Rebecca Black's new single.

[gyroscopeboy]

Paid for Time = Not professional.

Any artist/photographer/musician who makes 100% of their income from their craft is classed as a professional. In fact, as a photographer you only need to earn $20,000 of your total income from photography to join any professional accreditation and be considered "professional". The music industry is less controlled, but it still applies.

 

[Pyro Paul]

Special != Superior. You can't make up your own definitions.

Special
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/special

?adjective
1. of a distinct or particular kind or character: a special kind of key.
2. being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain: You'd better call the special number.
3. pertaining or peculiar to a particular person, thing, instance, etc.; distinctive; unique: the special features of a plan.
EXPAND
4. having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc.: a special messenger.
5. distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual: a special occasion; to fix something special.
6. extraordinary; exceptional, as in amount or degree; especial: special importance.
7. being such in an exceptional degree; particularly valued: a special friend.

Special
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/special

Definition of SPECIAL
1: distinguished by some unusual quality; especially : being in some way superior
2: held in particular esteem
3a : readily distinguishable from others of the same category : unique b : of, relating to, or constituting a species : specific
4: being other than the usual : additional, extra
5: designed for a particular purpose or occasion


so... for it not being the definition there are a lot of entries in its definition which kinda spell it out as meaning it. Even Merriam-Webster, the maker and publisher of one of the most widely accepted dictionaries in the world Define it specifically as such...

And even though this proves you wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt... you still continue to argue over something you're clearly wrong about.

That isn't how language works. You can't just go on making up your own definitions for words. If you want to use English that means you stick to the definitions in the English dictionary. The moment you stop doing that communication becomes useless because you could frankly mean anything with the words you use.

And a 'special case' almost never describes a superior case. It in fact is most commonly used to describe a case which is worse then the average case.

On top of that you completely disregard that specialize isn't the same as special. Specialize is a different word, with a different meaning. It's closely related but not the same. It carries additional meanings.

acctually that is how language works... well the english language to be particular. It is also one of the reasons why the english language is one of the most difficult languages to learn... because of the extensive usage of suffix and prefix.

now, you're not supposed to 'Stick' with the definition in the english dictionary because the english dictionary isn't an end-all-be-all... infact, the dictionary is only intended to help you spell words correctly. The meanings of the words are implicit through the context of which they are applied, and a dictionary is intended to make you understand the basic meaning of that word so that the context can better define it.

also.
'special case' means 'inferior'?
now who's making up definitions?

infact... i can't think of a single instance where 'special' is used to denote inferiority over something else. please enlighten me with an example of how 'special' means 'lesser'

Tours don't take time?
Any artist that has been on a tour spend time on it.
So I'm just going to say, like you are, that they were paid for their tour time, not their skills. Who cares about arguments! Silly little things, who needs those anyway! Let's just make statements that support my position!
Live performances? Paid for the time they spend on that, not for their skill!
Shows at a venue? Paid for their time!/sarcasm

it is obvious you know absolutely nothing about the entertainment buisness.

to get a tour, show, performance going, the individual has to go to the intended the venue, concert hall, theater, or town (if set up in an open field, such as woodstock was) and Pay THEM for the alotted time for their performance.

now sure, you can get invited to a particular venue where you can do your show for free, but that isn't the norm. Every time you see some one on stage... They are paying for that.

so how do they get money off this?
Ticket Sales.

so quiet litterally, their profit is based on the number of people that want to come listen to them... or instead, they are paid for the skill they have, not for the time they put in.

The problem you're having is that you can't counter my argument and you're too blind to your own little incorrect definition that you can't admit that you are wrong.

Professional denotes a high level of skill or quality. Period.
Professional Theif, Professional Killer, Professional Grade, Professional Product, Professional Construction, Professional Singer.

to call Rebecca Black a 'Professional' is tatamount to admitting mental retardation.

She sings... (rather horribly) and makes money off of it.
she isn't attracting the masses for her good looks or beautiful voice...
she is being exploited by other people to make a quick buck off of her misfortion.

 

[Pyro Paul]

Paid for Time = Not professional.

Any artist/photographer/musician who makes 100% of their income from their craft is classed as a professional. In fact, as a photographer you only need to earn $20,000 of your total income from photography to join any professional accreditation and be considered "professional". The music industry is less controlled, but it still applies.

meh... sorta?

