Religious Freedom

[moretimethansense]

I do respect their beliefs. I just don't want to take part in the tradition of wearing a yarmulke when I go there to learn about it. I believe I'm being quite mature and reasonable. You're the one who is claiming people are immature arseholes.
Just because I say I'm an atheist, doesn't mean that I have no beliefs in religious matters. One of my beliefs is that people should respect others. You obviously have a problem with doing that, and if you're not willing to respect my opinion then I have no further business with you.

Okay, allow me to put this in to simple terms so I can get my point across.

Their beliefs are that NO MALE should enter without wearing a kippah.

You a male, wish to enter without wearing a kippah.

Ergo you are not respecting their beliefs by refusing to wear one.

It's your right to choose not to go in, but it is not in your right to infringe on their beliefs by entering without wearing a kippah.

Would you enter a mosque with your shoes on left foot first?
It's the same thing, it is a sign of disrespect.

EDIT: BTW, I am somewhat annoyed by your implication that I do not respect others traditions as I sit here stateing that you should.

And another thing, resspecting others beliefs is not a religios belief, it is a personal one.
Atheists by definition have no religious beliefs.

 

[iamthe1]

Dude, it's just a yarmulke (skullcap? seriously?). Just put the damn thing on and participate! If you're worried that it's going to change you, then you're beliefs are rather fragile to begin with. It seems like you're raising a stink for no reason.

Trust me, as long as it's not a super-orthodox service, you'll soon forgot that you even have it on: you'll be too busy singing.

My English teacher called it a skullcap, so I just decided to use that name for it.
I know it's not going to change me. That's not the point.
And no, I highly doubt I'll be singing.

Okay, I posted hastily, but I'm still confused: Are they making going into the synagogue mandatory?

If you are being forced to participate in a religious event or observe a religious ceremony, then yes, that is nonsense, and they have no right to make you do it, so please raise a stink.

But if however it is not mandatory, then I don't see what the problem is. Either don't do it, or just put it on and go in. I was assuming they're just asking you to participate, and you're being obstinate for no good reason.

 

[Bobbity]

I wore a yamaka for my friends barmitzva (I'm aware I butchered this sentence but spell check isn't helping and it's 5:10 AM) and while I'm not religious I wasn't about to not go with it. It's not like you've just branded yourself religious it's just about ...not making an ass of yourself I guess.

But isn't this something you agreed to by going with the trip? If not ask before going?

They didn't even let us know this would be happening until today, and the trip is tomorrow. I let my teacher that myself and some other students weren't agreeing with it. They gave me short notice it would be happening, we gave short notice we didn't agree. I don't know how this is going to turn out.

Just go with it. It's like obeying the rules of the house; it doesn't mean that you've suddenly converted or anything. People often have to go through a lot of shit being forced to participate in the religion of their school - be that Christian, Muslim, Jewish or so on. This is pretty low on the scale.

Besides which, I'd imagine that your school has the occasional church service, and that non-christian people have to put up with that, and a lot more frequently than you're going to be doing this.

 

[Bobbity]

You are the visitor. They are calling the shots. You can choose not to visit. They honestly feel can't let you in without the hat. This is not a matter of imposing their religion on the world at large [like the absence of legal abortion in Ireland, for example], but a matter of doing so in their own home, so to speak.

I can't choose not to visit actually. I could break school rules and not turn up when they expect me to, get a detention and get in trouble with my parents, OR I can turn up, be open minded, and politely decline to wear the thing. Which one do you think is more rude?

Religious tolerance is in short supply these days; especially in America. Please just go along with it. I'm sure that there are non-christians in your school who have to put up with the occasional church service, etc.

We can do without the insults, thanks. I've been nothing but understanding in this discussion.
And just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean people don't have to respect my beliefs. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't have any beliefs to respect. If I were to say that I only wear pirate hats due to my Pastafarianism?, does that mean I now earn your religious respect? I'm fine with not entering, I've already stated that several times.

I thought that, as an atheist, you'd be more tolerant of other religions than a christian

I think that you are being childish and contrary just for the sake of being contrary.

You claim that you want them to respect your belifs but are unwilling to respect their's, you can frankly sod off you offenssive git, willfully ignoring the will of your host is incredibly rude regardless of the situation, for example were you to enter my house wearing an article of clothing made of fur after I'd told you that that was unacceptable in my house I'd throw you the fuck out.
And by the way, you say your an atheist?
We don't HAVE any religious beliefs to respect.

The only time that this should even be an issue would be if you had a specific religious belief that didn't allow for the wearing of hats, and even then the only correct response would be to not enter.

If you are so offended by a small religios item you have no buisness setting foot on any holy ground at all.

