Remake Expectations
- Thread starter CriticalGaming
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I think what leads people to complain or not is, by and whole, very simple: Do they like the game? This, rather than any supposed faithfulness to the original property, story or game play, is what really counts.
If it's a good game, they will forgive whatever supposed sins a remake can commit. The Resident Evil 2 Remake changed a ton of things, but it's still a very cool game, so most people will forgive any changes and cut content. If it had been bad, people would have instead complained about the changes, and about how "It's not a Resident Evil game", but the underlying issue would be simply that they didn't like it. This is the true difference between something shitting on the original, or a "bold re-imagining".
So I don't think that faithfulness is all that important. A remake can be highly faithful, or not at all, but people will be okay with whatever it did, as long as they enjoy the final product. Their complaints will adapt themselves to the degree of faithfulness that was shown, but this is not really the measure that people use first and foremost, but rather a useful explanation in which to couch any other issues they had with the game.
If it's a good game, they will forgive whatever supposed sins a remake can commit. The Resident Evil 2 Remake changed a ton of things, but it's still a very cool game, so most people will forgive any changes and cut content. If it had been bad, people would have instead complained about the changes, and about how "It's not a Resident Evil game", but the underlying issue would be simply that they didn't like it. This is the true difference between something shitting on the original, or a "bold re-imagining".
So I don't think that faithfulness is all that important. A remake can be highly faithful, or not at all, but people will be okay with whatever it did, as long as they enjoy the final product. Their complaints will adapt themselves to the degree of faithfulness that was shown, but this is not really the measure that people use first and foremost, but rather a useful explanation in which to couch any other issues they had with the game.
I don't think this is always the case. Just taking FF7 as an example, as far as I can tell, most people have enjoyed the gameplay /combat and general feel of the Remake and think, as a game, it's good - but many have been annoyed at certain huge deviations from the plot at the end and them not being completely truthful about what the product was (and some with the amount of padding). I think it's led to some very conflicted thoughts for certain people.
In general, you might really like a remake but still have personally much-preferred something different - whether that's more or fewer changes from the original. I really like the RE2 Remake and I've started FF7 Remake now and I really like that too, but I there are things I definitely wish they'd done differently in both. Therefore, I think expectations still massively factor into it - whether you broadly liked it or not.
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Tbh, from what I've been hearing about FF7R, it actually fits pretty neatly into my theory. The issue with FF7 isn't that they changed the plot, but that the changed plot sounds pretty awful and dumb. Now I have my biases, and expect anything that Nomura is involved in to be awful and dumb, but I personally think that as long as the new story had been good, people would have been perfectly happy, and praised rather than complained about changes in this part of the game.
I think people are upset because they don't like the direction the story took at the end. I haven't seen any complaints outside of specifically what they did with the ending. Because throughout the rest of the game, it's pretty faithful if a bit expanded.
I have no idea what to think in the way people have reacted to FF7R, because I thought the meta-ness of all of it was awesome.
Hell Angry Joe just posted his review of the game having never played the original or really any other Final Fantasy game, and he love it. So perhaps it's just an overall bitterness towards Nomura in general and fans are just waiting for his bullshit so they can instantly reject it. I don't know. I don't get it.
Is it not more that some people think the ending feels a bit disjointed from everything else in the game up that that point, thematically? A bit forced and not really needed? Would you not have loved the game just as much if Roche had been the final boss instead at the end of the highway? They could have still introduced some of the fate stuff later down the line and just kept alluding to it instead and building more towards it gradually rather than being upfront about it so suddenly. Would have seemed more of a 'twist' that way. Just a thought.
I have games for gold and PS+. The Master Chief Collection came with my OG Xbox 1 around 2014. I'll buy someone's old stuff with collection including some remasters. So often, I'll get a remaster without even buying it. The new coat of shiny paint can be pleasant especially for instance, going from FFX on a PS2 25" 480i TV to a 39" 1080p TV on a PS3. FFX also allows you to choose from og to some new ideas: your choice. Vital when dealing with something like bad control on the OG RE series. I am miffed about not getting the whole FF7 story in the remake. I may, if I see a sale, get the PS1 mini that has FF7 on it just to get the full version (I was N64 only at the time).
Everything can always be done better. That's a given. And I'm really not a good judge of whether I would have liked a thing better, because I really like what they did here. Sure it escalates quickly, and has a little bit of a rush at the end but honestly a lot of JRPG's specifically have that problem so I'm kind of used to that.
Roche only being in that one part was odd, I feel like he was a waste of time but maybe he'll chase us down randomly throughout the FF7 saga as a kind of Gilgamesh gag.
Taking the practical evidence, like.... 30% of the game they released as Remake was the original's content. They aren't chopping it up for size economy when they're adding large scale chunks to the product. I doubt anyones expecting them to render the orignal overworld map in modern 3d, rather they'd travel down a road environment (or cutscene and end up at the next town). Chop out Cloud Strife the 9-5 wererat hunter chronicles, the second trip through Corneo's place, or all the resources dedicated to the new storyline, and they could probably get to Kalm (IIRC, not 100% on the name) or even Junon (the village bit before they actually infiltrate).
