Relationship thread: a different view from a different culture

[Owyn_Merrilin]

It's not so much that you're incompatible with Americans as it is your idea of dating and how to get to a marriage is incompatible with American views. You will be really hard pressed to find someone born and raised in America who will be willing to marry you without a lengthy Western style -- meaning it involves dating -- romance.

But what is so hard about just being friends and developing a relationship based on compatibility instead of intimate feelings? Why is that so weird? You could date a person for months and feel like you're a perfect match but then soon realize that you detest each other and are not compatible.

Oh, don't get me wrong -- building a relationship based on compatibility is a great idea, and when it works, it really works. But here's the thing; in western cultures, you date before marriage -- that's just how its done. The internet is full of stories of people who tried to ask a girl out on a date after being friendly with her for a few months, but getting "friend zoned" because they showed no interest in being anything but friends up to that point. If someone did that, but replaced the proposition for a date with a marriage proposal, they'd get laughed out of the room no matter how much or how little sexual tension was involved.

To give another example, you don't go straight from elementary school to graduate school, do you? In western society, skipping the dating phase is skipping almost as many stages of the relationship as going from grade school to grad school would skip stages of education. As I said, it's a very different culture when it comes to courtship rituals; it's a dance for the same occasion, but the steps are all different.

 

[DesiPrinceX09]

It's not so much that you're incompatible with Americans as it is your idea of dating and how to get to a marriage is incompatible with American views. You will be really hard pressed to find someone born and raised in America who will be willing to marry you without a lengthy Western style -- meaning it involves dating -- romance.

But what is so hard about just being friends and developing a relationship based on compatibility instead of intimate feelings? Why is that so weird? You could date a person for months and feel like you're a perfect match but then soon realize that you detest each other and are not compatible.

Oh, don't get me wrong -- building a relationship based on compatibility is a great idea, and when it works, it really works. But here's the thing; in western cultures, you date before marriage -- that's just how its done. The internet is full of stories of people who tried to ask a girl out on a date after being friendly with her for a few months, but getting "friend zoned" because they showed no interest in being anything but friends up to that point. If someone did that, but replaced the proposition for a date with a marriage proposal, they'd get laughed out of the room no matter how much or how little sexual tension was involved.

To give another example, you don't go straight from elementary school to graduate school, do you? In western society, skipping the dating phase is skipping almost as many stages of the relationship as going from grade school to grad school would skip stages of education. As I said, it's a very different culture when it comes to courtship rituals; it's a dance for the same occasion, but the steps are all different.

Oh so the whole friend zone thing is real then? I thought it was just in movies and soap operas mostly. Either way you bring up good points and I thank you for this information on American culture. I've been here 8 years and still feel like a complete stranger (sometimes) but at least I have good American friends to talk to and be around so it's all good.

Because marrige is ultimately stupid.
I'm sorry, but it is.
Look at how many of them breaks apart just because people decided to throw themselves into one.

What does your beliefs say about ending a marriage?

You say "It does not allow dating, you should marry the one you love after befriending her",
But what does it say about relationships that end? To my knowledge, most religions say "It doesn't end, DEATH ends it".
Is that how you view it as well? IF not, how do you view it? Will you go out and find another who wants a pointless marriage?

Well to my knowledge most religions allow divorce, including mine.If they broke apart because they decided to "throw themselves into one" then that means they were afraid of the commitment involved in marriage. But hey, I don't think you want to hear me defend marriage, you don't like the concept of marriage, but I do and I doubt we will convince each other otherwise (and that's perfectly fine).

 

[Daveman]

cool idea bro.

First off, I know plenty of muslims so I can't be racist.

*kidding*

But I do and I'm not.

Seriously, first off I'd like to say your mum is right on the money with the "marry your best friend" thing. In fact my parents said they did exactly that and I aim to do similarly. That said it's not entirely accurate in my opinion. For example my Dad is really into fishing but my mum never has been, so how can they really be best friends when they don't even have one of their main interests in common. My best friend loves gaming, laughs at my jokes, understands everything I say and also, unfortunately, has a penis. Marrying him is kind of out of the question for me, as I'm not gay, and for you because you're a Muslim and not gay.

