Richard Garriott: "Theme Park" MMOs are Dead

[Strazdas]

Charging real money for plots and buildings is part of Shroud Of The Avatar. I get videos from Richard Garriot explaining the game development, and one of the big things I get sent are offers to pre-buy houses and stuff that I can put on a plot if I decide to buy one. Those who pay hundreds or thousands of dollars though can apparently get a permanent plot to put structures on as opposed to having to buy one from Richard and then risk it reverting to the bank if you don't keep paying in-game taxes on it.

I see, that sounds like scamming. real life one.

It is true its hard to determien true size of playerbase, however the most accurate measure we have - paid accounts, is growing steadily. Bots are not really a big problem in Eve. yes, they exist, but i never saw them hampering my game.
Space MMO is a niche genre. Especially one that deals with actual space and not shitty interiors and stations. if i wanted to walk in grey coridors buy a shooter, i want to fly spaceships and eve delivers there. There were some attemts of replicating this with star wars and star trek, but most people really played it due to the big name and not due to genre.
I did mention hulkagedon in my post actually. The event was first created to gank mining bots actually. Of course there were griefers, but its not like it stopped mining. In fact i mined during the first hulkagedon all the way through and even named my Retriever Hulkagedon Veteran. I was never attacked. Once again, it requires you to use brains and brings some diversity to your game. If you want to farm most expensive stuff peacefully this is not a game for you. Its all about risk and reward ratio. Yes, hulkagedon is essentialy griefing event, but its not as bad as people make it out to be. Not to mention that my corpmates make a ton of profit selling new Hulks
I do play eve. My character is Strazdas Unstoppable [http://eveboard.com/pilot/Strazdas_Unstoppable]. I do not hide it. In fact i welcome you to come and message me ingame.
Yes, there are many complementary skills that add to currently existing ones, and some of them take a lnog time. you should nto expect to come day 1 and be as good as people with ten years under their belt. that desnt work in any mmo. Thing is, it is diminishing returns. That month spent training skill that gives you 0.5% advantange really wont be much if you dont know how to fly your ship.
Also not all skill patches are equal. As you can see from my sheet i have a lot of industrial skills and almost no gunnery skills. In fact, after 4 years i still cannot fit any battleship that is not missile based. A month old character could best me in that very easily. On the other hand if i spent 4 years making my battleships better, a month old character could produce A LOT more than i could. Its all about choices. Not to mention that a month is a very short period of time in eve.
Yes, there are frigates. We call them tacklers. They are essential and all group PVP would fail without them. SOmetimes spec-ops can do their job, if you want to risk that expensive ship for what is essentialy a "first target" job. If you think people PVP with faction ships you are sadly mistaken. Only the best PVPers can afford to constantly run Faction ships. PVP is not a job you get rich on.
In other MMOs you need to hit top levels. same as in eve. its just that in eve you have much more skill patchs to choose from and dont have to stick to one of them.

You know, the most popular game on the planet - League Of Legends, would like to talk to you about importance of PVE aspects. Pure PVP. Most popular. Where is your PVE now?

 

[Therumancer]

[

You know, the most popular game on the planet - League Of Legends, would like to talk to you about importance of PVE aspects. Pure PVP. Most popular. Where is your PVE now?

A game, which is debatably an MMO except when you use semantic arguments about the words involved in the term. Similar to how some people try and argue about what an RPG is based on the name "Role Playing Game" without understanding the actual backround or intent behind the words. The label meaning more than what it says. A point which is admittedly argued but has lead to the concession that things like LoL are "MOBAS" which puts them into an entirely different genere.

That said since we're discussing Theme Park and Sandbox MMOs, LoL has nothing to do with it. What's more your the one with the PVP fixation. Yes, most people PVP to some extent, but in an MMO it's generally a sideline. What's more there is a difference between PVP and griefing and harassment, which is where Sandbox games generally go when there is nothing else for players to do, which generally includes assigned battlegrounds and such. Whether you want to deny it or not, EVE is more about screwing with people than the game itself, which is why it's a niche, science fiction has little to
do with it as I said. The only real reason why sci-fi games have been niche games is because there haven't been many genuine attempts to develop them at a AAA level, ToR and SWG being the notable exceptions, things like STO, Earth And Beyond, etc... were developed on a comparative shoestring despite the hype, which is part of the reason STO which has seen a pretty big resurgence is such a mess, the basic game everything is built from is simply a giant mess that really can't be fixed without rebuilding the entire thing from scratch (I personally enjoy it despite this though).

Sure, people want to PVP, but the thing is in sandbox games it's more about "let's keep everyone locked in this city" (which you yourself said you've seen happen in other games), or with EVE "let's find ways to annoy people". In EVE for example you pretty much can't go anywhere without someone messing with you, even in safe sectors you have people logging in with characters like "Spaceship Barbie" and saying "I am leaving the game, here is a contract with all of my ISK I'm giving to the first person to give me a chunk of Veldspar" in order to get people to click the link fast and not notice it's selling a single chunk of Veldspar for millions of ISK. The entire thing based on getting people to quick fast, and how the EVE contract system is a mess where it's easy to make mistakes due to all of the contracts looking fundamentally the same except for a few differences. This is to say nothing for people doing crap like changing the names of items or using similar seeming items in contracts to cheat people, and whatever else. At the end of the day it's more people doing it to get their rocks off and having nothing better to do, except scam each other back and forth. Many are quite obvious about it in their Bio's, "Spaceship Barbie" for example (no idea if she's still around, and no, she did not get me) even keeps a running total of how much ISK she's scammed people out of in her bio.

