Recent Captain America comic reveal is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time

[Redd the Sock]

If they're doing this just to get people to read the comic... that's pretty despicable. Hopefully this will be one of those things that gets retconned away and forgotten. Goddamnit Marvel, what the hell?!

I don't think it's even that. There was no big press release beforehand, no conversations with retailers to order in extra issue (the way DC did with Rebirth, etc) because it was gonna generate controversy and sell extra issues, etc.

It just seems to be a basic "Good guy is manipulated and turned evil, good guy breaks free, good guy punches bad guy in face" storyline that social media went crazy with.

Red Skull turned Cap evil(ish) 2 years ago in Axis. 3 years before that in Captain America Rebirth Captain was brainwashed into fighting for Red Skull until he was freed by the actions of other heroes.

"Captain America is brainwashed or manipulated into thinking he's Hydra" isn't some radical new storyline that they are trying to use to draw in sales, it's a basic concept that they use a lot (and not just with Cap, but certainly with him too) that has people randomly flipping out this time for no real reason.

It can be a bit more forward thinking that that. This will now get a second printing (and more) to meet the demand, and that always looks good in the press. The push to digital sales no doubt is also in mind. Moreover, now it's a mystery and the hope is people will hang around to see how it works out, so you get a few months of improved sales while the arc plays out. Will is work out that way. In this case I doubt it. Newer readership seems pissed off and older readership is counting ways they can get out of it. I'll take the longshot bet that they're fulling ripping off The Crossing (the story where Iron Man was revealed to be working for Kang all along) and they'll solve it by bringing in a younger uncorrupted Cap from the past to fight his evil older self. Yeah, it's depressing to think that even if they go through with this it's been done before.

Crap, now I've caught the parallel. Cap kills Jack Flag, last seen during the post Annihilation run on Guardians of the Galaxy, to show us he's evil. Iron Man killed Rita DeMara (a female Yellowjacket) who had been a member of the original Guardians of the Galaxy to show us he's evil. Damnit Marvel. Don't let my insane theories be right.

 

[Orga777]

Yeah. This is hands down the worst thing ever conceived for any major comic book character in history. This is worse than Spider-Man's deal with Mephisto. Talk about taking their own personal politics way too far. Nick Spencer is an ass hole, and when this book is universally hated and sells like complete garbage after the first issue, he will be gone faster than any writer before him, and Marvel will have to deal with severe damage control. It is already bad enough with the crap they are pulling with Civil War II and their idiocy of taking good ideas and running them into the ground at an almost insane pace that it is any wonder that nobody reads comic books any longer? Both DC and Marvel SUCK at setting up comic books and what to do with their characters now.

God damn... Captain America is an agent of freaking Hydra... Look, America is not perfect and will never be perfect. Donald Trump will come and go. However, Captain America is not about America as it is. He is what America SHOULD strive to be. It is the pure ideal of America that embodies Steve Rogers as a character. He has fought against the US government over and over again if it doesn't mesh with his pure ideals. For heaven's sake, he lifted Mjolnir before! How the HELL do you justify THAT if he was secretly working for Hydra the whole god damn time?! This is a total contradiction to everything the character stands for and it will never really be undone. His character is forever tarnished beyond repair. Just like with Spider-Man's deal with the devil. Nothing will ever be the same for them ever again, even if Marvel completely ignores this going forward when it will clearly hit the fan. The damage is done. For shame. The whole company should be completely ashamed of themselves for such an insulting ploy to sell books. It almost makes we wish for the dark-ages of the 90s to come back. At least a handful of storylines were good back then.

 

[Overhead]

It can be a bit more forward thinking that that. This will now get a second printing (and more) to meet the demand, and that always looks good in the press. The push to digital sales no doubt is also in mind. Moreover, now it's a mystery and the hope is people will hang around to see how it works out, so you get a few months of improved sales while the arc plays out. Will is work out that way.

Which were only concerns if this was intentional. As explained, it doesn't seem like this was the case.

In this case I doubt it. Newer readership seems pissed off and older readership is counting ways they can get out of it.

People who don't read comics are pissed off. People who do read comics know that the status quo will be returned to at the end of the arc.

