Real Horror Games Don't Need Co-op

[mysecondlife]

I'm ok with share button.

Sure, it probably wont serve more than sharing glitches and bugs that occurred in the game. Though, if more games like Alien CM comes out, I bet that button's going to be really convenient.

 

[Seneschal]

Thank you for endorsing Pussy Mode (TM). Some of us appreciate anything that enables us to play all those cool horror games (or mildly-scary action games) that sound so fun, but that we wuss-out on when faced with their gameplay.

You know how you usually pay for a movie and can safely assume you'll be allowed to see the whole thing? Well, I'd like more of such guarantees for video-games.

 

[bunnielovekins]

I think survival horror could be done incredibly effectively in a co-op game. Note that I'm not saying an entire co-op game with a survival horror focus would work. Rather, I believe a single stage, much like Ravenholm in Half Life 2, or that ice bit with the skulls and the shrieky things in Yahtzee's Poacher, could be quite effective and memorable. The trick would be to not bend the formula.

Imagine this:
1. The game offers fantastic in-built VOIP features as well as smooth textual chat to dissuade use of external communications such as Skype. There would be in-built support for the volume of players to rise and fall based on distance between you.
2. At some point in the game, the players are isolated. Lights go off, horror tropes are intentionally cheesy to encourage players to start taking the piss.
3. The players are silently split apart before dim lights return.
4. Now, in addition to the volume fade relative to distance, communicating players will experience large chunks of text in textual chat getting replaced by dots and both dropouts and pitch distortions in VOIP, the severity of each again varying as a function of distance between players. You begin placed barely within audible range of one another.
5. Shadows dart down corridors. You ask over VOIP if thats your friend. The moment the response comes, huge chunks of it drop out making it impossible to understand. One player is given a jump scare. Yes, jump scares are cheap, but the goal of this isn't to spook the player who receives the jump scare itself but rather to spook the other player via his/her friend's reactions.
6. Further jump scares are all non-scripted, and based around genuinely being surprised by a stealthy enemy AI.
7. The stage is designed so that players get closer and further from one another a few times, even seeing eahc other across a gap or window at one point.
8. When the survival horror stage finally ends, all the communications distortions naturally taper off in the same way they did as the players' locations converged during the segment. Due to this, both players are left uncertain for some time whether the survival horror section is entirely over. VOIP and textual glitches will also periodically return during the following stage to further encourage uncertainty and residual tension.

I could see this being awesome, especially with a doom 3 or dead space-ish feel to it. Knowing when to split players up is an art form that doesn't seem to have been explored very much historically.

 

[Kalahee]

I'm quoting all three of you because I feel that you all need to be reminded of what co-op does to games. You see, horror is about making a person feel weak. They do this by using disturbing and uncomfortable events and themes, by taking away our means to combat them, and/or isolating us from any form of help or relief (among other things).

Co-op skull-fucks those concepts because human by their nature are social creatures. The more of us there are, the stronger we are because we can now communicate and co-ordinate to combat obstacles that arise, whether by physically lending a hand or by simple emotional support.

The basic human nature also include egoism and greed. Exploited correctly, your ally may becomes your worst enemy. See WarZ and DayZ players behavior, yes they are games, but that's what we are still talking about. For a movie, see The Mist. An ally may also become an handicap which you'll have to defend so you are not left alone and weak. Some people who are more 'cooperative' and 'trustworthy' may not experience the horror like solo players, but there's plenty of way to exploit COOP in horror (I'm not saying to make a MMO, that actually skull-fuck ANY 'You are the hero who's gonna save us all!' game).

So when you add another player into a horror game, you remove those fear inducing aspects because there is someone else out there who is experiencing those same things, who can help you through them, and who can empathize with your feelings and support your psyche through the event.

Horror isn't all about being alone. Solitude isn't the only FEAR in the whole wide world. As you said, it's taking away the comfort. Threat to one of you is a threat to all group. Left 4 Dead may not be the most fear inducing game, but take a member out and the group starts to be a bit more edgy and careful, knowing their chance of survival to have diminished.