Also there was never any requirement for them to remake the game in bleeding edge photorealism. I think people would have been happy as long as the character models didn't have the proportions of Popeye the sailor. They could have chosen an art style and graphical fidelity that they could have accomplished given the scope of the game. But they never wanted to release it in a single game, because why release something as a single complete piece when you can charge them 5 or 6 times by breaking it up, right Hobbit movie?
The big problem is the game end on a promise of even bigger changes. So FF7R:1 is going to be more faithful to FF7 than FF7:R2 which is probably going to be more faithful than FF7:R3. By the end of the game/series almost nothing will be the same. They've already changed a lot of important event, no one in avalanche dies, Zack is alive, Sephiroth personally know Cloud and so on. For one it shows that they don't want main character to die, so odds are extremely good that Aerith will survive (although it'd be thematically cool if Tifa died instead, but won't happen). But more than that it has serious repercussion on the rest of the events, the event of Nibelheim are some of the best part of the game, but now that everything has been thrown out the windows odds they'll play out very differently, and the people who will craft the new event do not have a good track record.
And, yes, the change are mostly for the worse. In FF7 avalanche were a competent group who were able to carry out there missions, in FF7:R they're bumbling idiots (especially Jessy) who literally fail at everything they try to do. Similar Shinra go from ruthless capitalist to just self sabotaging morons. Cloud isn't a scrappy guy trying to pass off for a SOLDIER anymore, he's already a super badass who can supplex a train. Fighting Sephiroth 1/3 of the way trough the story is seriously going to cheapens every other time you fight him, which will make the final confrontation pretty lame (or they'll have a new last boss which will be even lamer).
I just wanted to add to this thread because I saw an FF7 fan post a really good analogy in a YouTube comment and I thought I'd share it because it kind of sums up why some people were disappointed in the ending...
"Ok, here's my take on this: Just because we all know that Romeo and Juliet commit suicide at the end, it does not mean that there's no value in having a great, faithful, movie adaptation. Now, imagine for a moment that there were no Romeo and Juliet movies in existence. You are a huge fan of Romeo and Juliet and are super excited when a movie is announced after so many years of waiting for it.
"So, you go watch the movie and... You're amazed, they really did a great job bringing these characters to life, the production quality is off-the charts, everything is going great, except... At some point during the movie there's an alien invasion and the tone and themes completely shift. Romeo and Juliet are now space marines fighting off the invasion.
"You (a big R&J fan) are very disappointed, this is not what you wanted and the people who made the movie told you that you were getting it. Worse still, a lot of people tell you that you're being negative or that they are excited about the alien invasion and, what's their main argument? Go read the book, it's still there for anyone to enjoy. Well, that's not the point, you wanted a R&J movie, in fact, you paid for one, you even got a VIP ticket and... that's not what you got. You got an alien invasion."
Dunno what you all think of that but I think it sums it up quite well why you shouldn't be perplexed at some people feeling disheartened by the FF7 remake. lol.
"Ok, here's my take on this: Just because we all know that Romeo and Juliet commit suicide at the end, it does not mean that there's no value in having a great, faithful, movie adaptation. Now, imagine for a moment that there were no Romeo and Juliet movies in existence. You are a huge fan of Romeo and Juliet and are super excited when a movie is announced after so many years of waiting for it.
"So, you go watch the movie and... You're amazed, they really did a great job bringing these characters to life, the production quality is off-the charts, everything is going great, except... At some point during the movie there's an alien invasion and the tone and themes completely shift. Romeo and Juliet are now space marines fighting off the invasion.
"You (a big R&J fan) are very disappointed, this is not what you wanted and the people who made the movie told you that you were getting it. Worse still, a lot of people tell you that you're being negative or that they are excited about the alien invasion and, what's their main argument? Go read the book, it's still there for anyone to enjoy. Well, that's not the point, you wanted a R&J movie, in fact, you paid for one, you even got a VIP ticket and... that's not what you got. You got an alien invasion."
Dunno what you all think of that but I think it sums it up quite well why you shouldn't be perplexed at some people feeling disheartened by the FF7 remake. lol.
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Everyone has their own expectations; the problem is some people want the exact same damn thing. Or their expectations are overly high that they're almost impossible to please.
I love the Resident Evil 2 remake, I like the RE3 remake, and the Crash Bandicoot remake trilogy what's some of the most fun I've ever had. The only problem with the crash remake is that the loading times were longer than the PS1 originals. That does not make sense. A remake doesn't have to follow every single path, and can make things different, so that there's a contrast between it and the older iteration. For example, when guardian heroes was remastered for Xbox live arcade. You can play the old version or the newer version that revamp the combat by making combos easier to pull off, redid the graphics, added some more dashes, and added a push block Perry system. You can do magic attacks either what's the input on the button system, or selected on a button wheel. Though doing a button combination would have them come out faster instead of just standing there and trying to select it. That's one way how to do a remake / remaster. But there is no perfect way. As for FF7, I already know about the ending, because I saw a Max's playthrough of it. Honestly, I don't have a problem with it. My main problem is that it split off into two parts. Otherwise, I got to give it to square for doing something different and not just making the exact same story.