The way I see the world is that if we were supposed to pick somebody to marry not based on intimate feelings then we'd be marrying our best mates, but then not everybodies would be the opposite sex (unless there's some sort of grand plan... which you no doubt believe, dammit there goes my whole argument, ah well just keep going and hope he didn't notice).

Actually that's pretty much all my argument. Yes I'm kind of deriding your beliefs but I think I did it politely enough that you wont be offeded or dismayed by us feckin' westerners.

Also sounds like you needs a hardcore muslim girl. No idea where to get one though, try Saudi Arabia... or Wallmart, they probably have them too and cheaper.

 

[Bane_Star]

Besides the contradiction:

dating is forbidden in my religion, by my family, and by my own choice.

Which suggests your not looking to dating girls..

You say:

Yes this is a big, diverse country (and I'm not trying to stereotype) with plenty of fish in the water; but I dig and I dig...but no gold, only more dirt and dead ends. .

Which suggests you ARE dating. Or at least trying to.

Firstly, stop digging. Women are not GOLD lumps under the ground, they are plants, You cannot find a flower by digging, they look pretty but they are mostly fragile. Weeds are stronger and have great looking colours and varieties, but usually have poison, stings and other nasty effects, avoid girls like that.

You have to plant seeds, as alot of people have said, be YOURSELF, through my life, and all I ever understood was that I needed to be truthful, be the real me, on a date or before a date, don't be someone else. But the reality is different. Be yourself, means BE someone, BE yourself, find something that defines who you are, be proud of it, be responsible for your decisions, MAKE decisions, and while your doing that WOMEN will notice you and you'll notice them noticing, and if they suit your needs things will develop.. The seeds? Be around people, talk to them, socialise, but just don't be the NEEDY guy that clings to everyone, and to show that, be arrogant, be assertive, call people of their jokes, foibles and stupid comments, but do so in a fun way, so you don't come across mean.

I started learning about this 5 years ago, and I've had literally(I mean the literal number) 100 girls since then, in my life in some way or another, in each case I was looking for love, attention and eventually marriage. I'm getting married in August. All those skills I learn't about getting women are now null and void for me, but for you, read above.

 

[n03s]

I am a Shia Muslim (somewhat devout, partially religious but mostly spiritual, conservative in some ways but mostly liberal), and dating is forbidden in my religion, by my family, and by my own choice.

I feel that I haven't met a girl who is worth pursuing and battling against my confidence issues so that I may sweep her off her feet. All I see here in America is a bunch of stuck up bitches (or whores) with little or no values (a far cry from my personal moral code) so why would I want to pursue any of them? Yes this is a big, diverse country (and I'm not trying to stereotype) with plenty of fish in the water; but I dig and I dig...but no gold, only more dirt and dead ends. I am just your average college student and gamer who seeks to better his life and find happiness, I just so happen to be a follower of Islam; but no one seems to be able to look past that and see me as just a person, as me...I am just an outcast, a pariah.
.

My friend you are conditioned like most religious people to think that your perspective of life is the correct and moral one..

I was raised as an orthodox christian and im glad i figured out that religion can offer you a limited amount of things..
If you really want a girl by your standards you must find someone of the same faith and believes..
Also major contradiction friend.. dating is forbidden by your religion and by your choice and yet you say you cant find anyone decent? Really? Doesnt make sense.. If you dont socialize and dating what you expect to find ?

 

[Queen Michael]

I personally have severe confidence issues, which is unfortunately very common amongst us gamers human beings.

Fixed that for you. Everybody's like that. It's part of the human condition.

 

[SpecklePattern]

I don't think girls don't like you because of your religion, but it seems more likely to me that it is because you are extremely defensive about it. This whole post screams 'look at me I am special due to my religion and fuck anyone who doesn't like that' and then you ask why nobody likes that.

That strong defensive state was my first thought also. (reading the whole message this might come from the pariah feeling and I am not saying it would be wrong or unjustified, just an observation)

I understand that I need to present myself as being desirable by being confident, intelligent, eloquent, interesting, etc. Speaking for myself here I am able to be all those things (without any effort or acting for the sake of impressing a girl), all except for one...confidence. I personally have severe confidence issues, which is unfortunately very common amongst us gamers. I am 19 (in a few days) and I have had zero girlfriends (but then again I am not allowed to date).