Please, stop. I understand that this kid's sense of pride is frustrating, but insulting him for being close-minded isn't exactly helping.

 

[MacGuges]

I wore a yamaka for my friends barmitzva (I'm aware I butchered this sentence but spell check isn't helping and it's 5:10 AM) and while I'm not religious I wasn't about to not go with it. It's not like you've just branded yourself religious it's just about ...not making an ass of yourself I guess.

But isn't this something you agreed to by going with the trip? If not ask before going?

They didn't even let us know this would be happening until today, and the trip is tomorrow. I let my teacher that myself and some other students weren't agreeing with it. They gave me short notice it would be happening, we gave short notice we didn't agree. I don't know how this is going to turn out.

It sounds to me you're more interested in seeking confirmation than advice. If you're determined to stand outside to avoid wearing a skullcap, you can always do that, but you should not expect that atheists will all agree with your judgement. Meanwhile you should consider that you'll be creating a complication for your teacher, who will have to keep in mind that you've separated from the group and may have to explain why her student is standing outside.

 

[HardkorSB]

That's preposterous!
Next they will make you wipe your feet before you go in.
This cannot continue!

Most likley you won't need the hard hat in a "visitor" scenario

Actually, you're required to wear it as soon as you enter the site, no matter who you are.

Care to explain your opinion instead of the sarcasm?
And what I think he's saying is that if there were going to be visitors in a construction site, they would only be going to visit the places where it was safe enough to not have to wear one, but I see your point.

My opinion is that it's just a skullcap. They're not making you pray or anything. Plus, it's kind of part of the whole experience, isn't it? If it's such a problem for you to wear it then don't go.

 

[Laser Priest]

You are the visitor. They are calling the shots. You can choose not to visit. They honestly feel can't let you in without the hat. This is not a matter of imposing their religion on the world at large [like the absence of legal abortion in Ireland, for example], but a matter of doing so in their own home, so to speak.

This.

Say you're the guest in a house. The host doesn't want you preforming dark rituals on the kitchen table. That might be part of your daily schedule; you might just love rituals on the kitchen table, but the host does not, so the polite thing to do is keep the ritual knife tucked away until you get home.

 

[TacticalAssassin1]

WALL-O-TEXT INCOMING. Apologies.

I do respect their beliefs. I just don't want to take part in the tradition of wearing a yarmulke when I go there to learn about it. I believe I'm being quite mature and reasonable. You're the one who is claiming people are immature arseholes.
Just because I say I'm an atheist, doesn't mean that I have no beliefs in religious matters. One of my beliefs is that people should respect others. You obviously have a problem with doing that, and if you're not willing to respect my opinion then I have no further business with you.

Okay, allow me to put this in to simple terms so I can get my point across.

Their beliefs are that NO MALE should enter without wearing a kippah.

You a male, wish to enter without wearing a kippah.

Ergo you are not respecting their beliefs by refusing to wear one.

It's your right to choose not to go in, but it is not in your right to infringe on their beliefs by entering without wearing a kippah.

Would you enter a mosque with your shoes on left foot first?
It's the same thing, it is a sign of disrespect.

I understand that. I have no intention of going in without wearing a kippah. Because I know that would be disrespectful. I understand that, I just want to wait outside. If that makes me seem like a jerk, then so be it, I honestly couldn't care less.

Dude, it's just a yarmulke (skullcap? seriously?). Just put the damn thing on and participate! If you're worried that it's going to change you, then you're beliefs are rather fragile to begin with. It seems like you're raising a stink for no reason.

Trust me, as long as it's not a super-orthodox service, you'll soon forgot that you even have it on: you'll be too busy singing.

My English teacher called it a skullcap, so I just decided to use that name for it.
I know it's not going to change me. That's not the point.
And no, I highly doubt I'll be singing.

Okay, I posted hastily, but I'm still confused: Are they making going into the synagogue mandatory?

If you are being forced to participate in a religious event or observe a religious ceremony, then yes, that is nonsense, and they have no right to make you do it, so please raise a stink.

But if however it is not mandatory, then I don't see what the problem is. Either don't do it, or just put it on and go in. I was assuming they're just asking you to participate, and you're being obstinate for no good reason.

I'm not actually sure if going into the synagogue is mandatory or not, but the excursion itself is. I have no idea what they're planning to do in there, but it is probably a religious ceremony of some sort. My teacher said to the class today "You're all senior students, so I hope you are all grown up about this and don't make a fuss" and I'm inclined to think that this will count as 'making a fuss' even if I do it as discreetly as possible.

Besides which, I'd imagine that your school has the occasional church service, and that non-christian people have to put up with that, and a lot more frequently than you're going to be doing this.

