Rare but relatively simple features that really should be standard.

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

A few days ago, I moved the quick turn button in Max Payne 3 to key P so that I would never press it again. It was right next to my shoulder swap button (Z). I can turn so quick with a mouse that I don't really see the point. When I turn with my mouse, I don't have to then reposition the camera.

I almost never used it in MP3. But it's a useful features that many games could benefit from. Especially if you're using a gamepad for whatever reason.

 

[NPC009]

If there's one thing Bravely Default did right, it's giving the player full control over the random encounter rate. Except from maybe some dungeon crawlers this needs to be be standard in RPGs with random encounters.

It ruined the game. Being able to grind for hours and ignore enemies for hours just breaks the flow of the game. It's a convenience feature but it hurts the game overall. I could meet you halfway with accessories/abilities like Enc-None and Enc-Double but as a menu command available from the beginning, no. There's a reason you would never see it on a mainline Final Fantasy title.

Don't you mean "I ruined the game"? If you want it the regular way, you can just leave it alone. Plus, many RPG's have lower/increase encounter rate spells and/or items. Bravely Default just made it a lot more convenient.

Yes, I ruined it but just like tedious side quest annoy those who are completionists, this ruins the game for those who love to get overpowered as quickly as possible. Take for example Final Fantasy 8 where you can get very powerful early in the game if you take the time to card enemies and get magic to junction. To me, that is fun and given an opportunity to grind and become god-like at the beginning of the game is impossible to resist. The difference between the mechanics of FF8 and Bravely Default is that with Final Fantasy 8 becoming overpowered early is not a menu option but rather changing the way you play which is counter to a typical JRPG.

The menu options for encounters in Bravely Default are more like using Gameshark codes on an older Final Fantasy game.

In Final Fantasy VII you grind magic from enemies to increase your stats to absurd levels. In Bravely Default you grind to increase your job levels. It's grinding. You don't have to do this, but many RPG's allow you to. Bravely Default just gives you a tool to make it slightly easier. It's not the instant win you make it out to be. Even if you do increase the encounter rate, you still have to actually defeat all those enemies to actually gain anything.

So, what, exactly, is the actual difference?

 

[Zhukov]

When fighting bosses, Boss Health Bars.

This is especially true when fighting bosses who are damage sponges.

I like to know how much progress I'm making in a boss fight. Granted, there are probably other more realistic ways of letting me know how far I've come in a fight, but give me something so that I know how far into the fight I've come. Imagine if those Dark Souls bosses didn't have health bars. All those thrilling times when you were one hit away from winning and then died, gone, and you wouldn't even know how effective your weapons are at dealing damage to the boss.

The bosses in God of War 2 and 3 had no life bars and I remember quitting out of boredom, after swinging away at them, repeating patterns over and over, and just wondering, "Is he dead yet?"

You know, this is a great point. It also reinforces that health bars are an outdate form of design carried over since practically the beginning of gaming. There should definitely be a push to make combat encounters, especially boss fights more interesting than battles of attrition. Bloodborne at least changed this up with phases, and I think DS3 as well. There are probably other games that do even more but I can't think of any off hand. MK9/X have damage basic damage decals for example, which is still better than nothing.

I know these are just games, but bosses need to start showing and responding accordingly to damage dished out in general than a mere "Yup, he's still alive" or "Whup, he's dead now". If I'm hacking away at a glob of flesh dozens of times with a sword, the least it could do is show some cuts even as decals and bleed a little.

I guess this is one area where technology is still lacking.

More complete photomode filters, and a dev. mod even for console games. Some of us really want to see what went into a level or whatever other detail, and being able to float around these various aspects with different on/off toggles for enemies, npcs, lighting, post processing, collision, etc. would be very pleasing.

Dev mode could worst case be locked behind "complete/beat the game first" to make it more of a reward, and of course achievements/trophies would be disabled during use.

I wouldn't put that in my game, and I'd frankly be annoyed if new guidelines forced me to. Definitely shouldn't be standard. It's like a magician being forced to reveal his tricks, and it's more work and money for something that doesn't enhance the game.