I think if you only present yourself you will fail. People don't say be yourself for nothing. Being something and just presenting yourself are not equal.

I have been gamer for life and I rarely see more selfaware and confident people as me, so your statement about gamers being unconfident, I do not agree with.

I feel that I haven't met a girl who is worth pursuing and battling against my confidence issues so that I may sweep her off her feet. All I see here in America is a bunch of stuck up bitches (or whores) with little or no values (a far cry from my personal moral code) so why would I want to pursue any of them? Yes this is a big, diverse country (and I'm not trying to stereotype) with plenty of fish in the water; but I dig and I dig...but no gold, only more dirt and dead ends. I am just your average college student and gamer who seeks to better his life and find happiness, I just so happen to be a follower of Islam; but no one seems to be able to look past that and see me as just a person, as me...I am just an outcast, a pariah.

So you try and try and you constantly look for someone who would be worth of your time and the main argument is that your a pariah? Sounds like your nearly crying. I don't know. I am from Finland actually and I might be an odd bird (far away from US and islam religion what comes to any real experience), but I found my girl when I stopped looking when I was 22.

EDIT: There's no need to lecture me on making generalizations, I am not lumping all American girls (and American people period) together, I don't think that way; it's just what I've come across, and I had hoped I wouldn't need to clarify this but it's okay. As for my moral code: it's personal, something that applies to me and is not based on following my religion's rules. It's based off many ideals and doesn't fit into one category, so don't think that my moral code=Islam.

Yes yes, noted in answer above.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

It's not so much that you're incompatible with Americans as it is your idea of dating and how to get to a marriage is incompatible with American views. You will be really hard pressed to find someone born and raised in America who will be willing to marry you without a lengthy Western style -- meaning it involves dating -- romance.

But what is so hard about just being friends and developing a relationship based on compatibility instead of intimate feelings? Why is that so weird? You could date a person for months and feel like you're a perfect match but then soon realize that you detest each other and are not compatible.

Oh, don't get me wrong -- building a relationship based on compatibility is a great idea, and when it works, it really works. But here's the thing; in western cultures, you date before marriage -- that's just how its done. The internet is full of stories of people who tried to ask a girl out on a date after being friendly with her for a few months, but getting "friend zoned" because they showed no interest in being anything but friends up to that point. If someone did that, but replaced the proposition for a date with a marriage proposal, they'd get laughed out of the room no matter how much or how little sexual tension was involved.

To give another example, you don't go straight from elementary school to graduate school, do you? In western society, skipping the dating phase is skipping almost as many stages of the relationship as going from grade school to grad school would skip stages of education. As I said, it's a very different culture when it comes to courtship rituals; it's a dance for the same occasion, but the steps are all different.

Oh so the whole friend zone thing is real then? I thought it was just in movies and soap operas mostly. Either way you bring up good points and I thank you for this information on American culture. I've been here 8 years and still feel like a complete stranger (sometimes) but at least I have good American friends to talk to and be around so it's all good.

If you take the friend zone to be that place you go when you want a relationship with someone, but all they want is a friendship, then it absolutely exists. Some people try to tack on other qualifiers, which may or may not exist in reality, but the one I'm talking about is as real as you and me. As for the rest, you're absolutely welcome for the info, I'm glad to help. Moving is tough for anybody; when the move involves switching between two distinct cultures, it makes it even harder.

 

[DesiPrinceX09]

This thread is harder than I thought. I am not that great a writer but I am trying my best not to sound pretentious or zealous (because I know people will lash out at the smallest things), please believe I am far from being any of those things (once again I am REALLY sorry for sounding superior). I was just adding a bit of sarcastic humor with my statement about jumping in front of a speeding car, but can a Muslim get away with it? It seems not, oh well. Re-read my posts and read the whole thing (and my edits). I am sorry for sounding defensive but some of you are not making it any easier (I need to put in extra effort just to not get flamed, and those of you who did jump on me you are just proving my need for defense. If I'm too confident I get called pretentious, If I am not confident then I am defensive and zealous, so either way I lose). I have no trouble with "being myself" and i thank everyone for that bit of advice. What can I do about my confidence issues?