Heck, the part of the Hidden video that josemlopes bid us watch shows exactly why Co-op horror doesn't work, as not even 5 seconds after the jump scare pops out and activates the player's fight-or-flight instinct (which could equally be done by your pet unexpectedly jumping into your lap in broad daylight), they're laughing. LAUGHING! A singleplayer horror game would have the player freaking out for at least 20 seconds as they scramble to find some form of comfort and safety, yet in the video the adrenaline starts to wear off almost immediately because those things are already there.

I've played Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Penumbra, Amnesia, Alan Wake... I got edgy, angry and sometimes violent with my controlled. Do I feel scared, not even a bit, Minecraft startled me more. I would tear off the shelves in Anmesia to be able to throw it at them. It's still a game and I tried playing them in the dark with decently high sound. It's still a frigging game.

And the real kicker is that even the techniques that you mentioned about isolating the players from each other and mix-matching sensory inputs, the player will still be together, whether via online communication or even being in the same room. They will never be truly isolated from each other psychologically or physically, so they will never truly feel weakened. The only way to do so would be to directly sever any means of communication whatsoever between the players, and all that does is make a co-op game into a single player game that just so happens to have another player in the same game world, because the second player is utterly redundant to any feeling of horror that the game is trying to establish. Incidentally this is why even with a "right" friend for horror that the co-op is wasted, because why play with a friend if you're NOT going to interact with them?

And if you guys don't believe me, watch a horror movie (that you know can scare you) alone. Then watch it with another person with you. Even if that person is completely silent and unmoving throughout the entire epxerience (effectively acting like they're not there at all) the film will noticeably lose much of this horror capability simply because you will (consciously or unconsciously) know that there is someone else there who is sharing in the experience. Instead of every little creak and noise being the possible footsteps of some unseen monstrosity out to get you, one's brain will more likely attribute it to the other person/people there, as they are a known factor that is infinitely more likely to be the cause.

An horror movie that scare me? The only movie I can't watch because it messes my emotions is "Ghost Ship", and it's not because it scares me. And I've watched it alone, I wouldn't even watch it with my girlfriend. Also, solitude and isolation aren't the only powerless fear-inducing factors that exist in the whole wide world. Many victims were slain in front of other potential victims in movies, didn,t make it any less an horror movie.

In short, real horror is not a group sport. Any attempts at it are never going to come close to the scares that one will experience when truly alone because the very basis of how horror affects us best is predicated on the removal of the things that comfort us, and even the most insufferable, obnoxious person on Earth is universally more preferable than the horrors of the unknown.

No game or movie ever kept anyone scared. To achieve such feat would need the victim to actually STOP playing it forever, because it would be too scared to do it again. Instead, if anyone actually get jumpy, they'll pause, take a break, a leak, some drink in the fridge and come back for more... HEY! AREN'T THOSE COMFORT? Should we take our games into the woods with an empty fridge? You said it yourself "They will never be truly isolated from each other psychologically or physically, so they will never truly feel weakened." This is main reason we'd play horror games or any game, because YOU WON'T die trying. This situation is inexistant for a player. "as not even 5 seconds after the jump scare pops out and activates the player's fight-or-flight instinct (which could equally be done by your pet unexpectedly jumping into your lap in broad daylight), they're laughing. LAUGHING!" As some may drop out and leave their friend on their own, or both will drop out or take a minute before even recovering from their humiliation.

 

[The Heik]

The basic human nature also include egoism and greed. Exploited correctly, your ally may becomes your worst enemy. See WarZ and DayZ players behavior, yes they are games, but that's what we are still talking about. For a movie, see The Mist. An ally may also become an handicap which you'll have to defend so you are not left alone and weak. Some people who are more 'cooperative' and 'trustworthy' may not experience the horror like solo players, but there's plenty of way to exploit COOP in horror (I'm not saying to make a MMO, that actually skull-fuck ANY 'You are the hero who's gonna save us all!' game).