Actually no, my school never engages in religious activities of that sort. It's an Australian school, and we Australians aren't actually that religious, and I'm pretty sure that religion and government is meant to keep separate anyway.

 

[Bobbity]

Besides which, I'd imagine that your school has the occasional church service, and that non-christian people have to put up with that, and a lot more frequently than you're going to be doing this.

Actually no, my school never engages in religious activities of that sort. It's an Australian school, and we Australians aren't actually that religious, and I'm pretty sure that religion and government is meant to keep separate anyway.

Really? I'm at an Australian school too, and I have to put up with sermons, hymns and prayer three times a week. It drives my dad up the wall

Anyway, what does it matter? You can probably just have a good laugh about it, afterwards.

/edit
Screwed up the quote :S

 

[TacticalAssassin1]

Besides which, I'd imagine that your school has the occasional church service, and that non-christian people have to put up with that, and a lot more frequently than you're going to be doing this.

Actually no, my school never engages in religious activities of that sort. It's an Australian school, and we Australians aren't actually that religious, and I'm pretty sure that religion and government is meant to keep separate anyway.

Really? I'm at an Australian school too, and I have to put up with sermons, hymns and prayer three times a week. It drives my dad up the wall

Anyway, what does it matter? You can probably just have a good laugh about it, afterwards.

/edit
Screwed up the quote :S

Yeah, it's just a regular high school. And yes, true. I've sort of exhausted myself on this forum anyway, might not bother standing my ground too much if they're insistent. It'll piss me off though, if they absolutely force it upon us.
Anyways I'm going to go play some cod, to get the frustration out. Feel free to pm me if you want. I'll be back on later anyway.

 

[MmmFiber]

You haven't said why you object. And I'm willing to bet it's not for as good a reason as you think it is. I did tons of stupid rebellious shit in high school that was ultimately meaningless but I told myself I wasn't going to conform and was going to stand up for what was right. But in the end most of it was dumb. And sorry to say this one probably is too. You're not being asked to take part in a religious ceremony, you're being asked to be respectful by keeping your head covered.

This.

If they are Orthodox, it would be respectful to wear it. And the only reason for you to go and then refuse to wear the cap(however politely) is to make a statement. It's just the hormonal stage that testosterone is pumping into your system, authority is to be damned, and not bending on your opinions is tantamount to validating your personal place in society. A lot more effective ways exist to do that. Ways that people will respect.

 

[the clockmaker]

Understanding does not come from external observation, it comes from participation. If wearing the cap seriously offends you, politely appologise to the Rabbi and ask to remain outside.

If, however, you actually want to understand the Jewish faith and tradition, put the cap on and take part.

This is not a complex situation.

 

[Snotnarok]

I wore a yamaka for my friends barmitzva (I'm aware I butchered this sentence but spell check isn't helping and it's 5:10 AM) and while I'm not religious I wasn't about to not go with it. It's not like you've just branded yourself religious it's just about ...not making an ass of yourself I guess.

But isn't this something you agreed to by going with the trip? If not ask before going?

They didn't even let us know this would be happening until today, and the trip is tomorrow. I let my teacher that myself and some other students weren't agreeing with it. They gave me short notice it would be happening, we gave short notice we didn't agree. I don't know how this is going to turn out.

Well either just go with it and not care about what just transpired, or get all upset over something you can't do anything about till tomorrow.

If this is really forcing you to go there you could just go to a guidance councilor (or whatever is on hand) and discuss how this is just not something you're comfortable with.

Honestly I think you're worrying over nothing, I did it for my friend already, yes I was bored as hell because I didn't understand things that were said, but I learned about his religion and how itchy the hats can be. Seriously, unless they strap you to a chair and force you to sign papers you're good.

 

[Gigano]

If it conflicts with your (lack of) beliefs, don't do it.

If you have chosen a rule for yourself that you do not wish to participate in religious activities, why on earth would that rule deserve any less respect than their chosen beliefs? Though of course one of the benefits of atheism is that it allows for non-dogmatism and flexibility as well if one choose it.

Personally, I wouldn't really mind putting on some weird clothing item to see what they were up to. I always wondered whether their current sermons contains the same ethically questionable statements on stuff like homosexuality etc. the Old Testament does.

 

[jackpipsam]

I would stick to your guns and say no

 

[iamthe1]

Dude, it's just a yarmulke (skullcap? seriously?). Just put the damn thing on and participate! If you're worried that it's going to change you, then you're beliefs are rather fragile to begin with. It seems like you're raising a stink for no reason.

Trust me, as long as it's not a super-orthodox service, you'll soon forgot that you even have it on: you'll be too busy singing.