It's already in there anyways. Every game made has a dev mode for various quality checks, and all this would do is make it available to players.

As far as revealing tricks, it's not like anyone would see any code; at most cfg's. On console especially the dev magic could easily still be hidden behind a fancy wall that would make Trump jealous.

Mods and what it takes to make them are far more revealing yet no one has a problem with those.

You mean like the debug mode from the Sonic trilogy and NieR: Automata? That's fine, I guess. Doesn't a 3D photo mode require more work, though?

Yeah, nothing elaborate. I think photo mode is just an extension of this. I'm sure it takes more work to put together an option GUI, but still minor effort next to the game itself. I'm no expert though. Someone who works on games could answer far better.

 

[WeepingAngels]

If there's one thing Bravely Default did right, it's giving the player full control over the random encounter rate. Except from maybe some dungeon crawlers this needs to be be standard in RPGs with random encounters.

It ruined the game. Being able to grind for hours and ignore enemies for hours just breaks the flow of the game. It's a convenience feature but it hurts the game overall. I could meet you halfway with accessories/abilities like Enc-None and Enc-Double but as a menu command available from the beginning, no. There's a reason you would never see it on a mainline Final Fantasy title.

Don't you mean "I ruined the game"? If you want it the regular way, you can just leave it alone. Plus, many RPG's have lower/increase encounter rate spells and/or items. Bravely Default just made it a lot more convenient.

Yes, I ruined it but just like tedious side quest annoy those who are completionists, this ruins the game for those who love to get overpowered as quickly as possible. Take for example Final Fantasy 8 where you can get very powerful early in the game if you take the time to card enemies and get magic to junction. To me, that is fun and given an opportunity to grind and become god-like at the beginning of the game is impossible to resist. The difference between the mechanics of FF8 and Bravely Default is that with Final Fantasy 8 becoming overpowered early is not a menu option but rather changing the way you play which is counter to a typical JRPG.

The menu options for encounters in Bravely Default are more like using Gameshark codes on an older Final Fantasy game.

In Final Fantasy VII you grind magic from enemies to increase your stats to absurd levels. In Bravely Default you grind to increase your job levels. It's grinding. You don't have to do this, but many RPG's allow you to. Bravely Default just gives you a tool to make it slightly easier. It's not the instant win you make it out to be. Even if you do increase the encounter rate, you still have to actually defeat all those enemies to actually gain anything.

So, what, exactly, is the actual difference?

I thought I explained the difference pretty well already. Carding enemies and getting magic (you don't have to draw too much, the game offers more than one way to get magic) is a strategic way to play. You can totally grind levels like a normal JRPG and that does increase the difficulty but the game offers a strategy to get stronger while the enemies stay weak. It's not the same as turning up/down the encounter rate in the menu. FF8 does offer a way to turn down/off the encounter rate but you won't get it right away and it costs you an ability slot to use.

If you still think those are really the same thing then I we'll just have to agree to disagree. Breaking the game by checking a menu option is not the same as breaking the game using strategy. Let me just ask you, do you think Final Fantasy 7 would be improved with the ability to alter the encounter rate at will?

 

[NPC009]

I thought I explained the difference pretty well already. Carding enemies and getting magic (you don't have to draw too much, the game offers more than one way to get magic) is a strategic way to play. You can totally grind levels like a normal JRPG and that does increase the difficulty but the game offers a strategy to get stronger while the enemies stay weak. It's not the same as turning up/down the encounter rate in the menu. FF8 does offer a way to turn down/off the encounter rate but you won't get it right away and it costs you an ability slot to use.

If you still think those are really the same thing then I we'll just have to agree to disagree. Breaking the game by checking a menu option is not the same as breaking the game using strategy. Let me just ask you, do you think Final Fantasy 7 would be improved with the ability to alter the encounter rate at will?