I'll take the longshot bet that they're fulling ripping off The Crossing (the story where Iron Man was revealed to be working for Kang all along) and they'll solve it by bringing in a younger uncorrupted Cap from the past to fight his evil older self. Yeah, it's depressing to think that even if they go through with this it's been done before.

I'll take your bet and say this isn't the case. For our wager, how about whoever is wrong suspends their accoutn and never posts in these forums again?

Crap, now I've caught the parallel. Cap kills Jack Flag, last seen during the post Annihilation run on Guardians of the Galaxy, to show us he's evil. Iron Man killed Rita DeMara (a female Yellowjacket) who had been a member of the original Guardians of the Galaxy to show us he's evil. Damnit Marvel. Don't let my insane theories be right.

He doesn't kill Jack Flagg, he kicks him out the aircraft and it implies he's dead without actually showing us this is the case. In comic book terms this gives him a 99% chance to be alive. Hell, even if he'd hit the ground and splattered like a pizza there'd still be about a 75% chance he's somehow still alive because it was actually an LMD or whatever.

 

[Overhead]

Yeah. This is hands down the worst thing ever conceived for any major comic book character in history. This is worse than Spider-Man's deal with Mephisto. Talk about taking their own personal politics way too far. Nick Spencer is an ass hole, and when this book is universally hated and sells like complete garbage after the first issue, he will be gone faster than any writer before him, and Marvel will have to deal with severe damage control. It is already bad enough with the crap they are pulling with Civil War II and their idiocy of taking good ideas and running them into the ground at an almost insane pace that it is any wonder that nobody reads comic books any longer? Both DC and Marvel SUCK at setting up comic books and what to do with their characters now.

God damn... Captain America is an agent of freaking Hydra... Look, America is not perfect and will never be perfect. Donald Trump will come and go. However, Captain America is not about America as it is. He is what America SHOULD strive to be. It is the pure ideal of America that embodies Steve Rogers as a character. He has fought against the US government over and over again if it doesn't mesh with his pure ideals. For heaven's sake, he lifted Mjolnir before! How the HELL do you justify THAT if he was secretly working for Hydra the whole god damn time?! This is a total contradiction to everything the character stands for and it will never really be undone. His character is forever tarnished beyond repair. Just like with Spider-Man's deal with the devil. Nothing will ever be the same for them ever again, even if Marvel completely ignores this going forward when it will clearly hit the fan. The damage is done. For shame. The whole company should be completely ashamed of themselves for such an insulting ploy to sell books. It almost makes we wish for the dark-ages of the 90s to come back.

Yes, this is clearly some new and awful thing that has never happened before and now ruins the character forever.

Oh wait no, Captain America turning into an Evil Nazi is something that has happened a bajillion times before. So on what basis can you claim that this ruins the character? Surely if you like and are familiar with this character, you'd be aware this is a common plotline already and his character was already "tarnished beyond repair" when you enjoyed him just a few months ago (supposing you do actually read comics and aren't just randomly complaining).

 

[Orga777]

People who don't read comics are pissed off. People who do read comics know that the status quo will be returned to at the end of the arc.

According to idiot writer Nick Spencer, that is not going to be the case. He has gone completely against that notion very hardcore almost instantly. He wants this to effect EVERYTHING going forward for years to come. You want to know why I think this might not be undone? The same reason Spider-Man making a deal with Marvel Satan didn't get undone. Nobody at Marvel gives a damn about what the fans want, and haven't for some time. It is pride and a know better attitude that ruined the character. It took Spider-Man sales quite a while to rebound back from that AWFUL choice, in and of itself. Heck, considering the one off Renew Your Vows sold amazingly well is proof that people are still not over that idiocy shows how out of touch Marvel is with its own core fanbase. This is most easily a dumber choice than even Spidey's though. Especially since Captain America movies are so in the public focus now. The character has a lot more exposure than ever before, and even non fans know what Captain America is supposed to be. Look, there are really dumb things for every character at one point or another that just don't work. However, nothing this egregious. When it is THIS bad and get THIS much exposure, Marvel might be hamstrung just because of that. Even if they do fix this, the damage is done. The same can be said for Spider-Man and his deal with Mephisto. This is just really, really dumb. Not even DC has had such a botched handling of a major character of this magnitude. Even with how badly they handled Superman in the comics during New 52 is beyond better than this in every single way. The fact that Marvel has had two flagship characters go through such IDIOCY in such a short time frame I just doubt their competency at this point.

