Religious Freedom

[10BIT]

we are studying "Maus" by Art Spiegelman.

Awesome! I enjoyed that book immensely; I wish the school I went to allowed us to study Maus. Are you investigating any particular theme or are you just having a general overview at the moment?

On Topic: you're well within your rights to refuse to wear a kippah/yarmulke/skullcap, no school should force a student to wear religious garb.

It annoys me how many people in this tread either a) believe respecting a person's belief requires joining in with their rituals or b) use ad hominem and say that you're just an uppity teen looking to rebel

It's people with your attitude that make the rest of us look like arseholes.

If you don't want to look like an arsehole, maybe you should stop belittling others for having different opinions.

Their beliefs are that NO MALE should enter without wearing a kippah.

Can you provide a source for that, please? My google searches into this matter states no JEWISH male rather than all males. For a non-jewish male, the kippah is entirely optional, though highly recommended if you wish to partake in one of the rituals.

 

[moretimethansense]

we are studying "Maus" by Art Spiegelman.

Awesome! I enjoyed that book immensely; I wish the school I went to allowed us to study Maus. Are you investigating any particular theme or are you just having a general overview at the moment?

On Topic: you're well within your rights to refuse to wear a kippah/yarmulke/skullcap, no school should force a student to wear religious garb.

It annoys me how many people in this tread either a) believe respecting a person's belief requires joining in with their rituals or b) use ad hominem and say that you're just an uppity teen looking to rebel

It's people with your attitude that make the rest of us look like arseholes.

If you don't want to look like an arsehole, maybe you should stop belittling others for having different opinions.

Their beliefs are that NO MALE should enter without wearing a kippah.

Can you provide a source for that, please? My google searches into this matter states no JEWISH male rather than all males. For a non-jewish male, the kippah is entirely optional, though highly recommended if you wish to partake in one of the rituals.

Source?
How about the OP?

He flat out stated that they would be required to wear one so in this particular synagogue at least it would appear to be mandatory.

EDIT And I'm belittleing him for making a massive deal out of wearing a fucking hat.
If he is an atheist as he says it would take absolutely no sacrifice on his part and he seems to be doing it for the sole purpose of being obstannant.

 

[Zay-el]

Tomorrow, my school is taking myself and a few dozen other students to a Jewish museum. I'm totally fine with this, and have no problem accepting other peoples views and opinions. However, my English teacher today told the class that we would be visiting a synagogue, and that every male visitor would have to wear a skullcap. I have no problem with their beliefs, but as soon as they try to make me join in, that's where I draw the line. I'm fine with waiting outside if that's what it takes, and so are most of my friends (the ones that are even bothering to attend, anyway), but I expect that the teachers are going to force us to go with it. I know I'm the visitor, and I'm expected to join in and such, but this is compulsory and I'm not a religious person and do not wish to participate in religious activities. It's against my beliefs.

Do you think I'm in the right here? Or do you think I should just 'man up' and deal with it?
Discuss?
[sub] No flame wars please.[/sub]

This is not a question of religion or anything. This is basic respect. If you feel that your head is going to melt because of it, then don't go at all. I really don't get as to why people feel like religion other than their own(or lack of) is going to totally corrupt them, if they dare to pay respect to it.

I'm an Atheist and I spent 5 years in a Christian high-school, had a great time with good people and guess what, whenever we had a sermon, I attended it! I was bored, I was tired, it was long, but I attended it, because it didn't kill me and it was the least I could do in return for the very good education I got there.

When you go around, announcing that you would like to visit it, but not show the minimal amount of respect, I'm not going to symphatise with you at all.

 

[Nielserik]

In this case, wearing the tiny hat is a symbol of respect to the god they worship (I'm an atheist myself, no hate intented). So if you want to enter, I think it's perfectly reasonable that you wear it, not to respect the god, but to respect the people who worship him.

However if you don't want to do this, I think your teacher should allow you to stay outside.

 

[Vrach]

You have the freedom to say no. Whether you wish to use it, it's up to you.

 

[nyaman]

I think people don't quite get the whole wearing the skull cap deal. It's not a statement of "I believe in this God," it's not forcing you to take part in a ritual. It would better be equated to removing a hat when you walk into a church or not showing cleavage in a mosque. It's not polite to ask not to wear the skull cap, it's actually kind of offensive to assume you should be able to walk in without it. Not wearing it would be you saying "I don't respect the importance and sanctity of this building." In the end, it's not a big deal, it's simply showing respect for the establishment. I say you should just wear the thing and be done with it. Hardly impacts your life.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just common courtesy that you abide by the house rules when visiting.