My English teacher called it a skullcap, so I just decided to use that name for it.
I know it's not going to change me. That's not the point.
And no, I highly doubt I'll be singing.

Okay, I posted hastily, but I'm still confused: Are they making going into the synagogue mandatory?

If you are being forced to participate in a religious event or observe a religious ceremony, then yes, that is nonsense, and they have no right to make you do it, so please raise a stink.

But if however it is not mandatory, then I don't see what the problem is. Either don't do it, or just put it on and go in. I was assuming they're just asking you to participate, and you're being obstinate for no good reason.

I'm not actually sure if going into the synagogue is mandatory or not, but the excursion itself is. I have no idea what they're planning to do in there, but it is probably a religious ceremony of some sort. My teacher said to the class today "You're all senior students, so I hope you are all grown up about this and don't make a fuss" and I'm inclined to think that this will count as 'making a fuss' even if I do it as discreetly as possible.

Either way, it comes down to you:

If it's mandatory, then it shouldn't be. Seriously, it sounds borderline illegal via separation of church and state. Your teacher should not have arranged this excursion if participation in a religious ceremony is required, more so if it will affect your grade. But only you can decide if it's worth the trouble to protest. It will be frowned upon for a variety of reasons.

If it's not mandatory, then make your choice. Wearing a yarmulke it not going to affect your worldview, so my advice is just do it. But if don't want to, that's cool to.

Find out if it's mandatory, then I would advise that you approach your teacher with your concerns if it is. But you will likely be intimidated to drop it. At that point, try to gracefully refuse or raise a fuckin' stink. That's on you.

 

[EradiusLore]

im not sure religious and freedom are two words that should go together. and no you shouldnt be expected to participate in religious rituals.

 

[RyQ_TMC]

*snip*

I understand it's already quite a long thread, and several different opinions have been voiced, but maybe some of my past experiences will help with perspective.
First of all, the most important thing here is that being religious doesn't cause anyone to think right off the bat that everyone outside their group is either conversion fodder or a lost cause. In cases such as this (entering a place deemed holy), expecting you to conform to some ritualized practices is exactly the same as your school expecting you to wear formal clothes to your graduation. You show your respect for their customs, but not one of them would expect you to start memorizing the Shema.
I've visited temples of a number of faiths in my life, and every time I made a point of doing whatever was required of me. So yes, I did wear a kippah in a synagogue and took care not to turn my back on the altar in an Eastern Orthodox church. What those experiences gave me was an interest in getting to know their associated cultures, making them more tangible than the TV images which had been my only contact with them before. I never had a slightest interest in converting, but I feel enriched by the experience.

So I guess the TL;DR version is: Don't fear the unknown. If a museum prohibits taking photos, do you also refuse to enter one for fear of being forced to adopt a set of rules?

 

[GraveeKing]

I don't think you're joining in so much as just respecting their beliefs.
Imagine it like people dressed nearly naked on a beach in a Muslim or other religious country that rather you dress fully. It's not asking you to join in at all, it's just the polite way of saying 'please respect that this is what we want you to do so we're not offended'.

Of course you have your own freedom and you don't have to do anything if you don't want to, but it is kind of rude in my view to just say 'nope not having any of that you can't tell me what to do!' and wait outside.
If I were you I'd just bear with it, they're not asking you to pray or anything and they've got to respect your beliefs as much as you respect theirs. If you feel you don't want to do anything just don't do it, they can't force you to pray to their god or anything so don't look at it as joining in.

 

[James13v]

its not that its an inconvenience, its more the principle of the thing

So do you object to being forced to wear a decent shirt and pants in a nightclub?

Polite refusal to conform to a belief structure is in no way disrespecting their traditions. The Jewish faith is, in my experience, one of the more understanding paths out there. Being forced to wear the cap is like being forced to take communion in a cathedral if you aren't Catholic. I personally am mostly atheistic in practice, but I have studied religions and toured many different faith's places of worship. I've never been turned away because I wouldn't wear the cap or take communion or go to confessional, etc.

Basically, if it infringes on your own personal belief structure, refuse politely. Manners, as with all people, are the key.

That's a terrible analogy. They won't let you take the host unless you go through all the rituals and stuff beforehand. And admittadly, I don't even know the point of the skullcap, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with "comforming to belief" You don't even have to stand up to get the host if you don't want. You can just sit there.

Really, mate? Comparing a religious place of worship to a nightclub? Haha. No further comment.

They are essentially the same thing. Both are social areas for specific groups of people. These groups are selected and allowed to attend by the owners of the establishment. If the Pope change the dress code for churches to night-club dress, a lot of church attendees would be wearing nightclub dress.