Also, nice try Overhead. But mind control and other idiocy isn't the same thing as this. Especially since the dipshit writer of this travesty has said that this is the status quo now and will forever lead the way into the next few years of what is to come. This isn't just some idiot mindcontrol plot or whatever other obvious quick change that is barely ever brought up again. This is going back all the way to the beginning of the character and saying he was part of Hydra all along. This is changing to the fundamental level of a character to make an impact in both the story and the real world. Spencer WANTS this to impact everything. The way he is talking, this isn't some stupid throw-away comic book plot-line, but a plot-line that is supposedly a big deal for a long time. All I have to say to that is SCREW THAT!

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Got nothing to really add to the conversation, just thought the thread might need to be lightened up a bit. A joke goes a long way.

Deadpool should have said, "I never had Cancer"

 

[Overhead]

According to idiot writer Nick Spencer, that is not going to be the case. He has gone completely against that notion very hardcore almost instantly. He wants this to effect EVERYTHING going forward for years to come.

Do you have the quote of what he supposedly said? Pretty sure you've misunderstood.

You want to know why I think this might not be undone? The same reason Spider-Man making a deal with Marvel Satan didn't get undone. Nobody at Marvel gives a damn about what the fans want, and haven't for some time. It is pride and a know better attitude that ruined the character.

They didn't decide to change Spider-man into the Zodiac Killer, they got rid of his marriage. When Spider-man last turned evil (Superior Spider-man) they turned him back, because that's what you do when people turn evil.

It took Spider-Man sales quite a while to rebound back from that AWFUL choice, in and of itself.

No, sales were pretty much on par with where they were normally afterwards. Your confusion might be that OMD itself sold really well due to the publicity of the storyline itself and Spider-man 3. Once those died down, sales were where they normally were, not lower - around 70K.

Heck, considering the one off Renew Your Vows sold amazingly well is proof that people are still not over that idiocy shows how out of touch Marvel is with its own core fanbase.

It was a 4 issue limited series and only the first issue sold better than normal. The fact that the other 3 issues sold as well as a normal spidey comic indicates that people were buying it as a potential investment. If it turned out that was the comic where they brought Peter and MJ back together, it could be an easy way to make $30 on ebay.

Especially since Captain America movies are so in the public focus now. The character has a lot more exposure than ever before, and even non fans know what Captain America is supposed to be. Look, there are really dumb things for every character at one point or another that just don't work. However, nothing this egregious. When it is THIS bad and get THIS much exposure, Marvel might be hamstrung just because of that. Even if they do fix this, the damage is done. The same can be said for Spider-Man and his deal with Mephisto. This is just really, really dumb. Not even DC has had such a botched handling of a major character of this magnitude. Even with how badly they handled Superman in the comics during New 52 is beyond better than this in every single way. The fact that Marvel has had two flagship characters go through such IDIOCY in such a short time frame I just doubt their competency at this point.

There is nothing whatsoever inherent;y wrong with the storyline. You call it ideocy, but you haven't put forward a single actual criticism of why it's bad.

Not to mention that you are downright wrong. it's not a matter of opinion. When you say stuff like "nothing this egregious" has been done before, you are factually wrong seeing as just in the post above I provided half a dozen images of exactly this story being carried out before. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[EternallyBored]

snip

This is the interview he's talking about:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/25/captain-america-villain-hydra-nick-spencer-tom-brevoort?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

Its the standard comic book, "we're super serious this time" line. The author insists its the real Steve Rogers, no mind control, but it conveniently leaves out stuff like time travel, rewritten memories, or any number of other explanations, so still pretty open to most proposed explanations. That's if its not just a straight up lie ala Slott's assuring us that Superior Spiderman would be the new permanent Spiderman.

 

[Redd the Sock]

snip

Don't get me wrong here. I'm being silly because I hope Marvel doesn't do something to basic as "double agent" or "mind control" to get out of this when they decide to. There are just so many ways this story's been done before and I'd like to see something more original than LMDs. Besides, that's what Z-listers are for: to die in place of heroes that sell books.