WarZ and DAyZ are not co-op games. They are multiplayer, where other players are expected to mess with you as often as work with you. That's part of those games' appeal in the survival genre. But if in a co-op game your fellow player(s) are more of a threat than the enemies, then the game's mechanics are fucked up because they are directly interfering with the game mode ie. working together to overcome obstacles. And if that is happening, why would anyone want to play that co-op?

Horror isn't all about being alone. Solitude isn't the only FEAR in the whole wide world. As you said, it's taking away the comfort. Threat to one of you is a threat to all group. Left 4 Dead may not be the most fear inducing game, but take a member out and the group starts to be a bit more edgy and careful, knowing their chance of survival to have diminished.

That bolded text is you making my point for me. The less you have the weaker you are, and the less players who are a part of the game the more tense and (though I hazard calling L4D this) scary the game is. That is exactly what solitude is about. No one there to help you through a situation, to help take down threats, to share in negative situations. This is also why co-op horror doesn't work, because the only times that games even start to feel tense is when one or more of the group aren't playing, and that is scarcely a fair deal to the left out player(s). Why not instead play singleplayer where you could just as easily get the same scares without requiring another person to be in the room twiddling their thumbs?

I've played Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Penumbra, Amnesia, Alan Wake... I got edgy, angry and sometimes violent with my controlled. Do I feel scared, not even a bit, Minecraft startled me more. I would tear off the shelves in Anmesia to be able to throw it at them. It's still a game and I tried playing them in the dark with decently high sound. It's still a frigging game.

So horror doesn't scare you. Congratulations, but that still doesn't mean that horror games don't scare other people.

An horror movie that scare me? The only movie I can't watch because it messes my emotions is "Ghost Ship", and it's not because it scares me. And I've watched it alone, I wouldn't even watch it with my girlfriend. Also, solitude and isolation aren't the only powerless fear-inducing factors that exist in the whole wide world. Many victims were slain in front of other potential victims in movies, didn,t make it any less an horror movie.

I refer thee again to the whole concept of "losing people leads to solitude", which again proves my point that being alone is far more scary than being in a group. And while solitude and isolation are not the only means to scare, they are among the primary means by which to scare someone because they rely on the player's own imagination creating the scares for them, because no one knows how to scare you better than you. Unfortunately, that doesn't get to happen when someone else starts commenting on the exact same horror situations. It's a bit of a mood killer.

No game or movie ever kept anyone scared. To achieve such feat would need the victim to actually STOP playing it forever, because it would be too scared to do it again. Instead, if anyone actually get jumpy, they'll pause, take a break, a leak, some drink in the fridge and come back for more... HEY! AREN'T THOSE COMFORT? Should we take our games into the woods with an empty fridge? You said it yourself "They will never be truly isolated from each other psychologically or physically, so they will never truly feel weakened." This is main reason we'd play horror games or any game, because YOU WON'T die trying. This situation is inexistant for a player. "as not even 5 seconds after the jump scare pops out and activates the player's fight-or-flight instinct (which could equally be done by your pet unexpectedly jumping into your lap in broad daylight), they're laughing. LAUGHING!" As some may drop out and leave their friend on their own, or both will drop out or take a minute before even recovering from their humiliation.

*facepalm* Ok, you are over-thinking this.

Yes, going out to the fridge and making a sandwich is a form of comfort, but then again, you are not playing the game at that point are you? Whilst you are playing the game, you are usually immersed in it, ie. you are placing your focus solely upon the events occurring in the game. While immersed you can pseudo-believe that these events are happening to you, and by that extent react to them accordingly. But if while playing the game you are thinking about going to the fridge to get something to eat, either you are very hungry or the game is doing a crappy job at keeping your focus.

And yes, in games no one is in any real danger, but a facsimile of that danger still exists to simulate a fear-inducing situation. That's what people usually play horror games for, in order for them to get the stimulation of the adrenaline high that comes from it. But again with another person that doesn't happen because having another player inherently reduces any form of tension by simply sharing in the experience.