It's the same thing. You get stronger and make the game easier by repeating the same thing over and over again. Just because you don't grind the exact same thing doesn't mean the end results aren't the same. You grind and the game becomes easier.

Also, how does a higher encounter rate break the game? You still have to defeat those enemies to actually get stronger. You still have to do the grindy part. The main difference is that it's a little faster with a higher encounter rate. It's an option many games offer as well, but instead of moving a slide in the menu, you use an item or spell so cheap you can ignore the costs.

It's the same with lowering or nulling the encounter rate. It something many games allow through the use of very cheap items and spells, but Bravely Default makes something easy and cheap even more hassle free.

You only feel there is a difference because you probably felt a little smart for figuring out how to grind in Final Fantasy VIII.

 

[WeepingAngels]

I thought I explained the difference pretty well already. Carding enemies and getting magic (you don't have to draw too much, the game offers more than one way to get magic) is a strategic way to play. You can totally grind levels like a normal JRPG and that does increase the difficulty but the game offers a strategy to get stronger while the enemies stay weak. It's not the same as turning up/down the encounter rate in the menu. FF8 does offer a way to turn down/off the encounter rate but you won't get it right away and it costs you an ability slot to use.

If you still think those are really the same thing then I we'll just have to agree to disagree. Breaking the game by checking a menu option is not the same as breaking the game using strategy. Let me just ask you, do you think Final Fantasy 7 would be improved with the ability to alter the encounter rate at will?

It's the same thing. You get stronger and make the game easier by repeating the same thing over and over again. Just because you don't grind the exact same thing doesn't mean the end results aren't the same. You grind and the game becomes easier.

Also, how does a higher encounter rate break the game? You still have to defeat those enemies to actually get stronger. You still have to do the grindy part. The main difference is that it's a little faster with a higher encounter rate. It's an option many games offer as well, but instead of moving a slide in the menu, you use an item or spell so cheap you can ignore the costs.

It's the same with lowering or nulling the encounter rate. It something many games allow through the use of very cheap items and spells, but Bravely Default makes something easy and cheap even more hassle free.

You only feel there is a difference because you probably felt a little smart for figuring out how to grind in Final Fantasy VIII.

Well if all you are looking at is the end result then this conversation is pointless. If I use a Gameshark and get the same results, it's the same to you. Ok well, carry on.

 

[BrawlMan]

When fighting bosses, Boss Health Bars.

This is especially true when fighting bosses who are damage sponges.

I like to know how much progress I'm making in a boss fight. Granted, there are probably other more realistic ways of letting me know how far I've come in a fight, but give me something so that I know how far into the fight I've come. Imagine if those Dark Souls bosses didn't have health bars. All those thrilling times when you were one hit away from winning and then died, gone, and you wouldn't even know how effective your weapons are at dealing damage to the boss.

The bosses in God of War 2 and 3 had no life bars and I remember quitting out of boredom, after swinging away at them, repeating patterns over and over, and just wondering, "Is he dead yet?"

This is where companies like Platinum Games, Koei Tecmo, Grasshopper Studios, and Capcom succeed. All of their games in the same genre is God of War give bosses Health meters. In Viewtiful Joe, Bayonetta, Killer Is Dead, and No More Heroes, the enemies have health meters or show physical damage. Ninja Gaiden 3 (Vanilla) seems to be the exception.

A feature that every game needs is ability to play the game on the highest difficulty from the start. I know certain developers lock difficulty just to ease in new players, but if some dumbass chooses to start at the most difficult setting; that is on them for not thinking straight.

 

[NPC009]

Well if all you are looking at is the end result then this conversation is pointless. If I use a Gameshark and get the same results, it's the same to you. Ok well, carry on.

No wait, how would that be the same? Unless you figure out the right hex values and everything yourself (which would actually be a lot more impressive than grinding exp for a few hours, so kudos to you), there is no work involved. Like I said before, Bravely Default does not offer an option to automatically increase your level, it only gives you a tool to make grinding slightly easier in case you want to grind, or to not encounter any enemies at all if you feel there's no need to fight enemies at the moment.