If you visit my house there will be rules I want you to keep, and if you don't want you stay outside, you can always say no.

 

[Brinnmilo]

I reckon the school would make exception if members of your group were of a conflicting religious belief, eg Hindu or Muslim, and I think your beliefs warrant equal respect.

 

[10BIT]

Source?
How about the OP?

He flat out stated that they would be required to wear one so in this particular synagogue at least it would appear to be mandatory.

EDIT And I'm belittleing him for making a massive deal out of wearing a fucking hat.
If he is an atheist as he says it would take absolutely no sacrifice on his part and he seems to be doing it for the sole purpose of being obstannant.

He never stated it was the synagogue that enforced the rule. I assumed that it was the teacher being over-cautious when trying to respect the jewish traditions. You could be right that this synagogue enforces all males to wear the kippah, but I still have yet to see any evidence this is true.

A kippah is more than just "a fucking hat", it is a religious symbol showing that you consider yourself a servant of Yahweh. Even if it was just "a fucking hat", your belittling still makes you look like an arsehole.

 

[moretimethansense]

Source?
How about the OP?

He flat out stated that they would be required to wear one so in this particular synagogue at least it would appear to be mandatory.

EDIT And I'm belittleing him for making a massive deal out of wearing a fucking hat.
If he is an atheist as he says it would take absolutely no sacrifice on his part and he seems to be doing it for the sole purpose of being obstannant.

He never stated it was the synagogue that enforced the rule. I assumed that it was the teacher being over-cautious when trying to respect the jewish traditions. You could be right that this synagogue enforces all males to wear the kippah, but I still have yet to see any evidence this is true.

A kippah is more than just "a fucking hat", it is a religious symbol showing that you consider yourself a servant of Yahweh. Even if it was just "a fucking hat", your belittling still makes you look like an arsehole.

If it's the teacher and not the synagogue then fair enough, he need not wear it, though it's stil him needlessly rebelling at least it won't offend people needlessly.

As to the "Fucking hat" comment, I meant to him it's just a fucking hat, to an atheist it has no significance whatsoever so acting like it's some massive attack on his belief system (of which an atheist has none) is just an act of immaturity as there is no reason to refuse.
If he were (for example) a Benedictine monk then sure he'd have reaso to complain, but he has admitted himself an atheist, if this synagogue does enforce the wearing of Kippah(s?) it hurts him in no way to conform.

 

[TacticalAssassin1]

Let me see if I can step back and add some cultural understanding.

Whether you get it or not, being in a Jewish place of worship without a hat is considered disrespectful dress, just as if you showed up in say your underwear and nothing else. You wouldn't do that just to make a point that you don't believe in their dress code right?

Putting on a head covering is not considered a religious act, although religious people do it. If you were to show up for morning services, you would find people wearing a variety of hat types based on their cultural tradition, a shawl or scarf known as a tallis, and boxes attached by leather straps to their arm and head known as teffillin.

Under no circumstances would you be expected to wear tallis and teffillin as those ARE items of religious significance. You in fact might be prohibitted in many shules from putting them on, especially the teffillin.

The Jewish religion is as anti-conversion/anti-recruiting as you can get. We have no interest in you participating in religious ceremonies/rights. You are welcome to observe as long as you act respectful in doing so. That's all putting on a hat, or not showing up in your underwear, is about.

Thanks for the information. I understand what you're saying. And no, I wouldn't refuse to wear the hat just to make a statement. I do have a hat I could take, and if my teacher is being overly cautious not to offend those there, then she'll probably ask me to wear one, in which case I probably won't be bothered to make a fuss about it.
Half the reason I was so against it in the first place was/is that i was pretty sure that there was absolutely no say in the matter, which obviously I see as wrong. Now I think about it, and after all the explanations it's not that much a big deal, but I still believe that if somebody doesn't want to participate they have the right to say no.
Besides, it was interesting to see what peoples opinions on the subject was, which is why I started the thread in the first place.

 

[Sanglyon]

I wouldn't go inside a building if I had to wear a religious symbol of any kind, and I wouldn't make any concession by wearing a hat either. I don't have respect for any religions, and I won't give them any grasp on me by bending to their rules, even small one.

However, I respect other human being, and I'll show this respect by not entering said building at all. What would be truly disrespectfull would be to demand to enter nevertheless. That's not a public building, it belongs to a community that sets the rules inside it.