Also I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to who is mad about this since I was privy to a lot of younger readers that though cap's post Civil War death was for real and forever, so I can see the same "not jaded yet" element here.

 

[Overhead]

snip

This is the interview he's talking about:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/25/captain-america-villain-hydra-nick-spencer-tom-brevoort?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

Its the standard comic book, "we're super serious this time" line. The author insists its the real Steve Rogers, no mind control, but it conveniently leaves out stuff like time travel, rewritten memories, or any number of other explanations, so still pretty open to most proposed explanations. That's if its not just a straight up lie ala Slott's assuring us that Superior Spiderman would be the new permanent Spiderman.

Yeah, I thought that was probably what he was referencing and they've left themselves massive leeway in how they explain this and it's nothing at all like what he claim.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm being silly because I hope Marvel doesn't do something to basic as "double agent" or "mind control" to get out of this when they decide to. There are just so many ways this story's been done before and I'd like to see something more original than LMDs.

How exactly they do the return to status quo doesn't really have much to do with the quality of the story. Regardless of whether it's telepathy or reality manipulation or time travel that caused him to be this way, it's what happens now he's been manipulated that makes it a good story or not.

Besides, that's what Z-listers are for: to die in place of heroes that sell books.

Not really. Side characters have lots of uses and sometimes it's specifically the main character which does die because that what gives meaningful resonance rather than "Oh no, background character #27 died". See: The Death of Captain America.

Also I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to who is mad about this since I was privy to a lot of younger readers that though cap's post Civil War death was for real and forever, so I can see the same "not jaded yet" element here.

You say "the benefit of the doubt" like it's a toss-up. Telepathic red skull has already bragged about manipulating Captain America and using him in his schemes. We know there's some kind of manipulation going on.

 

[Rain Gass]

I was referring mostly to the people you were quoting. And what abuse? All I've seen so far is people mocking the decision by coming up with their own stupid plot twists. And I'm not hostile or unhinged. You don't know me.

And you don't know me, yet you still felt it necessary to take a jab at me in your initial response in a completely unnecessarily hostile manner. I don't need to know you to see that your initial post to me came off as hostile and insulting, the fact that you are now getting weirdly defensive over such mild criticism isn't helping either.

Also, if you are referring to people I'm quoting then quote them, not me, you have a new account so maybe you don't know how it works here, you get notification when someone quotes you, generally people take that as indication that you are talking about them. When you said, "It's cute how you think you're smarter than everyone else because you read comic books." was that not referring to me? You quoted me, so the general assumption around here would be that you were talking to and referring to me.

As for abuse, check out the author's Twitter, or some of the other comic book sites around, there are people calling the author an anti-semite, or declaring that Captain America is ruined forever, the comics fandom can be kind of overreactionary at times, but there seem to be a lot of people who've never read the comic or care about Captain America outside the MCU or something else, that have decided to yell their opinions angrily based on seeing a single comic panel in the first issue of a reboot series. Making jokes or just generally thinking its stupid isn't worth commenting on, some of the jokes coming out of this are even pretty funny, but some people seem to think this is some terrible unprecedented low bar for comics, or Captain America, but its not.

You're right. I'm sorry.

 

[Politrukk]

Spoilers be ahead.

<spoiler= So it was just revealed that>So it was just revealed that Captain America has been a member of Hydra for DECADES. Ever since he was a child. Apparently, his mother was recruited into Hydra when he was a boy.

http://rnmiz43724.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/17747iF58128D943C1EA17/image-size/original?v=v2&px=-1

The next few series are going to be about Cap keeping his allegiances secret, with only him and the readers knowing he is an agent of Hydra. Yeah, even Hydra doesn't know he's part of Hydra

Am I the only one who thinks this is fucking stupid? Is it just me?

Holy shit, I thought Civil War II was a shoddy decision, but this just takes the cake.

Civil War II happened... what?

Jesus I've been out of touch.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

Well...it will sell comics, which was the goal, I guess.

But that is just...mind-numbingly stupid.

 

[Overhead]

Spoilers be ahead.

