nice and friendly afterwards like he doesn't know what he just did. She plans for a little bit and goes back to his apartment. He tries to "apologize" or something and she tasers him. She then handcuffs him, anally rapes him with a glass dildo, and says that she'll blackmail him with secret footage she took of the rape. Then, she tattoos "rapist pig" on his body.

So, how is she any less of a rapist than the guy who raped her? Theoretically, the guy could easily call the cops and they'd both go to jail for a really long time. Isn't rape categorically wrong and a crime no matter who commits it to who? Why does this beloved (from what I've seen online) character get let off the hook? One could argue that he "deserved" it or was "asking for it," but by definition, no one deserves or asks for rape. It's not possible. It feels pretty despicable and disgusting to paint that act of violence as justifiable, which I'm pretty sure this movie does. Maybe I'm weird and looking at it the wrong way, but it feels fucked up.
 

Nieroshai

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The author would tell you it was justified, if he was alive. The original title of the book was "Men who hate women."
 

JimB

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I think it was MovieBob who said Lisbeth Salander is supposed to be some kind of fantasy girl; a perfect woman for the author to masturbate to. This kind of revenge fantasy fits in pretty well with that theory.
 

Hoplon

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zelda2fanboy said:
A Big Snip.
Do you know what characterisation is? This particular segment establishes a fairly defining characteristic of Lisbeth and her methods and ability to respond to things. She is also not meant to be terribly sympathetic at this point in the story.

Also how fucked up are you that you sympathise with the guy who thinks it's okay to rape an apparently simple girl under his care?
 

Dangit2019

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It's an overblown revenge fantasy, they tend to be intentionally hyperbolic rather than have strict moral groundings.
 

Lionsfan

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I saw this movie like a month after it came out, and was dozing off in the theater. I woke up just in time to watch this lovely sequence of events.....
 

DementedSheep

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Are you supposed to think that?s a good thing? I haven?t seen t the movie so I don't know how they did that scene and I have only read the 1st book but I thought Lisbeth was meant to come across as fucked up, not someone you want to be like or look up too.

Though I personally didn?t really like the book. Rapists, rapists everywhere!
 

Fappy

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Dangit2019 said:
It's an overblown revenge fantasy, they tend to be intentionally hyperbolic rather than have strict moral groundings.
Yeah, pretty much this. I enjoyed the film, but it definitely wasn't perfect. Daniel Craig was the best part imo... but then he's the best part of every film he's in.

EDIT: 9001st POST OMG! HOLY SHIT! I AM OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

DevilWithaHalo

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When you look at it from the perspective of the characters within the film, it makes sense. He could have certainly turned her in after she raped him; in the same way she could have turned him in after he raped her. But the character decided to revenge rape him instead and blackmail him, and he decided to go along with it because it would have destroyed his life and position; which he certainly seemed to enjoy.

As for why people online say various things forgiving one character and not the other, well, rape culture? Patriarchy? It's only funny when it happens to men? Take your pick.

I was pretty "meh" through the whole movie (the original), don't really understand all the hype around it. Yet another foreign film with a rape scene (pretty much par for the course).
 

Dangit2019

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Fappy said:
Dangit2019 said:
It's an overblown revenge fantasy, they tend to be intentionally hyperbolic rather than have strict moral groundings.
Yeah, pretty much this. I enjoyed the film, but it definitely wasn't perfect. Daniel Craig was the best part imo... but then he's the best part of every film he's in.

EDIT: 9001st POST OMG! HOLY SHIT! I AM OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What? 9000? That's impossible!
 

Queen Michael

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It's a revenge fantasy. The entire point is that she gets humiliated just so that when she does what she does people'll feel that it's okay. That's the basic ideology of revenge fantasies: It's okay to enjoy torturing people for the sheer sadistic fun of it as long as they did something to you first. Even if said torture doesn't improve anything. It's like in Pulp Fiction when Vincent says that it would have been worth it to get his car keyed if he could just find and punish the punk who did it.

zelda2fanboy said:
I don't know how it serves the plot
Because you haven't read the second book.

Hoplon said:
zelda2fanboy said:
A Big Snip.
Do you know what characterisation is? This particular segment establishes a fairly defining characteristic of Lisbeth and her methods and ability to respond to things. She is also not meant to be terribly sympathetic at this point in the story.
Like I said, later on it becomes a part of the story.
 

Twyce

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I get the feeling that the rape scene with Lisbeth and her revenge is supposed to illustrate just how screwed up of a person she is (as others have pointed out). It wasn't supposed to be painted in a light of, "oh she is totally justified in doing this to the man!" but more along the lines of, wow she is messed up. I mean...

She set her dad on fire as a child to get revenge on him for beating the hell out of her mother.

Also, from what I recall, her whole revenge on Bjurman was done with the point of humiliating him (just as he did to her). She could have turned him in, but what would that have gotten her? Instead, she enacted the ultimate revenge fantasy and in the process was able to get FULL access to her funds AND have the freedom of not having a guardian.