Accreditted Photographers just require credentials from reputable sources then take that to an offical outlet and hope they accept you. Granted if you're able to say that you can reliably get $20,000 a year off of your photography it can more easily get you accreditation, it is hardly a requirement.

 

[Low Key]

The song isn't actually that bad when comparing it to her only other work. Going further into music as whole and she's pretty meh. You can tell her new song got the autotune treatment, but it's not as pronounced. And at least the video had some thought and direction put into it.

 

[Hagi]

Special != Superior. You can't make up your own definitions.

Special
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/special

?adjective
1. of a distinct or particular kind or character: a special kind of key.
2. being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain: You'd better call the special number.
3. pertaining or peculiar to a particular person, thing, instance, etc.; distinctive; unique: the special features of a plan.
EXPAND
4. having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc.: a special messenger.
5. distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual: a special occasion; to fix something special.
6. extraordinary; exceptional, as in amount or degree; especial: special importance.
7. being such in an exceptional degree; particularly valued: a special friend.

Special
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/special

Definition of SPECIAL
1: distinguished by some unusual quality; especially : being in some way superior
2: held in particular esteem
3a : readily distinguishable from others of the same category : unique b : of, relating to, or constituting a species : specific
4: being other than the usual : additional, extra
5: designed for a particular purpose or occasion

You see all those other definitions you're ignoring? They also count.....

Special is not the same as superior. Superior is one, but not the only, form of special. All those other definitions also count as special.

As I said before, if you're superior then you're special. But if you're not superior then it doesn't automatically mean you're not special. That's logic 101.

so... for it not being the definition there are a lot of entries in its definition which kinda spell it out as meaning it. Even Merriam-Webster, the maker and publisher of one of the most widely accepted dictionaries in the world Define it specifically as such...

And even though this proves you wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt... you still continue to argue over something you're clearly wrong about.

We're not talking about the definition of special here. Which I'm not wrong about anyway since you're ignoring all the other definitions you yourself quoted.

We're talking about professional. I gave you it's definition some posts back. You ignored it and replaced it with your own made-up definition. I'll give you the definition again:

"participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs "

Rebecca Black is making money of something many people engage in as a hobby. She's a professional. That definition is from your own lauded Merriam-Webster.

That's a definition of professional. Rebecca Black matches that definition. She's a professional. Simple as that.

acctually that is how language works... well the english language to be particular. It is also one of the reasons why the english language is one of the most difficult languages to learn... because of the extensive usage of suffix and prefix.

now, you're not supposed to 'Stick' with the definition in the english dictionary because the english dictionary isn't an end-all-be-all... infact, the dictionary is only intended to help you spell words correctly. The meanings of the words are implicit through the context of which they are applied, and a dictionary is intended to make you understand the basic meaning of that word so that the context can better define it.

also.
'special case' means 'inferior'?
now who's making up definitions?

infact... i can't think of a single instance where 'special' is used to denote inferiority over something else. please enlighten me with an example of how 'special' means 'lesser'

I gave you an example. "Special case". It wasn't a definition, it was an example.

A special case is commonly (not always, as I said before) used for cases that are inferior to the average case. Not superior. Special does apply to superior, but it's not the only thing it applies to. As shown by all those additional definitions of special you quoted yourself.

And the dictionary is the end-all-be-all in disputes like this. Words need a definition. When a definition is in dispute like it is currently we need a common source so that we both know to what we are referring when using that word. A dictionary is the only thing that can provide that.

When there's no dispute then you can allow words to be defined purely by their context, but in disputed situations like this you need to explicitly define words. Look at any scientific article, extraordinary care is spend defining words in order to avoid disputes over semantics.

it is obvious you know absolutely nothing about the entertainment buisness.

to get a tour, show, performance going, the individual has to go to the intended the venue, concert hall, theater, or town (if set up in an open field, such as woodstock was) and Pay THEM for the alotted time for their performance.

now sure, you can get invited to a particular venue where you can do your show for free, but that isn't the norm. Every time you see some one on stage... They are paying for that.

so how do they get money off this?
Ticket Sales.

so quiet litterally, their profit is based on the number of people that want to come listen to them... or instead, they are paid for the skill they have, not for the time they put in.