<spoiler= So it was just revealed that>So it was just revealed that Captain America has been a member of Hydra for DECADES. Ever since he was a child. Apparently, his mother was recruited into Hydra when he was a boy.

http://rnmiz43724.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/17747iF58128D943C1EA17/image-size/original?v=v2&px=-1

The next few series are going to be about Cap keeping his allegiances secret, with only him and the readers knowing he is an agent of Hydra. Yeah, even Hydra doesn't know he's part of Hydra

Am I the only one who thinks this is fucking stupid? Is it just me?

Holy shit, I thought Civil War II was a shoddy decision, but this just takes the cake.

Civil War II happened... what?

Jesus I've been out of touch.

The comic book event Civil War 2 is just beginning.

It's about a psychic with perfect future predictions and superheroes on different sides arguing and fighting about whether to go all Minority Report about it.

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

No, this is genius! And the true twist will be

Spoiler: dadadun

everybody is actually a part of Hydra and Hydra has been fighting itself the whole time

Makes 100% sense to me.
Now no one can present solid proof against it.

 

[Nazrel]

snip

This is the interview he's talking about:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/25/captain-america-villain-hydra-nick-spencer-tom-brevoort?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

Its the standard comic book, "we're super serious this time" line. The author insists its the real Steve Rogers, no mind control, but it conveniently leaves out stuff like time travel, rewritten memories, or any number of other explanations, so still pretty open to most proposed explanations. That's if its not just a straight up lie ala Slott's assuring us that Superior Spiderman would be the new permanent Spiderman.

Yeah, I thought that was probably what he was referencing and they've left themselves massive leeway in how they explain this and it's nothing at all like what he claim.

Overhead it's not about the plot.

The plot deserves a depressed sigh, and incredulous eye roll, and a "They're wasting our time with another $%&#ing one of these again?"

Almost nobody is dumb enough to believe them when they say this is going to have a lasting impact, which is a damnation in itself.

It's the marketing push that's disgusting.

Let's summarize.

Captain America, the beloved comic-book icon, is, shall be, and always has been... Nazi scum! For really, really, Reals!!!

(Nobody cares the fascist, Nazi run, Nazi analog aren't technically Nazi's.)

This is what they're trying to sell!!!

Not just to the comic sites, the Times, Entertainment Weekly, the Washington Post; they wanted the world to know!

They said they wanted to do something special to honor his 75th anniversary... So they dunked him in feces, erected him on a pole, and screamed from the rooftops "Behold your false idol, for he is all he claims to despise. Look upon and despair!"

Crap like this is why the medium is still looked down upon; why millions will watch the movies but a 100,000 for an ongoing monthly is in the range of exceptional (Well a contributing factor anyway.)

I get you're numb to this trollish bull%&$#, but for the love of god stop encouraging it it!

If their marketing spiel is "Eat #@%$ and like it!" Don't!

I eagerly await DC's attempt to top this by declaring Superman is, and always has been, a serial rapist. (sarcasm)

I hope Cap dies, not in narrative, but in the only way that matters.

I hope this so stains the character that he never recovers, that interest dwindles, that his very presence drives away readers, and his IP becomes poison.

There is a long over due lesson to be learned that there is such a thing as bad publicity, and if that needs to be done over the rotting corpse of this Icon, so be it.

 

[votemarvel]

The comic book event Civil War 2 is just beginning.

It's about a psychic with perfect future predictions and superheroes on different sides arguing and fighting about whether to go all Minority Report about it.

Which is impossible really.

As soon as you prevent one of the predictions from coming to pass then he no longer perfectly predicts the future. After all that prediction didn't happen did it? Each event you stop reduces his percentage of accuracy.

At some point he becomes 100% incorrect with the predictions.

That's if its not just a straight up lie ala Slott's assuring us that Superior Spider-Man would be the new permanent Spider-Man.

I loved Superior Spider-Man, I was prepared to hate it, but it because the most loved version of the character for me. Here Spider-Man was using his powers and his brains. Otto refusing to save that kid, forcing Parker's ghost to kick in was utter rubbish, there simply to get Parker back in the body.

I hope with Otto returning we don't just get the fat dude again but something Superior.