Or do you see adjusting the encounter rate itself as a cheat code? If so, how do you view all those insanely affordable spells and items that do exactly the same thing? Is, let's say, using Estoma in a MegaTen-game cheating? How about repels in Pok?mon?

 

[WeepingAngels]

Well if all you are looking at is the end result then this conversation is pointless. If I use a Gameshark and get the same results, it's the same to you. Ok well, carry on.

No wait, how would that be the same? Unless you figure out the right hex values and everything yourself (which would actually be a lot more impressive than grinding exp for a few hours, so kudos to you), there is no work involved. Like I said before, Bravely Default does not offer an option to automatically increase your level, it only gives you a tool to make grinding slightly easier in case you want to grind, or to not encounter any enemies at all if you feel there's no need to fight enemies at the moment.

Or do you see adjusting the encounter rate itself as a cheat code? If so, how do you view all those insanely affordable spells and items that do exactly the same thing? Is, let's say, using Estoma in a MegaTen-game cheating? How about repels in Pok?mon?

Yes, being able to adjust the encounter rate at will is like cheat codes I have actually used over the years. If you use the ability to crank up the encounters and stay in an area grinding and then later completely turn off the encounters because you grinded enough in an earlier section, you break the flow of the game. There is a reason why you will only find this option in a spin off FF game and not in a mainline game.

As I said, learning abilities that adjust the encounter rate is fine as you don't get it at the beginning of the game, you have to play the game the proper way to gain them and abilities have a cost (in the case of FF8, it uses a slot). FF8 doesn't actually have an ability to increase encounters so if you want to hang around an area to grind, you will have to do it at the normal encounter rate. You can only turn the encounters down and that is no doubt only useful in timed areas and at the end of the game when grinding no longer serves a purpose.

Oh and as for actually having to fight the battles? No, Bravely Default has a very fast auto battle so not only can you crank up the encounter rate, you can put the 3DS down during battles and let the game do the grinding for you.

 

[NPC009]

Yes, being able to adjust the encounter rate at will is like cheat codes I have actually used over the years. If you use the ability to crank up the encounters and stay in an area grinding and then later completely turn off the encounters because you grinded enough in an earlier section, you break the flow of the game. There is a reason why you will only find this option in a spin off FF game and not in a mainline game.

Uh, most recent Final Fantasies had enemies visible on the screen, many of which you could avoid if you wanted to...

Also, just because something was always done a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Random encounters and having battle take place in a different environment were just a way to use the limited power of early systems efficiently. The encounter rates, experience points etc were set to give the player a sense of progress without having them go through the game too fast. (Some developers were better at that than others...)

But why would that be the only right way to do it? People have been making games easier by overleveling ever since that was a possibility. You could easily defend that this is a way people enjoy their game. So why not give players the tool to have that experience hassle free? And even if you give them that tool, the players who don't want to use it won't be affected as long as you make sure the game is balanced at the normal encounter rate.

As I said, learning abilities that adjust the encounter rate is fine as you don't get it at the beginning of the game, you have to play the game the proper way to gain them and abilities have a cost (in the case of FF8, it uses a slot). FF8 doesn't actually have an ability to increase encounters so if you want to hang around an area to grind, you will have to do it at the normal encounter rate. You can only turn the encounters down and that is no doubt only useful in timed areas and at the end of the game when grinding no longer serves a purpose.

But why is that the proper way? 'Because it's always been that way' is not a good reason.

Plus, you were grinding in Final Fantasy 8 with the regular encounter rate by the sounds of it.

Oh and as for actually having to fight the battles? No, Bravely Default has a very fast auto battle so not only can you crank up the encounter rate, you can put the 3DS down during battles and let the game do the grinding for you.

Only works if you are actually strong enough to easily take on those enemies.

Also, autobattle is a thing in many games and has been for a long time. And heck, elastic bands + controller = ... Or hey, remember those controllers with programmable buttons?