Or better yet flying through "safe" space and seeing people spamming "Hey send me any amount of ISK and I'll double it, I'm leaving EVE and want to give away my fortune to brave people" again, and again, and again. I doubt many people fall for it, but the thing is that it's constant from people that literally have nothing better to do. What's more the reason why EVE has so many "players" is because so many bored people who do like the game have a "real" account and then one or two other accounts to run bots and basically spam high sec and annoy people or whatever.

The point isn't me knocking EVE, since it's really not about EVE, it's more about the problems with a pure sandbox game and why I do not think that will ever be the future. Theme Park MMOS have their own set of problems, and I do agree we need to get away from the way they are set up now, but I think the future is with hybrid games, not with pure sandbox games.

As far as Richard running a scam, I wouldn't go that far. I think he's insane, but I think his basic motivation is looking at the number of people who spent hundreds of hours running shops in games like UO and SWG and thinking he can get people to pay for the enjoyment of doing that. Especially seeing as there are free to play MMOs, largely Asian, that sell the ability to set up and run a stall for X number of hours for real money using tokens and stuff. What he's trying to do seems to be a variation on that, and how Linden Labs was able to make a good chunk of change for a while by selling game space for people to build on with "Second Life".

From what I see Richard seems less interested in making a game, than the financial aspects that come from him being able to use a game to become a virtual land tycoon so to speak. Given some things I read about him being interested in VR as a concept long before it became quite as popular in the media, I wouldn't be surprised if he was also thinking in terms of people in novels who got rich more or less that way by selling VR property in stories like "A Point Of Honor" and perhaps more relevantly the guys running the parks in the "Dreampark" books. With micro transactions already taking place he seems to be wanting to try and take it to the next level so to speak by making a game entirely based on the idea of renting non-existent real estate.

 

[Parnage]

Richard Garriot is the reason you have mmo's at all. Shut your dirty heathen mouths speakin ill of the rpg father. You think any of them big publisher's would of bothered to pick up your favorite title if it wasn't for the ultima franchise paving it's way with blood sweat and EA knifing them in the back for faster release/do it or else controls?

In all seriousness most of Lord british's ideas are good ones and many of the ones even in his "failed" projects where not so much bad ideas as ahead of it's time. Dynamic events in the world, combat that was more tactical then stand there and hit a button till enemy is dead, questing in a mmo that had some effect on the world all things Rasa had thou not as refined as what you see now in the likes of the current mmo's.

*shrug* When he speaks you should listen, if only because more then likely he's onto something if past actions mean anything.

Also I can't help but laugh at this conspiracy theory that he's setting himself up as a virtual landlord. paying ingame tax's to have something/use something isn't anything new and it solves the issue of a house in the world being not used better then it just falling over and everything inside becoming free to loot ala UO.

 

[Strazdas]

[

You know, the most popular game on the planet - League Of Legends, would like to talk to you about importance of PVE aspects. Pure PVP. Most popular. Where is your PVE now?

A game, which is debatably an MMO except when you use semantic arguments about the words involved in the term. Similar to how some people try and argue about what an RPG is based on the name "Role Playing Game" without understanding the actual backround or intent behind the words. The label meaning more than what it says. A point which is admittedly argued but has lead to the concession that things like LoL are "MOBAS" which puts them into an entirely different genere.

A whole paragraph denying something i never claimed.

That said since we're discussing Theme Park and Sandbox MMOs, LoL has nothing to do with it. What's more your the one with the PVP fixation. Yes, most people PVP to some extent, but in an MMO it's generally a sideline. What's more there is a difference between PVP and griefing and harassment, which is where Sandbox games generally go when there is nothing else for players to do, which generally includes assigned battlegrounds and such. Whether you want to deny it or not, EVE is more about screwing with people than the game itself, which is why it's a niche, science fiction has little to
do with it as I said. The only real reason why sci-fi games have been niche games is because there haven't been many genuine attempts to develop them at a AAA level, ToR and SWG being the notable exceptions, things like STO, Earth And Beyond, etc... were developed on a comparative shoestring despite the hype, which is part of the reason STO which has seen a pretty big resurgence is such a mess, the basic game everything is built from is simply a giant mess that really can't be fixed without rebuilding the entire thing from scratch (I personally enjoy it despite this though).

MMOs live on PVP because PVP is the endgame. Granted it is not for everyone, and those people do other things, but most people PVP, as you yourself said. And PVP is a sideline only in bad MMOs. Heck, whole WOW world is based on PVP between two factions.
Like i said, a sandbox that gives players nothing to do is a bad sandbox, and yes such sandbox will bring a lot of griefing.
EVE is a game all about players. Player itneraction is EVE, everything else is sideline. And thats why it works. And its not niche because of that, we already talked about this.