 

[10BIT]

He need not wear a kippah, any hat will do. And no, that's not what it means.

What is the meaning behind a kippah then (genuinely interested)?

Snip

Being an atheist means that you lack a belief in a god/gods, not that you lack beliefs.

My English teacher called it a skullcap, so I just decided to use that name for it.

If he referred to it as a skullcap, there could be a chance that it is a non-religious version; not all skullcaps are kippahs (as far as I know).

 

[Merkavar]

and I think they should respect my beliefs.

they will respect your beliefs. you can stand out side.

But really why should you go? you seem to be so closed minded that you cant handle wearing a relgious cap for a day. why not save you, your parents or the school some money and not go. if its free stop wasting peoples time. you sound like you would not gain anything from going other than hatred over being force to wear a hat.

It does sound like it is a waste of time for him to go. Some people value learning about other cultures, others are xenophobic.

And to be clear...He is not required to wear a "religious cap", he is required to wear a head covering. Any hat appropriate to the dress is fine. A baseball cap for example is probably fine. The type of hat worn by Jewish people actually differs by region and there is no religious significance to its design or style at all. Men are just supposed to cover their head (this actually was common in much of the world for centuries as a matter of polite dress). If he has questions he can phone the Rabbi in adavance and gain understanding.

the cap isnt even religious its more a cultural/traditional thing?

That makes it even sillier for him to be complaining.

he puts the hat on for a day, learns about another culture/religion/tradition and then takes the hat off. no permanent damage other than increased knowledge and understanding and that can be treated with alchol. Looks like the OP is accepting that its a non issue or what ever. from what he wrote above.

awe got put on probation

 

[nyaman]

People just use the term skullcap because the terms kippah and yamoulkah are a tad more foreign. They are all acceptable ways of referring to it.
The point of the kippah is little more than tradition. As a form of respect, males cover our heads when we enter a sacred place. Any covering will do, but over time it has become tradition to wear the skull caps. You won't find any specific rules about it in the scriptures, it's just as a culture we pride ourselves in our sense of tradition (as any familiar with Fiddler on the Roof will probably get) and this is just one of those things.

 

[Frankster]

To use a metaphor as an analogy for your situation: would you take off your shoes before walking into a mosque?

Thats more or less same situation as OP.

Personally I feel there is no reason for you not to respect the location's custom/rules, if you can't accept that, then don't enter and explain why if asked, people will understand.

 

[TacticalAssassin1]

I wouldn't go inside a building if I had to wear a religious symbol of any kind, and I wouldn't make any concession by wearing a hat either. I don't have respect for any religions, and I won't give them any grasp on me by bending to their rules, even small one.

However, I respect other human being, and I'll show this respect by not entering said building at all. What would be truly disrespectfull would be to demand to enter nevertheless. That's not a public building, it belongs to a community that sets the rules inside it.

If you get rid of the 'no respect for religions' bit, this is basically what I was trying to point out with this thread.
I mean, if all I have to do is wear a crappy old hat I have lying around my room somewhere, why not. BUT that's pretty much as far as I'm going. I'll be respectful while I'm there, but I see no reason why it would be wrong of me to refuse to participate in any rituals ect in the unlikely chance they ask me to.

 

[Mr Somewhere]

I don't see what the problem is here, nor why so many people are throwing up a stink. You respected their beliefs, opinions, you weren't being a "rebel" you simply did not want to take part in any active practices. Which is your right.

 

[mikespoff]

You're willing to learn about a religion, but you're not willing to respect its traditions?

Respecting traditions and participating with them is quite different. I've no problem with the tradition itself, but I don't want to participate, and will politely decline the invitation. Isn't that respectful?

You're not participating in the tradition by simply wearing a yarmulke - it really is just a respect thing. By wearing it you are acknowledging that the place you are in is holy to the people who hosting you, not that you necessarily consider it holy. They're not asking you to pray with them, they're not asking you to perform any religious ceremony, they're just asking you to respect that what you're seeing and learning about is a big deal to the people involved.

 

[nyaman]

Mr Somewhere, the reason people are making a fuss is mainly just a misunderstanding. What he was saying was disrespecting Jewish beliefs, not out of menace but just becuase he didn't understand the concept and meaning behind the skull cap. Nobody ever asked him to take place in any active practices by wearing it, they just asked for respect of their establishment. I think for the most part this has been cleared up, generally most will agree that it isn't right to force someone to take part in a ritual.