The problem you're having is that you can't counter my argument and you're too blind to your own little incorrect definition that you can't admit that you are wrong.

Professional denotes a high level of skill or quality. Period.
Professional Theif, Professional Killer, Professional Grade, Professional Product, Professional Construction, Professional Singer.

to call Rebecca Black a 'Professional' is tatamount to admitting mental retardation.

She sings... (rather horribly) and makes money off of it.
she isn't attracting the masses for her good looks or beautiful voice...
she is being exploited by other people to make a quick buck off of her misfortion.

How is that different from her Youtube vid?

She paid to get that video up. The only way she gets money is by people wanting to listen to her song.

By your own words she's being paid for her skill. The time spent recording she paid for herself, she didn't receive money for that. As you say: "their profit is based on the number of people that want to come listen to them". So by your own words, she's a professional. It matches exactly what you said.

And thanks for the personal insults. It's always nice when your person instead of your arguments are attacked. If you can't counter my arguments then just don't reply, don't start attacking my person.

 

[Pyro Paul]

infact... i can't think of a single instance where 'special' is used to denote inferiority over something else. please enlighten me with an example of how 'special' means 'lesser'

I gave you an example. "Special case". It wasn't a definition, it was an example.

A special case is commonly (not always, as I said before) used for cases that are inferior to the average case. Not superior. Special does apply to superior, but it's not the only thing it applies to. As shown by all those additional definitions of special you quoted yourself.
[/quote]

When i ask what do you mean and for examples, you are supposed to reply with some sort of evidence or clarification on the matter.

Because you don't, it means your Wrong.
your statement is incorrect consistantly.

no point in arguing with a person that is constantly wrong and skits around a subject like a troll.

so. washes hands of it.

 

[Hagi]

When i ask what do you mean and for examples, you are supposed to reply with some sort of evidence or clarification on the matter.

Because you don't, it means your Wrong.
your statement is incorrect consistantly.

no point in arguing with a person that is constantly wrong and skits around a subject like a troll.

so. washes hands of it.

Yes... let's quote only a single part of my post and provide that as evidence that I'm wrong.

I'll give you again:

Definition of professional:
"participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs [a professional golfer]"

Rebecca Black is making money of something many people engage in as a hobby. She's a professional. It's not complicated.

 

[Pyro Paul]

When i ask what do you mean and for examples, you are supposed to reply with some sort of evidence or clarification on the matter.

Because you don't, it means your Wrong.
your statement is incorrect consistantly.

no point in arguing with a person that is constantly wrong and skits around a subject like a troll.

so. washes hands of it.

Yes... let's quote only a single part of my post and provide that as evidence that I'm wrong.

I'll give you again:

Definition of professional:
"participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs [a professional golfer]"

Rebecca Black is making money of something many people engage in as a hobby. She's a professional. It's not complicated.

Performance art is not a hobby.
she is not gaining a living off of it (all checks are cashed to her mother)
she is not even all that good.

she is getting famous because people are exploiting her and subjecting her to negative content which she shouldn't of been subjected to in the first place.

but what ever, believe what you want.
call her a 'professional'...

 

[Hagi]

Performance art is not a hobby.

As evidenced by things like Karaoke and youtube videos...

I mean seriously? These are the arguments you're now resorting to?

she is not gaining a living off of it (all checks are cashed to her mother)

And her living isn't in any way or form provided from that same source?

Her mother pays for her living, with money earned by her videos. She's earning her own living.

And no matter who cashes the check, she is still the one earning that money.

she is not even all that good.

which is completely irrelevant to the issue.

she is getting famous because people are exploiting her and subjecting her to negative content which she shouldn't of been subjected to in the first place.

but what ever, believe what you want.
call her a 'professional'...

Yes I am calling her a professional because that's what she is.

Now I'm sorry if that offends your superior sensibilities because it's applied to a person you don't approve of but that's the way definitions work. They don't care about your personal sensibilities.

 

[Yosato]

Anyoen else notice that there are guitar and bass players at the beginning who seem to be strumming nothing at all?

 

[The Lawn]

Another piece of gobshite that will clog up the intertubes for a week before it gets old and inevitably forgotten by winter.

I don't however, feel sorry for her at all. The same kind of backlash happened with that Friday rubbish.

Anyway! To add some artistic value to this thread here's a good song.
Edit: Bad video thing.... wouldn't link.