 

[Kalahee]

WarZ and DAyZ are not co-op games. They are multiplayer, where other players are expected to mess with you as often as work with you. That's part of those games' appeal in the survival genre. But if in a co-op game your fellow player(s) are more of a threat than the enemies, then the game's mechanics are fucked up because they are directly interfering with the game mode ie. working together to overcome obstacles. And if that is happening, why would anyone want to play that co-op?

First, multiplayer isn't a genre. WarZ and DayZ may not be the best example of survival horror, you still can see how PvP is way more popular feature in all games than actual single player or cooperation is. The fact that another player may kill you plays on trust. Why would anyone want to play a COOP where the ally can be a threat, ask all those team killers and cheaters why they do it. Let's take the bridge level of Left 4 Dead or all Finals of it, in the end you do get the choice to escape on your own or leave your friend at his fate. it is still an exploitable outcome. It's a game, most people won't go over moral choices and may want to enjoy some douchebaggery.

That bolded text is you making my point for me. The less you have the weaker you are, and the less players who are a part of the game the more tense and (though I hazard calling L4D this) scary the game is. That is exactly what solitude is about. No one there to help you through a situation, to help take down threats, to share in negative situations. This is also why co-op horror doesn't work, because the only times that games even start to feel tense is when one or more of the group aren't playing, and that is scarcely a fair deal to the left out player(s). Why not instead play singleplayer where you could just as easily get the same scares without requiring another person to be in the room twiddling their thumbs?

You won't lose what you don't have first. So starting alone you are, as a player, aware that you are supposed to be able to get through on your own, otherwise it ain't a game. Playing L4D on your own is impossible, once you're pin down you're dead (exception of mutator that gets you up after some damages). Even if you are with someone, not some 20 heads public, it doesn't make it less that he's as much in deep shit as you are.

So horror doesn't scare you. Congratulations, but that still doesn't mean that horror games don't scare other people.

Point is not because an horror game doesn't scare means it ain't an horror game. As you said, we are all different.

I refer thee again to the whole concept of "losing people leads to solitude", which again proves my point that being alone is far more scary than being in a group. And while solitude and isolation are not the only means to scare, they are among the primary means by which to scare someone because they rely on the player's own imagination creating the scares for them, because no one knows how to scare you better than you. Unfortunately, that doesn't get to happen when someone else starts commenting on the exact same horror situations. It's a bit of a mood killer.

Twice the merrier, being two doesn't mean we feel secured and may even catch on the partner's fear/stress (or at least to mock him for a good laugh, which may turn you into a threat)

*facepalm* Ok, you are over-thinking this.

Yes, going out to the fridge and making a sandwich is a form of comfort, but then again, you are not playing the game at that point are you? Whilst you are playing the game, you are usually immersed in it, ie. you are placing your focus solely upon the events occurring in the game. While immersed you can pseudo-believe that these events are happening to you, and by that extent react to them accordingly. But if while playing the game you are thinking about going to the fridge to get something to eat, either you are very hungry or the game is doing a crappy job at keeping your focus.

So you are saying that school shootings really did happen because FPS genre made them violent, gun crazy and paranoid? Then maybe YOU are not playing your games right. The fact that I became violent with my controller because of a game means I'm doing it wrong.

And yes, in games no one is in any real danger, but a facsimile of that danger still exists to simulate a fear-inducing situation. That's what people usually play horror games for, in order for them to get the stimulation of the adrenaline high that comes from it. But again with another person that doesn't happen because having another player inherently reduces any form of tension by simply sharing in the experience.

Sorry to stay rational in emergency moments, and you say I'm over thinking this, all this time you were debating every single of my points saying that humans are social and would find comfort with someone next to him or speaking over voice, I'm using your own arguements.