 

[Overhead]

snip

This is the interview he's talking about:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/25/captain-america-villain-hydra-nick-spencer-tom-brevoort?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

Its the standard comic book, "we're super serious this time" line. The author insists its the real Steve Rogers, no mind control, but it conveniently leaves out stuff like time travel, rewritten memories, or any number of other explanations, so still pretty open to most proposed explanations. That's if its not just a straight up lie ala Slott's assuring us that Superior Spiderman would be the new permanent Spiderman.

Yeah, I thought that was probably what he was referencing and they've left themselves massive leeway in how they explain this and it's nothing at all like what he claim.

Overhead it's not about the plot.

The plot deserves a depressed sigh, and incredulous eye roll, and a "They're wasting our time with another $%&#ing one of these again?"

Almost nobody is dumb enough to believe them when they say this is going to have a lasting impact, which is a damnation in itself.

It's the marketing push that's disgusting.

Let's summarize.

Captain America, the beloved comic-book icon, is, shall be, and always has been... Nazi scum! For really, really, Reals!!!

(Nobody cares the fascist, Nazi run, Nazi analog aren't technically Nazi's.)

This is what they're trying to sell!!!

Not just to the comic sites, the Times, Entertainment Weekly, the Washington Post; they wanted the world to know!

They said they wanted to do something special to honor his 75th anniversary... So they dunked him in feces, erected him on a pole, and screamed from the rooftops "Behold your false idol, for he is all he claims to despise. Look upon and despair!"

Crap like this is why the medium is still looked down upon; why millions will watch the movies but a 100,000 for an ongoing monthly is in the range of exceptional (Well a contributing factor anyway.)

I get you're numb to this trollish bull%&$#, but for the love of god stop encouraging it it!

If their marketing spiel is "Eat #@%$ and like it!" Don't!

I eagerly await DC's attempt to top this by declaring Superman is, and always has been, a serial rapist. (sarcasm)

I hope Cap dies, not in narrative, but in the only way that matters.

I hope this so stains the character that he never recovers, that interest dwindles, that his very presence drives away readers, and his IP becomes poison.

There is a long over due lesson to be learned that there is such a thing as bad publicity, and if that needs to be done over the rotting corpse of this Icon, so be it.

You're an utter hypocrite and your criticisms are entirely imaginary.

Marvel did practically nothing to market this twist, at all. The only things they've done are some fairly low key interviews as a response to the internet furore.

If you think your claims are anything other than wild ravings, feel free to link to some of these marketing attempts where you claim they utterly ruin Captain America forever. I wait with bated bread. Until then this is a very poor attempt to try and justify criticism which doesn't in any way stack up.

The person pushing "Nazi nazi nazi" is you, not Marvel.

Which is impossible really.

As soon as you prevent one of the predictions from coming to pass then he no longer perfectly predicts the future. After all that prediction didn't happen did it? Each event you stop reduces his percentage of accuracy.

At some point he becomes 100% incorrect with the predictions.

Semantics. They're perfect in that if he doesn't say anything or act to change the event, it will always happen exactly as he saw it.

 

[votemarvel]

Semantics. They're perfect in that if he doesn't say anything or act to change the event, it will always happen exactly as he saw it.

Well that is the folly of this, isn't it.

The only way the predictions can remain 100% accurate is if no-one's ever told about them. The minute one prediction is stopped from coming to pass then that prediction was inaccurate and the person is no perfect in their predictions.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Is Jean Grey still dead?

Oh gentle child of summer. Yes and no.

Original Jean Grey is dead. There is a time-displaced teenage version running about.

Beast brought the original five X-men to the future in an attempt to...I can't remember stop Cyclops radicalizing or something (he has been on a downward terrorist-lite spiral). But something got stuck and they can't go back easily. Hasn't really been explained

So there is a teenage Jean, Iceman (who came out as gay, forcing the older one to admit he was indeed closeted), Angel (who has crazy space wings now and dated Wolverines female clone), Cyclops (who has gone on space adventures with his dad) and a non-beast like Beast.

So far some of them have been neat. Jean in particular.

Which I think was a miss step of the OG Iceman.

It should of been something he struggled to come to terms with, especially since he's been closeted for so long. it should of been some real Man vs Himself stuff, considering he could literally fight his younger more open now self for spilling the beans.

People struggle with their sexuality, it would of been nice to see that instead of this idea that oh a cute red head can be like "I know your gay" and just kinda shrug and be like "right on"