Edit: Poor grammar from Google speak.
I love the Resident Evil 2 remake, I like the RE3 remake, and the Crash Bandicoot remake trilogy what's some of the most fun I've ever had. The only problem with the crash remake is that the loading times were longer than the PS1 originals. That does not make sense. A remake doesn't have to follow every single path, and can make things different, so that there's a contrast between it and the older iteration. For example, when guardian heroes was remastered for Xbox live arcade. You can play the old version or the newer version that revamp the combat by making combos easier to pull off, redid the graphics, added some more dashes, and added a push block Perry system. You can do magic attacks either what's the input on the button system, or selected on a button wheel. Though doing a button combination would have them come out faster instead of just standing there and trying to select it. That's one way how to do a remake / remaster. But there is no perfect way. As for FF7, I already know about the ending, because I saw a Max's playthrough of it. Honestly, I don't have a problem with it. My main problem is that it split off into two parts. Otherwise, I got to give it to square for doing something different and not just making the exact same story.
Edit: Poor grammar from Google speak.
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Personally, I think if a remake manages to surpass the original and brings it up-to-date for a new audience, it's done its job.
RE1 Remake is the gold standard for this as there's almost no point in playing the original now - and it added in a load of cool stuff as well.
RE2, I can see why they did stuff to bring new people in, but it's broadly stuck to the spirit of the original and plays a lot like it on hard mode in terms of the elements that create a resident evil game. Don't think it quite surpasses because of cutting certain things out, but it's great.
RE3 I felt went off the deep end a bit as they missed out so much stuff. I was disappointed in all the stuff they didn't include and how the style differed so much from what I liked about the original. If they'd have made more of it like the downtown area where nemy chased you around an area you needed to explore and backtrack in, it would have been much better. But I just don't feel the need to play it again as I did with RE2 Remake. OG's 100% better.
FF7 I can't for the life of me work out why they changed the ending so much and added the whispers when they were doing such a good job up to that point - just to create controversy it seems. They could have still got people talking by doing it a lot more subtly rather than beating you over the head with a meta-narrative and changing the themes of the original. A good game broadly though. It's very different to the original, but it's a lot of fun to play. The combat is more fun than the original. The story has not surpassed it and some are even saying it's kind of like a sequel because of the way they ended it. However, the characters are more well rounded, generally (for that point in the game anyway).
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You would know I guess. Nintendo has basically been remaking the same shit for the past 35 years.
To be fair.....it seems to work. I mean you ask any fan what they want in a sequel the answer usually is, "More of the same, but different, and also the same".
At least they're the same full games instead of a 3rd of them lol
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Is that seriously the only point you have against it? This is literally the second post in a row I've seen from you has just been this.
My main critiques of it were that:
Midgar suddenly had daytime, a presentation choice that took away from the oppressive dysgtopian nature.
They were clearly emulating Advent Children Cloud wiht some of the action sequences, and even his overall competence level. Wherein Cloud was a grunt security guard level dude for a year, then spent 5 years comatose and poisoned, being about a week out of a vegetative state. Sure, he has whatever superpoweres he has, but its too early on for him to have that level of skill in their use, and there's basically no way for him to have a lot of the advanced military training he displays unless Zack was for some reason reading off training manuals during their trip. In the original he's kept at a more similar power level to some of the other characters, and tends to be more evasive when they call upon anything that would actually require SOLDIER training. Again its more of a presentation thing.
Shinra blowing up the reactors instead of Avalanche. Its a deviation that strips some of the moral complexity away. Granted, the remake does seem to have a broader role for AVALANCHE in the plotline (theres other Avalanche cells for instance), and it would appear thats going to set up some logic for Wutai to be in the storyline when it was just a sidequest in the original. So thats kind of a mixed bag. In the original the Avalanche narrative arc just vanishes the second Sephiroth shows up, they keep the name but never touch on their purposes ever again.
As the additional stuff goes, hunting monsters and battle arenas just feel like padding. Sure they develop the BWJ as one or two note charactersi instead of singe-act redshirts, but they don't get any tremendous depth. The rules, power level and purpose of the Whispers seem to flip flop at random, which makes for a not particularly strong story element. And most of that seems to be a way to shoehorn in a giant JRPG final boss battle, and an encounter with Sepiroth when neither of the above occurred at this point.
There are some shifts which the Remake does well, to go with that. Aeris and Red both having mystical sensitivies also identify Sephiroth as a signifcant threat, which makes the decision to go after him not seem like the entire group abandoning mission A to go chase Cloud's personal vendetta. Zack hides Cloud before the Shinra assault, which at least makes some sense why he wasn't also killed (in FF7 original they just decide not to bother despite knowing he's also an experiment).