Of course, I haven't seen the American version, and am going off the Swedish one, but in my understanding they are similar.
 

zelda2fanboy

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Hoplon said:
zelda2fanboy said:
A Big Snip.
Do you know what characterisation is? This particular segment establishes a fairly defining characteristic of Lisbeth and her methods and ability to respond to things. She is also not meant to be terribly sympathetic at this point in the story.

Also how fucked up are you that you sympathise with the guy who thinks it's okay to rape an apparently simple girl under his care?
Why is rape okay as long as it happens to a "bad guy?" I simply don't buy that premise. It fucking hurts (I'd imagine), in addition to all of the other things that would happen to a person's psyche. You can't rape in self defense. She did it for her own masochistic pleasure. Next will we have a movie where the protagonist is a prison rapist, but it's "okay" because he only assaults convicted rapists? And the movie sees it as justified and we're supposed to be on that character's side?
 

zelda2fanboy

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Queen Michael said:
Like I said, later on it becomes a part of the story.
Sigh. Remind me never to watch movies based off of popular book series again. The Harry Potter movies worked as standalone stories, so why do I have to just expect that this will all make sense later on? The Hunger Games was the same way.
 

DudeistBelieve

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zelda2fanboy said:
So, I just watched the Girl With the Dragon Tattoo (the American version) and I didn't like it. Granted, I never got bored and it was really well photographed, but I can't shake the feeling that that was an incredible waste of time and a sense of shock that so many people like it. I had no idea what was going on until about the last thirty minutes. All of the investigation stuff was sifting through photos and names of people I had no reference point for, and basically the case hinged on two pictures that apparently had such an obvious correlation that two characters figured it out separately on their own.

But before this turns into a user review / rant and before the dozens of people shouting that the book / other movie were way better, there's one point of contention in this movie that bugged the hell out of me. There's about 15 to 20 minutes of this lengthy 2 hour 36 minute movie devoted to a detailed rape and revenge sequence. I have no idea why it's there, I don't know how it serves the plot, I don't know why it was as explicit as it was, and I don't know why people haven't called bullshit on it yet. For those who haven't seen it

Lisbeth Salander is a computer hacker working for various companies under the table. She gets her money from a trust fund and dresses like a person who might do drugs or have trouble with the law. She has to go to "some guy" to declare her mentally competent and he precedes to ask her to perform oral sex on him to get her money. She agrees. Later, she goes to his apartment, where he handcuffs her to a bed, and as the movie makes sure to tell us, anally rapes her on screen. For some reason, the guy tries to be all nice and friendly afterwards like he doesn't know what he just did. She plans for a little bit and goes back to his apartment. He tries to "apologize" or something and she tasers him. She then handcuffs him, anally rapes him with a glass dildo, and says that she'll blackmail him with secret footage she took of the rape. Then, she tattoos "rapist pig" on his body.

So, how is she any less of a rapist than the guy who raped her? Theoretically, the guy could easily call the cops and they'd both go to jail for a really long time. Isn't rape categorically wrong and a crime no matter who commits it to who? Why does this beloved (from what I've seen online) character get let off the hook? One could argue that he "deserved" it or was "asking for it," but by definition, no one deserves or asks for rape. It's not possible. It feels pretty despicable and disgusting to paint that act of violence as justifiable, which I'm pretty sure this movie does. Maybe I'm weird and looking at it the wrong way, but it feels fucked up.
I never got the feeling her revenge was justified, and in fact both rape scenes I felt hit the perfect tone... cause hey, a lot of Lifetime movies where played in my house growing up, so I'm desensitized to rape to the point that the majority of the time I see it depicted in fiction I often mistake it for parody.

The rape scenes in this movie where like having a really bad psychedelic drug trip. I felt physically ill.

For story purposes though it was a huge motivation behind the character helping out with the case... because as it's said, she only takes cases that she has personal interest in and having just been rape she takes great pleasure in fucking up guys that take advantage of women.

I never got the feeling I was suppose to feel she was justified in doing all that, as I took I thought of her as more of an Anti-Hero.
 

Muspelheim

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Well, no, it isn't okay. And I doubt it was the intention of the scene to paint it as okay. It's just what she does to take revenge. It's one ill human being repaying an action by another ill human being.

In short; Lisbeth IS fucked up, and so is this action. You don't have to accept it or think it's A-okay or that the guy deserved it, she did it nonetheless. She just isn't sane.

As for me? Well, I like a good revenge arch. It's not okay, but sometimes in fiction, you've moved beyond the point where that is relevant, and that is when a revenge arch works.
 

Zhukov

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In terms of the plot, the rape incident gives Lisbeth a personal interest in the main case.

As for justification, eh, she repays cruelty with cruelty. Eye for an eye and all that. How you regard that is down to your own moral outlook, but revenge is a fairly common theme in movies.

Speaking of which, I hope you were similarly disgusted by ever other violent revenge plot in ever other movie ever. V for Vendetta, Gladiator etc etc.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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lisbeth is suposed to be fucked up......were not exactly suposed to nod our heads and agree with her punishment

however I'll admit its damn hard not to agree that scum got what was coming to him, I have no sympathy