Sure, people want to PVP, but the thing is in sandbox games it's more about "let's keep everyone locked in this city" (which you yourself said you've seen happen in other games), or with EVE "let's find ways to annoy people". In EVE for example you pretty much can't go anywhere without someone messing with you, even in safe sectors you have people logging in with characters like "Spaceship Barbie" and saying "I am leaving the game, here is a contract with all of my ISK I'm giving to the first person to give me a chunk of Veldspar" in order to get people to click the link fast and not notice it's selling a single chunk of Veldspar for millions of ISK. The entire thing based on getting people to quick fast, and how the EVE contract system is a mess where it's easy to make mistakes due to all of the contracts looking fundamentally the same except for a few differences. This is to say nothing for people doing crap like changing the names of items or using similar seeming items in contracts to cheat people, and whatever else. At the end of the day it's more people doing it to get their rocks off and having nothing better to do, except scam each other back and forth. Many are quite obvious about it in their Bio's, "Spaceship Barbie" for example (no idea if she's still around, and no, she did not get me) even keeps a running total of how much ISK she's scammed people out of in her bio.

PVP in sandbox can be two ways:
1. if players have nothing to do but annoying eachother - thats what tiheil do.
2. If players can actuially build thier game world, they will be PVPing, fighting for resources and whatnot, not annyoying eachother.
As for your space barbie example. You have to be really really stupid to accept trades without looking at whats offered. what you get and what you pay is very clearly defined in the contracts. you will only get tricked if you have brain seizure and forget how to read. There is an old saying: A fool and his money is soon parted.

Or better yet flying through "safe" space and seeing people spamming "Hey send me any amount of ISK and I'll double it, I'm leaving EVE and want to give away my fortune to brave people" again, and again, and again. I doubt many people fall for it, but the thing is that it's constant from people that literally have nothing better to do. What's more the reason why EVE has so many "players" is because so many bored people who do like the game have a "real" account and then one or two other accounts to run bots and basically spam high sec and annoy people or whatever.

This is no different really. Look at the character, created yesterday, yeah "fortune". Noone is forcing you to accept these messages. in fact, you can block them quite easily and even jita local gets into normal chat mode after that.

The point isn't me knocking EVE, since it's really not about EVE, it's more about the problems with a pure sandbox game and why I do not think that will ever be the future. Theme Park MMOS have their own set of problems, and I do agree we need to get away from the way they are set up now, but I think the future is with hybrid games, not with pure sandbox games.

Hybrids are the problem. they neither have enough theme park elements to be attractive enough for these palyers, nor enough sandbox elements to make sandbox about more than griefing.

Richard Garriot is the reason you have mmo's at all. Shut your dirty heathen mouths speakin ill of the rpg father. You think any of them big publisher's would of bothered to pick up your favorite title if it wasn't for the ultima franchise paving it's way with blood sweat and EA knifing them in the back for faster release/do it or else controls?

Haha, no. MMOs existed way way before graphics was there. Remmeber Muds?
Not to mention that Ultima wasnt First nor best Graphic MMO out there. In fact the oldest graphic MMO is still running.

His ideas may be good, but thats all they are - ideas. Because his execution is terrible.

 

[Vylox]

I absolutely refuse to take anything that is said by the op or WarCry seriously, ever.

Simple fact, Ultima Online was not the original or first MMO. There were plenty previous to the development of Ultima Online, in the 1980s. While they were not termed MMOs at the time, that is what they were. Every single last text based MUD is in fact an MMO. While they did not have any real graphics, and generally had small relatively localized player bases, they are still MMOs. And they were able to support what was considered a massive amount of players for their time.

 

[Jessta]

What I really want is an MMO where you can carve out your own little niche in the world to call your own, maybe take some of those spoils of war and build a house or rope together a guild and purchase a small town, maybe open up your own shop or farm or whatever. Like I still enjoy the idea of a fantasy theme world full of danger. I don't just want something like second life, combat should still be there I just like the idea of combat for more than combats sake, especially when the combat is boring and monotonous like it has been in every MMO to date.

The problem I've had with quests in most MMO's so far hasn't been that I don't feel like I'm interacting with the NPCs enough but has been more that:
A. They hold no weight since once I'm finished with the quest the only difference is usually a small experience gain and a bushel of apples or some shit leaving most quests synonymous with a part time job in most MMO's and B. That they all sort of follow a template of do X and receive Y usually being retrieve or kill A then return to B for your reward.

 

[Realitycrash]

SotA will feature no quest log, for instance, and likewise will require players to communicate with NPCs via typed English text, rather than dialogue options.

REALLY!? We're back to <url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouCantGetYeFlask>Ye Can't Get Ye Flask?. How on Earth is this a good idea? I'm sure plenty of you remember the "fun" part of old Sierra games that required you to guess-the-verb to proceed. And yes, I am sure it is more advanced nowdays, but I doubt it is (or ever will) good enough to provide a non-frustrating, smooth experience.