 

[Acier]

The only thing we've really learned from Rebecca Black is that if you're rich enough, you too can be a 'musician! Training/talent, pff. She is everything that plagues the music industry right now.

Right now? Have you never heard of song poems? People collect those records. You didn't even have to be rich.

 

[Pyro Paul]

Now I'm sorry if that offends your superior sensibilities because it's applied to a person you don't approve of but that's the way definitions work. They don't care about your personal sensibilities.

No, the way you weild your 'knowledge', or lack there of, is what offends me.

You google up or dictionary.com a word and use it as absolute fact completely disregarding the Rules of the English Language in the process.

Then instead of comprehending, you fight it.

'Special meaning inferior'? Really?
Even though every single definition, every single usage, every single description in the english language of the word is used to denote 'of higher quality' you pull this out of no where and don't explain even where it came from? Even the few contrived instances you could argue as to it meaning 'inferior' are incorrect usage and only negative through implicit means rather then directly having a negative meaning.

but you know what?
lets just kill the argument this way.

PROFESSIONAL EMPLOYEE
(12) The term "professional employee" means -
(a) any employee engaged in work (i) predominantly intellectual and varied in character as opposed to routine mental, manual, mechanical, or physical work; (ii) involving the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment in its performance; (iii) of such a character that the output produced or the result accomplished cannot be standardized in relation to a given period of time; (iv) requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study in an institution of higher learning or a hospital, as distinguished from a general academic education or from an apprenticeship or from training in the performance of routine mental, manual, or physical processes; or (b) any employee, who (i) has completed the courses of specialized intellectual instruction and study described in clause (iv) of paragraph (a), and (ii) is performing related work under the supervision of a professional person to qualify himself to become a professional employee as defined in paragraph (a).

Title 29 United States Code, Sec. 152.

i'll probably cringe in the manner which you try and mutilate this definition to fit your own idea... but what the hell. take a swing at it.

 

[Hagi]

Now I'm sorry if that offends your superior sensibilities because it's applied to a person you don't approve of but that's the way definitions work. They don't care about your personal sensibilities.

No, the way you weild your 'knowledge', or lack there of, is what offends me.

You google up or dictionary.com a word and use it as absolute fact completely disregarding the Rules of the English Language in the process.

Then instead of comprehending, you fight it.

'Special meaning inferior'? Really?
Even though every single definition, every single usage, every single description in the english language of the word is used to denote 'of higher quality' you pull this out of no where and don't explain even where it came from? Even the few contrived instances you could argue as to it meaning 'inferior' are incorrect usage and only negative through implicit means rather then directly having a negative meaning.

but you know what?
lets just kill the argument this way.

PROFESSIONAL EMPLOYEE
(12) The term "professional employee" means -
(a) any employee engaged in work (i) predominantly intellectual and varied in character as opposed to routine mental, manual, mechanical, or physical work; (ii) involving the consistent exercise of discretion and judgment in its performance; (iii) of such a character that the output produced or the result accomplished cannot be standardized in relation to a given period of time; (iv) requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or learning customarily acquired by a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study in an institution of higher learning or a hospital, as distinguished from a general academic education or from an apprenticeship or from training in the performance of routine mental, manual, or physical processes; or (b) any employee, who (i) has completed the courses of specialized intellectual instruction and study described in clause (iv) of paragraph (a), and (ii) is performing related work under the supervision of a professional person to qualify himself to become a professional employee as defined in paragraph (a).

Title 29 United States Code, Sec. 152.

i'll probably cringe in the manner which you try and mutilate this definition to fit your own idea... but what the hell. take a swing at it.

It's music. An artistic medium. It can't be standardized.

You can't make a standard out of a human voice like you can with manufactured products.

Even if heavily auto-tuned there's no such thing as a standard human voice. Nor is there such a thing as standard lyrics. Even if they're both horrible they're still not standardized.

And there's definitely no such thing as standardized music or art, that's the whole point of art. That it's not standardized. It an expression of emotion. No matter how horrible the expression and how shallow the emotion.

And disregarding the rules of the English language? Really? Written language has 2 parts to it rules:
- Semantics: the meaning of individual words, or definitions.
- Grammar: the way individual words can be combined into sentences.

I'm simply following the rules of semantics. A word has a definition. It's not difficult.