No matter how you look at it, people have been grinding - and looking for ways to make it easier - for over three decades. It's a way people play RPGs and all Bravely Default did was acknowledging that, making the game more fun for them without taking anything away from people who don't want to grind. The menu option is entirely optional. You do not have to use it.

Or are you one of those salty people who thinks people are only allowed to enjoy a game one way?

 

[WeepingAngels]

Yes, being able to adjust the encounter rate at will is like cheat codes I have actually used over the years. If you use the ability to crank up the encounters and stay in an area grinding and then later completely turn off the encounters because you grinded enough in an earlier section, you break the flow of the game. There is a reason why you will only find this option in a spin off FF game and not in a mainline game.

Uh, most recent Final Fantasies had enemies visible on the screen, many of which you could avoid if you wanted to...

We weren't talking about this.

Also, just because something was always done a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Random encounters and having battle take place in a different environment were just a way to use the limited power of early systems efficiently. The encounter rates, experience points etc were set to give the player a sense of progress without having them go through the game too fast. (Some developers were better at that than others...)

Ah yes, the old 'but older systems couldn't handle action games' myth. Not that it's relevent to our discussion anyway.

But why would that be the only right way to do it? People have been making games easier by overleveling ever since that was a possibility. You could easily defend that this is a way people enjoy their game. So why not give players the tool to have that experience hassle free? And even if you give them that tool, the players who don't want to use it won't be affected as long as you make sure the game is balanced at the normal encounter rate.

I already discussed this. I like to overlevel and this tool is irresistible for me to use. It also breaks the flow of the game if you use it to overlevel. It breaks the flow of the game if you underlevel too because at some point you will have to stop to grind.

But why is that the proper way? 'Because it's always been that way' is not a good reason.

I never said that it's the proper way because it's always been that way. I am not saying that X is the only proper way, I am saying that letting players control the encounter rate from the beginning through the menu is NOT the proper way. Many games have built in cheats that can be activated through a console command or a button combination but putting your cheats right in the damn menu... You know, even the Lego games make you work to unlock the cheats.

Plus, you were grinding in Final Fantasy 8 with the regular encounter rate by the sounds of it.

Yes, what's your point. You are having trouble staying on topic here. I didn't double my encounter rate and I didn't turn encounters off until grinding was unnecessary.

Only works if you are actually strong enough to easily take on those enemies.

If you can crank up encounters then you are obviously strong enough. The auto battle speeds it up and does all the work for you. You do that for awhile in each area and by midgame you may be able to turn encounters off for the rest of the game. You think that's the flow the developers intended?

Also, autobattle is a thing in many games and has been for a long time. And heck, elastic bands + controller = ... Or hey, remember those controllers with programmable buttons?

I thought we understood that in game cheats (like controlling the encounter rate in the menu) are not the same as external cheats like using a Gameshark or a turbo controller.

No matter how you look at it, people have been grinding - and looking for ways to make it easier - for over three decades. It's a way people play RPGs and all Bravely Default did was acknowledging that, making the game more fun for them without taking anything away from people who don't want to grind. The menu option is entirely optional. You do not have to use it.

It doesn't make the game more fun, that's my point. Controlling the encounter rate and grinding are not one in the same. Grinding is grinding and many people love to do it, I do but controlling the encounter rate just makes it too easy to abuse grinding and ruin the flow of the late game.

Or are you one of those salty people who thinks people are only allowed to enjoy a game one way?

I don't know what this means. Thinking a feature is overpowered should not get one labeled in this way. What if you could just go into the menu of Super Mario Bros 1, 2, 3 or World and just turn invincibility on at will? More fun?

 

[Dalisclock]

As others have mentioned.

-Pausable cut scenes-Especially for long ones, because sometimes the phone rings, sometimes you have to go to the bathroom and sometimes an infant starts screaming in the next room. I should have the option to tell the game to take a chill break while I deal with stuff.