Isn't thinking that an horror game should be single player and scary a bit narrow-minded? An horror game is just a different story genre, old Notre-Dame-de-Paris's Hunchback, Phantom of the Opera and Frankeinstein movies were considered horror. Peoples doesn't need to be scared to enjoy an horror game. Some get scared even by games that aren't scary. Because a game doesn't scare you it's not an horror game, why can't I just enjoy those kind of stories and the challenges they offer?

 

[The Heik]

WarZ and DAyZ are not co-op games. They are multiplayer, where other players are expected to mess with you as often as work with you. That's part of those games' appeal in the survival genre. But if in a co-op game your fellow player(s) are more of a threat than the enemies, then the game's mechanics are fucked up because they are directly interfering with the game mode ie. working together to overcome obstacles. And if that is happening, why would anyone want to play that co-op?

First, multiplayer isn't a genre. WarZ and DayZ may not be the best example of survival horror, you still can see how PvP is way more popular feature in all games than actual single player or cooperation is. The fact that another player may kill you plays on trust. Why would anyone want to play a COOP where the ally can be a threat, ask all those team killers and cheaters why they do it. Let's take the bridge level of Left 4 Dead or all Finals of it, in the end you do get the choice to escape on your own or leave your friend at his fate. it is still an exploitable outcome. It's a game, most people won't go over moral choices and may want to enjoy some douchebaggery.

See that bit of text I bolded and underlined in your quote of me? That is the genre I described. Please read through my post clearly before jumping off half cocked and calling me wrong. It'll save a lot of needless effort on both our parts.

As for the rest of this, you're just adding more proof as to why co-op and multiplayer are not suited to creating horror. When your team is more busy messing with each other and team-killing rather than continuing the game, any kind of fear or tension is kneecapped with Mjolnir.

That bolded text is you making my point for me. The less you have the weaker you are, and the less players who are a part of the game the more tense and (though I hazard calling L4D this) scary the game is. That is exactly what solitude is about. No one there to help you through a situation, to help take down threats, to share in negative situations. This is also why co-op horror doesn't work, because the only times that games even start to feel tense is when one or more of the group aren't playing, and that is scarcely a fair deal to the left out player(s). Why not instead play singleplayer where you could just as easily get the same scares without requiring another person to be in the room twiddling their thumbs?

You won't lose what you don't have first. So starting alone you are, as a player, aware that you are supposed to be able to get through on your own, otherwise it ain't a game. Playing L4D on your own is impossible, once you're pin down you're dead (exception of mutator that gets you up after some damages). Even if you are with someone, not some 20 heads public, it doesn't make it less that he's as much in deep shit as you are.

Are you honestly using the "you don't know what you got till it's gone" line on me?

Look, in most horror games you can fail. Heck in most games of any kind you can fail. Hell, in some cases seeing how long you can go before failing is the name of the game (tetris springs to mind). Victory is not a guaranteed outcome, it is simply possible, and depending on the difficulty and mechanics has varying levels of probability.

Just because you can win doesn't mean that you will the first time around. In fact the ability to lose is what makes winning so much more enjoyable. No risk, no reward as they say.

Besides, technically you DO lose those things when you play the game alone. No people around you, usually no means by which to protect oneself directly in the game, and rather than the familiar surroundings you are used to you have the eerie and disturbing settings of the game.

So horror doesn't scare you. Congratulations, but that still doesn't mean that horror games don't scare other people.

Point is not because an horror game doesn't scare means it ain't an horror game. As you said, we are all different.

No, it means that they are bad horror games, and as such not good representations of the horror genre. You don't use a guy with a leg cast and a pair of crutches set the benchmark for Olympic sprinting, and you don't use a game that can't scare it's target audience as a measure for a good horror game.

I refer thee again to the whole concept of "losing people leads to solitude", which again proves my point that being alone is far more scary than being in a group. And while solitude and isolation are not the only means to scare, they are among the primary means by which to scare someone because they rely on the player's own imagination creating the scares for them, because no one knows how to scare you better than you. Unfortunately, that doesn't get to happen when someone else starts commenting on the exact same horror situations. It's a bit of a mood killer.