I've given you the definition of professional before, it's not incomprehensible. Just follow that definition to it's logical conclusion instead of coming up with increasingly irrelevant other issues.

 

[frans909]

vocal-only singers are musicians too. It doesn't make a difference whether or not he can also play an instrument.

If you're counting Justin Bieber as a musician, then there's no reason you can't call Rebecca Black a musician.

Sure, and you can call someone who whistles yankee doodle a musician too.

:facepalm:

 

[CODE-D]

prefer nappa
<youtube=KOqIngh_-_A>

 

[zehydra]

vocal-only singers are musicians too. It doesn't make a difference whether or not he can also play an instrument.

If you're counting Justin Bieber as a musician, then there's no reason you can't call Rebecca Black a musician.

Sure, and you can call someone who whistles yankee doodle a musician too.

:facepalm:

my point was that using your voice (well) can be as difficult as mastering an instrument.

You're a musician if you make music. That's it. It's kind of like with the label of "gamer".

However, a GOOD musician is either someone who comes up with creative, original songs, or someone who performs music VERY WELL.

Someone who whistles yankee doodle isn't really showing off their greatest vocal skills. However, if someone whistled Rush's YYZ with perfect pitch, THAT'd be impressive.

Only those who have never really tried to sing fail to understand that the voice is basically another instrument.

 

[alandavidson]

Snip

My God, what is this awful noise in my ears? Oh right, it's produced by Victor Records. The only good bands they've produced are Hawthorne Heights and Straylight Run.

 

[Pyro Paul]

PROFESSIONAL EMPLOYEE
(12) The term "professional employee" means -
any employee engaged in work of such a character that the output produced or the result accomplished cannot be standardized in relation to a given period of time

It's music. An artistic medium. It can't be standardized.

You can't make a standard out of a human voice like you can with manufactured products.

Even if heavily auto-tuned there's no such thing as a standard human voice. Nor is there such a thing as standard lyrics. Even if they're both horrible they're still not standardized.

And there's definitely no such thing as standardized music or art, that's the whole point of art. That it's not standardized. It an expression of emotion. No matter how horrible the expression and how shallow the emotion.

And disregarding the rules of the English language? Really? Written language has 2 parts to it rules:
- Semantics: the meaning of individual words, or definitions.
- Grammar: the way individual words can be combined into sentences.

I'm simply following the rules of semantics. A word has a definition. It's not difficult.

I've given you the definition of professional before, it's not incomprehensible. Just follow that definition to it's logical conclusion instead of coming up with increasingly irrelevant other issues.

Incorrect.
Cherry picking a single word out of a sentence to define the rest of the statement is now how the english language works.

see, if you understood basic english
'...standardized in relation to...'
is a statement and should be considered as a whole.
As to its meaning... well that means that the individual would not be able to reach the 'standard' in alotted time required for it to be accomplished.

as for ' no such thing as standardized music ' statement...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A440_(pitch_standard)

yes... yes it can be. and it has.
Codified by the International Organization for Standardization title 16 'Acoustics -- standard tuning frequency (standard musical pitch)'

It is funny because you say you're following the rules of Semantics (although semantics don't define words, they help you understand the meaning beind words and statements) and do so by completely disregarding Grammar (the rules of which language is built on).

yes, you've given your definition of professional.
and i've stated it is wrong and provided another conflicting definition which is supported by the United States Code of Law.

I then went on to argue against the point of the definition to disprove it:
Professional Grade, Professional Criminal, Professional Resume... all of which don't get paid.
Dismantling the word to its base meaning, professional>Person of Profession>Person of a vocation that requires skill/training.
Professional Certification (photography, computer repair, automotive maintance).
base definition Profession paid for Skill > Occupation paid for Time (supported that the artist has to pay for the time to use a stage, concert hall, or even recording studio)

and yet, you disregard all of these and argue semantics over individual words in each statement.

i'm sure again, you'll argue the fininte meaning of 'certification' or something.

 

[gyroscopeboy]

Its just as bad. Sure she doesn't sound as nasally but what wonders editing can do.

I'm sure it sounds just like this when you take that fancy crap out.

Haha thats super fucking awesome!

A producer I do a lot of work for could pretty much mould that into an actually believable vocal performance..such is the power of Melodyn and Protools.