-Skippable Cutscenes-Seriously. I don't understand why this isn't considered standard. Especially if the cutscene comes just before a boss battle. Even more so, if a cutscene if 5 minutes long and comes just before a difficult boss. Yes, I'm looking at you, Final Fantasy X.

Personally, I like the Souls approach to this. Cutscenes associated with boss fights will play once, the first time it's triggered. Every subsequent attempt will not play the cutscene at all.

 

[NPC009]

Yes, being able to adjust the encounter rate at will is like cheat codes I have actually used over the years. If you use the ability to crank up the encounters and stay in an area grinding and then later completely turn off the encounters because you grinded enough in an earlier section, you break the flow of the game. There is a reason why you will only find this option in a spin off FF game and not in a mainline game.

Uh, most recent Final Fantasies had enemies visible on the screen, many of which you could avoid if you wanted to...

We weren't talking about this.

But you brought it up?

And really, what were you trying to prove? Of course a game can't have a slide to control random encounters if it doesn't have random encounters in the first place.

Also, just because something was always done a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Random encounters and having battle take place in a different environment were just a way to use the limited power of early systems efficiently. The encounter rates, experience points etc were set to give the player a sense of progress without having them go through the game too fast. (Some developers were better at that than others...)

Ah yes, the old 'but older systems couldn't handle action games' myth. Not that it's relevent to our discussion anyway.

That is not what I'm saying. There were limits like how many objects you could have on screen at the time, that's one of the reasons random battles took the shape they did. And it's not just turn-based games that do this. Action-RPG's like most of the Tales games also confined the player to a special arena during battles, because this is much less of a burden on the hardware. The fluid exploration-to-battle you see more often now is a very recent thing.

And I'd say this is very relevant to our discussion. Hardware limitations affect how games are designed. When you've only got so much to work with, you need to find short cuts to make the most of it. (And that's not just a thing of the past - it's something developers still struggle with every day.) The random battles we love to hate/hate to love evolved out of limitations and clever thinking. Understanding why they came to be is important if you want to look at how they could/should evolve.

But why would that be the only right way to do it? People have been making games easier by overleveling ever since that was a possibility. You could easily defend that this is a way people enjoy their game. So why not give players the tool to have that experience hassle free? And even if you give them that tool, the players who don't want to use it won't be affected as long as you make sure the game is balanced at the normal encounter rate.

I already discussed this. I like to overlevel and this tool is irresistible for me to use. It also breaks the flow of the game if you use it to overlevel. It breaks the flow of the game if you underlevel too because at some point you will have to stop to grind. [/quote]

So, you being unable to resist certain urges makes something bad game design?

But why is that the proper way? 'Because it's always been that way' is not a good reason.

I never said that it's the proper way because it's always been that way. I am not saying that X is the only proper way, I am saying that letting players control the encounter rate from the beginning through the menu is NOT the proper way. Many games have built in cheats that can be activated through a console command or a button combination but putting your cheats right in the damn menu... You know, even the Lego games make you work to unlock the cheats.

Plus, you were grinding in Final Fantasy 8 with the regular encounter rate by the sounds of it.

Yes, what's your point. You are having trouble staying on topic here. I didn't double my encounter rate and I didn't turn encounters off until grinding was unnecessary. [/quote]

Okay, I'll simplify it as much as possible for you.

1. You like to grind.
2. You grinded to get stronger in FF8.
3. You think grinding in FF8 is okay.
4. You think grinding in other RPG's is bad.

See how you're not making sense? Your problem has nothing to do with encounter rates. Encounter rates are just a variables in the equation that is grinding.

Grinding = spending time repeating the same actions to make the game easier

FF8 grinding = drawing and otherwise obtaining spells to boosts stats and such

Bravely Default grinding = fighting battles to gain points to increase job levels and gain skills

It's both grinding. The only difference is that the encounter rate is much more relevant to one game than it is to the other. Also note that you can still grind in Bravely Default if you never increase the encounter rate. The slide just let's you waste a little less time if you do decide to grind.