Twice the merrier, being two doesn't mean we feel secured and may even catch on the partner's fear/stress (or at least to mock him for a good laugh, which may turn you into a threat)

Oh really? So you're saying that when you play with another player in the same room/same party you do not speak to or interact with them in any way, even in the game? Yeah, I'm going to call BS on that.

So long as two people are taking part in the same action (in this case playing a game), they have to interact with one another. Seeing as the most efficient way to do this is to use human speech, I'd consider a fairly safe bet that people are going to A) know what the other are doing and B) will want to work together with that information.

*facepalm* Ok, you are over-thinking this.

Yes, going out to the fridge and making a sandwich is a form of comfort, but then again, you are not playing the game at that point are you? Whilst you are playing the game, you are usually immersed in it, ie. you are placing your focus solely upon the events occurring in the game. While immersed you can pseudo-believe that these events are happening to you, and by that extent react to them accordingly. But if while playing the game you are thinking about going to the fridge to get something to eat, either you are very hungry or the game is doing a crappy job at keeping your focus.

So you are saying that school shootings really did happen because FPS genre made them violent, gun crazy and paranoid? Then maybe YOU are not playing your games right. The fact that I became violent with my controller because of a game means I'm doing it wrong.

........whadafuq?

Ok, one of two things has occurred here. Either your vocabulary is in dire need of beefing up, or you are smoking some mad-powerful stuff. I'm going to assume the former here, and thereby have to inform you that "pseudo-believe" means "fake-believe" as in not really, a facsimile of something. People don't really believe that are doing those things (unless they are mentally unstable), they are just losing themselves in the moment to get a feel of what it would be like. It's what thrill-junkies do.

And yes, in games no one is in any real danger, but a facsimile of that danger still exists to simulate a fear-inducing situation. That's what people usually play horror games for, in order for them to get the stimulation of the adrenaline high that comes from it. But again with another person that doesn't happen because having another player inherently reduces any form of tension by simply sharing in the experience.

Sorry to stay rational in emergency moments, and you say I'm over thinking this, all this time you were debating every single of my points saying that humans are social and would find comfort with someone next to him or speaking over voice, I'm using your own arguements.

No you are generally being a confusing individual, because using my arguments against me isn't doing anything but reinforcing my points unless you actually subvert or disprove them in some way, which to this point you haven't done.

As for the belief that humans are social beings, look around you right now. You are surrounded by the things we have as a result of people working together. If we were not inherently social, we wouldn't have complex languages and civilizations, because those are the result of people trying to communicate and work together.

And yet you think that two people playing co-op together won't result in some level of socialization?

Isn't thinking that an horror game should be single player and scary a bit narrow-minded? An horror game is just a different story genre, old Notre-Dame-de-Paris's Hunchback, Phantom of the Opera and Frankeinstein movies were considered horror. Peoples doesn't need to be scared to enjoy an horror game. Some get scared even by games that aren't scary. Because a game doesn't scare you it's not an horror game, why can't I just enjoy those kind of stories and the challenges they offer?

Not really. I wouldn't be narrow minded in expecting a first person shooter to be in first person perspective, and I wouldn't be narrow minded in expecting a horror game to contain some form of horrifying content. If it doesn't induce any horror, it has been mislabelled. As for the single-player aspect, if something doesn't work, it doesn't work. There's a reason why we don't use cars made of twix bars. And if a person can really get scared by things that are not scary to most everyone else, then they hardly need horror games do they?

Now if you enjoy a game, then good for you. But that doesn't change that if a horror game that doesn't horrify, then it is either a poor horror game, or it has been misrepresented by it's developers. It might be a game good game by other standards or perspectives, but it still does not achieve the primary representative feature that it was put out as.

Incidentally, who is still scared of Frankenstein? It's called "classical horror" now specifically because the scares it has doesn't work anymore due your average moviegoer being too well informed about monsters in general for them to really get scared.