 

[valkeminator]

Look, best thing to do is just do what you think is right, at the same time think... Is this the choice or life you want?

FYI, I came from Indonesia, a country that is dominantly muslim, (I'm not muslim by the way, I'm a Catholic and not exactly Indonesian either) and seriously, CRAPLOAD of people are dating anyway who are muslim. In my opinion you're just looking into it too deeply. If you disagree then that's perfectly fine, and just do what you wish then.

I also think that going straight to marriage without dating is just... out of place. Same thing like what someone else here said about you dont go to college without going through high school and stuff... Theres always a stage to get to marriage, otherwise I just see it as a "Shortcut".

HOWEVER!!!

In the end other's opinion does not matter, especially if you completely disregard what others have suggested and do what you want to do in the end anyway.

 

[Nickolai77]

This thread is harder than I thought. I am not that great a writer but I am trying my best not to sound pretentious or zealous (because I know people will lash out at the smallest things), please believe I am far from being any of those things (once again I am REALLY sorry for sounding superior)

Dude, stop with the apologetics, your putting us Brit's to shame.


Someone on this thread came up with the idea that you find someone whom shares the same sort of interests as you do, and through them you will meet more like minded people, and also like minded women. That sounds like good advise to me. A good place to start might be to see if your uni has a Muslim society- mine does.

I think your best bet is to find someone of your own faith. Not only do you have that in common, but perhaps they'll also understand your customs. A Western girl, even the most open minded ones, would find it very odd not dating first before marriage.

Personally, i like the idea of becoming friends with a girl before getting romantically involved with them. I think that makes a lot of sense but unfortunately that doesn't usually happen in the West. Most of the time, if you become good friends with a girl then they see you as a friend and nothing more. This is why, when dealing with Western women at least, the man should show romantic interest fairly quickly.

 

[Trolldor]

Your religion is going to inhibit greatly on that, there's simply no getting around it.

Also, dating.
It's fine.
You say intimacy is banned, fine. Don't get all touchy and feely, but there's no reason you can't ask a girl out to dinner or for a coffee or something. And Intimacy is more than just touching and physical affection. Emotional affection is actually the prime component to intimacy. The context in which you hold hands with a friend is very different to the context in which you hold hands with a partner, because the underlying emotions are very different.
You're in a different culture mate, unless you find a community that thinks and acts as you do, you're going to have to adapt and change to the predominant environment if you want the best chance at meeting someone.
If you aren't willing to take that step, then your best bet is to not look at your surrounding environment, but to go elsewhere.

Also, as you're now in the US, refusing to go on dates means you are likely to not have a meaningful relationship anytime soon.
Oh, and drop the moral superiority complex. It's going to be very hard to meet someone if they don't meet your excessive moral standards. And the whole "all bitches and whores" thing? Not really a good way to start.

 

[Zaik]

You could try http://salaamlove.com/ ?

Beyond that you're pretty much stuck finding someone of your own religion, as I don't know of any others, or anyone outside of that religion, that would actually do that.

 

[BonsaiK]

I am turning 19 soon and I have never been in anything even close to a relationship so I ask you escapists, what's a guy like me to do? And what is your opinion of this?

Go to a mosque I guess. Most Christians find people to connect with at church, I don't see why it wouldn't be a similar situation for Muslims. Every orthodox religion has its own "building of mass worship", and the reason why is for people who share the same belief system and values to not only worship together but to meet, socialise, get to know each other, feel like an extended family and perhaps even form relationships. No doubt that within your religious community there's social groups of some kind. Failing that, you could probably find some at college.

You shouldn't be so judgemental about some of the American women you meet. If you want to be culturally accepted, then you should be tolerant of others. It's a different culture and you should learn to respect it, just like others should respect your lifestyle and anyone travelling to your place of origin would do well to respect your own culture. It doesn't mean you have to live your own life like that, but a general philosophy of "live and let live" will get you far in life.