So really, it's looking like you're the problem, not the game. And you being terrible at controling yourself is a terrible reason to not include a handy little feature.

If you can crank up encounters then you are obviously strong enough.

Uh, no? Lots of people grind a little to gain a few more levels because they felt a little too weak for the current area/boss.

The auto battle speeds it up and does all the work for you. You do that for awhile in each area and by midgame you may be able to turn encounters off for the rest of the game. You think that's the flow the developers intended?

It's an option they give you. You do not have to use it. The developers put it there for you to use to shape the flow to your own liking. If you want to grind, well, there's an easy way to increase the encounter rate. If you think you're strong enough to go straight to the boss or just don't want to spend a lot of time fighting while visiting an old location, you lower the rate or switch encounters off entirely. That's what they intended.

Again, note that there are many games out there who let you do the exact same thing early with cheap spells and items.

Also, autobattle is a thing in many games and has been for a long time. And heck, elastic bands + controller = ... Or hey, remember those controllers with programmable buttons?

I thought we understood that in game cheats (like controlling the encounter rate in the menu) are not the same as external cheats like using a Gameshark or a turbo controller.

How are they not the same? They're all shortcuts. You can use them if you want to or not. What exactly is wrong with making the game fun for yourself?

Game designers are not perfect. They screw up from time to time. If there's an easy way to fix an unfun part of the game, why not go for it? Heck, this is actually one of the more popular parts of PC gaming: if gamers don't like it, they fix it themselves with mods.

And really, even if they didn't screw up and you just know you'll have more fun by playing the game slightly differently from intended, there's nothing wrong with that as long as you're not bothering other players (which is, fortunately, a non-issue in single player RPGs). You paid for the game, so you decide how you want to play it.

It doesn't make the game more fun, that's my point. Controlling the encounter rate and grinding are not one in the same. Grinding is grinding and many people love to do it, I do but controlling the encounter rate just makes it too easy to abuse grinding and ruin the flow of the late game.

It doesn't make the game more fun for YOU. Most players don't compulsively and/or obsessivily grind when giving the opportunity.

Or are you one of those salty people who thinks people are only allowed to enjoy a game one way?

I don't know what this means. Thinking a feature is overpowered should not get one labeled in this way. What if you could just go into the menu of Super Mario Bros 1, 2, 3 or World and just turn invincibility on at will? More fun?

You labeled the feature over-powered based on your own poor control of your urge to grind levels. If you want to argue something is a game design flaw, you also have to consider how other players might percieve it. And, you know, be self-aware enough to know when you're grinding...

Oh, and there are many old games that do feature some sort of invincibility cheat because people found them fun. Sadly, build-in cheats seem to have gone the way to the dodo, so now, when possible, gamers mod in convenient and silly stuff themselves instead.

 

[WeepingAngels]

But you brought it up?

I never brought up enemies visible on the screen. We were talking about giving the player full control of the random encounters and how it breaks the game.

That is not what I'm saying. There were limits like how many objects you could have on screen at the time, that's one of the reasons random battles took the shape theyey did. And it's not just turn-based games that do this. Action-RPG's like most of the Tales games also confined the plar to a special arena during battles, because this is much less of a burden on the hardware. The fluid exploration-to-battle you see more often now is a very recent thing.

There were action games on the NES with enemies on the screen that you fought without having to go to a battle subscreen. This myth that random encounters, battle subscreens and turn based battles ONLY existed because of limitations needs to die. These things are good design decisions in their own right. I personally prefer random encounters to ugly enemy sprites messing up the scenery. I also prefer turn based battle.

So, you being unable to resist certain urges makes something bad game design?

Be careful here. Oh what the hell I'll just ask. Are you ok with a game adding in the ability to do a full HP recover for players unable to resist using it? Would the problem here be the players unable to resist or the built in cheat code?

Okay, I'll simplify it as much as possible for you.

1. You like to grind.
2. You grinded to get stronger in FF8.
3. You think grinding in FF8 is okay.
4. You think grinding in other RPG's is bad.

See how you're not making sense? Your problem has nothing to do with encounter rates. Encounter rates are just a variables in the equation that is grinding.

I never said grinding in other RPG's is bad, I love grinding. We have finally found the misunderstanding. I think cheating the grinding system is bad. That is to say that cranking up the encounter rate and turning on the super fast auto battle means that you can grind early and often and then never see another non scripted enemy past the mid game. You see, with grinding there comes a point where you have to move on with the game as the XP is too little to justify the time it takes to get in and out of battle and the effort of fighting it. Bravely Default automates the battles and it does them quickly. How in the world can you still not be understanding this?

Grinding = spending time repeating the same actions to make the game easier

FF8 grinding = drawing and otherwise obtaining spells to boosts stats and such

Bravely Default grinding = fighting battles to gain points to increase job levels and gain skills

It's both grinding. The only difference is that the encounter rate is much more relevant to one game than it is to the other. Also note that you can still grind in Bravely Default if you never increase the encounter rate. The slide just let's you waste a little less time if you do decide to grind.

So really, it's looking like you're the problem, not the game. And you being terrible at controling yourself is a terrible reason to not include a handy little feature.

The difference is that Bravely Default does the grinding for you, quickly. Ok, I am done here. We aren't going to get anywhere repeating ourselves. Have a nice day.

 

[NPC009]

But you brought it up?

I never brought up enemies visible on the screen. We were talking about giving the player full control of the random encounters and how it breaks the game.

Then why did you bring up games that do not feature random encounters in the first place?

There were action games on the NES with enemies on the screen that you fought without having to go to a battle subscreen. This myth that random encounters, battle subscreens and turn based battles ONLY existed because of limitations needs to die. These things are good design decisions in their own right. I personally prefer random encounters to ugly enemy sprites messing up the scenery. I also prefer turn based battle.

Okay, I guess you just know nothing about programming, hardware or game design...

The point wasn't about action games being hard (which they are, if you want to do it right), it was about limitations leading to things like having battles taking place in a seperate arena instead of using the actual location as a background. For instance, the NES can't handle that many animated sprites all at once, so the towns, dungeons etc of Final Fantasy feature rather simple sprites. The once used in battle are bigger and fancier, but movement of those sprites is very limited. Heck, that's a trick even Final Fantasy VII uses. The places the random battles take place are kept simple so most of the processing power can go to the 3D models, spell effects and so on. Or look at the Tales games, for the longest time, battles took place in an seperate area. That way, the system could focus on having 8+ seperate sprite/models running around, most of them being controlled by AI, and still guarantee a somewhat stable frame rate (well, most of the time...).

Nowadays most systems have the power to have complex battles run fairly smoothly without having to magically teleport the enemies and characters to some sort of battle dimension.

So, to repeat the actual point: hardware limitations affect game design. Take that into account when discussing game design choices, because some of the things we grew used to evolved from those limitations. Don't just assume that because something is a certain way, it's supposed to always be that way.

Be careful here. Oh what the hell I'll just ask. Are you ok with a game adding in the ability to do a full HP recover for players unable to resist using it? Would the problem here be the players unable to resist or the built in cheat code?

Yes. I know several games that offer something like automatic after-battle HP recovery as part of the difficulty settings. That's totally fine. I'm all for players being able to adjust the difficulty to their own liking so they can play the game in a way they enjoy most.

If you're the type who can't resist playing on the easiest difficulty setting just because it's the easiest, and then complain you didn't enjoy the game because it was too easy, you're the one with a problem.

Similarly, if you look down in players for enjoying the game on a lower difficulty setting, something which does not affect your enjoyment of the game at all, you're just being an ass.

The difference is that Bravely Default does the grinding for you, quickly. Ok, I am done here. We aren't going to get anywhere repeating ourselves. Have a nice day.

Except that is doesn't, unless you've already grinded to the point where your characters are able to take on enemies without any supervision.

But okay, bye. I hope you find a way to enjoy your games without having your compulsion to grind get in the way.