Rise of the Roguelike

Jason Rayes

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
Jason Rayes said:
Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
Very few Roguelikes have been made in the past decade, although it has definitely increased. Only about 5 have actually been made. Unless Tales of Maj'Eyal is (never heard of it) then only Dungeons of Dredmor is a Roguelike.

ANd Rouge Legacy is not a Roguelike or a Roguelite. Its a straight platformer.

I prefer the better term for what your describing, Roguelite.
I guess, I cut my teeth on Nethack after all so I can agree these are definitely lighter games, but they are also introducing the ideas to a new and wider audience and I think that is a good thing. The current definition pretty much means anything with procedurally generated levels, high difficulty and permanent death.

As for ToME, here is a trailer. Check it out, this one is definitely in the original definition of a roguelike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj9pT0V56U0
Yep, and while you didn't mention it, Rogue Legacy does not have perma-death.

Regardless, a Roguelite is a game that has elements that defined Rogue, but has completely different gameplay. A Roguelike is a game that has similar gameplay, which is quite rare. It also doesn't have to be difficult or even procedural generation, although that is extremely rare. A good example to use is Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, because it is easy and does not have perma-death.
Or even Diablo to name a very popular series, it very much has its roots in the original roguelikes. I never played Rogue myself, it had been superseded by games such as Nethack by the time I found the genre. I did play a simplistic one called Larn before I found Nethack so I guess technically it was my first, Nethack was simply the first one I got really addicted to.
 

Tarfeather

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
Looking at that website for 5 minutes, I can already see its a circle jerk. "Based on intrinsic, complex design and a use of ASCII art" that is not a Roguelike. Dungeons of Dreadmore is a Roguelike, it is quite simple, uses 2D art, and is based on long runs over constant replay-ability.
Erm.. The way you use the term "circle jerk" is pretty much meaningless. The term "roguelike" could be used to describe any game that has certain key features of rogue, two of which were ASCII art and high complexity(compared to its graphics, as well as other games of its time). The key point is that making these kinds of games works pretty well for a hobby project, so yeah, there exists a community that has reshaped the word roguelike to mean "game that's simple to make for non-artsy people due to ASCII graphics, yet still fun to play"(for instance, some people actually consider Dwarf Fortress a roguelike). Sure, that might not be how you define the word, but it's definitely caught on within a certain demographic.

I'm fine calling a game like Dungeons of Dreadmore or even FTL a roguelike, but it's definitely a different "direction". For instance, unlike the original rogue, such games rely on an actual artist to contribute to the project. They're also aimed at a different market, as they rely on people who are used to modern gaming conventions to actually go ahead and buy the game. Personally, I find this direction much less interesting, because despite these titles calling themselves "indie", they really lack the kind of innovation and experimentation that games like DF, Cataclysm, DCSS, ToME4 etc. can afford due to their cheap graphics and non-profit-oriented nature.
 

Jason Rayes

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
Nethack has the same gameplay as Rogue. Diablo does not have random generation, does not have perma death and doesn't possess even remotely similar gameplay. Its an Action RPG, not a Rogue-anything.
Uhh, yes I know Nethack was a roguelike.

And I was saying Diablo had its roots in Rougelikes. The dungeons in Diablo by the way, at least the first one were randomly genereated. And I wasn't saying it was a roguelike I was saying thats where its roots were. Anyway, this is all semantics, words mean what the majority say they mean, despite whatever strict definition might say or historical origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change
 

Tarfeather

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Jason Rayes said:
Anyway, this is all semantics, words mean what the majority say they mean, despite whatever strict definition might say or historical origin.
Pfft, oversimplify much? Words mean what you interpret them to mean. There are very many factors in this, for instance "who is saying it" and "who are they saying it to"?
 

Jason Rayes

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ElMinotoro said:
Hand of Fate?
Hand of Fate.

The words I have for it will not do it justice.
This is still in early access so I haven't given it a shot, its fully playable?

Imperioratorex Caprae said:
One Way Hero is one of my favorite short-time wasters, FTL bane to my existence yet highly addicting... I like the idea of roguelikes as long as they're engaging and not super punishingly difficult. There's reasonable difficulty and then there's attempting to emulate the frustration of bad Sonic/Mario physics and Dark/Demon's Souls unforgiving nature.
One Way Hero looks pretty funny, I kinda like the way you must press forward regardless. Have you tried Half Minute Hero that tries to fit the skeleton of an entire JRPG into a 30 second game.
 

Jason Rayes

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Tarfeather said:
Jason Rayes said:
Anyway, this is all semantics, words mean what the majority say they mean, despite whatever strict definition might say or historical origin.
Pfft, oversimplify much? Words mean what you interpret them to mean. There are very many factors in this, for instance "who is saying it" and "who are they saying it to"?
Sigh, you to? It might have been an oversimplification but you know what? I just was trying to put an end to a derailing. This was supposed to be a thread for people to discuss games they like. Not argue over the meaning of words. Now if you like, you and I can go to private messages and discuss definitions and the fluidity of language further, but lets leave the thread itself on topic ok? Send a message to my box and we can further the linguistic debate there.
 

ElMinotoro

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Jason Rayes said:
ElMinotoro said:
Hand of Fate?
Hand of Fate.

The words I have for it will not do it justice.
This is still in early access so I haven't given it a shot, its fully playable?
Absolutely. Not all the mechanics work quite how they should, nor is all the content there. But it's solid and inherently playable. There's 12 champions to beat and I played this game for at least 16 hours getting beating 10. I'm a little burned out on it right now so I figure I'll play other games for a bit, maybe until an update.

I cannot overstate how clever this game is, incorporating arena combat, deck building and rogue-like features into this whole. There are some crap encounters called "Ratmen Hunting", the reward is crap and the three cards take up space you could use for more awesome encounters. There is an encounter called "Culling the Ratmen", and successfully completing it will allow you to remove the ratmen cards. I found this an amazing way to blend mechanics and narrative. It's maybe not worth $25 right now, but I am certain it will be.
 

Jason Rayes

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ElMinotoro said:
Absolutely. Not all the mechanics work quite how they should, nor is all the content there. But it's solid and inherently playable. There's 12 champions to beat and I played this game for at least 16 hours getting beating 10. I'm a little burned out on it right now so I figure I'll play other games for a bit, maybe until an update.

I cannot overstate how clever this game is, incorporating arena combat, deck building and rogue-like features into this whole. There are some crap encounters called "Ratmen Hunting", the reward is crap and the three cards take up space you could use for more awesome encounters. There is an encounter called "Culling the Ratmen", and successfully completing it will allow you to remove the ratmen cards. I found this an amazing way to blend mechanics and narrative. It's maybe not worth $25 right now, but I am certain it will be.
Cool, Ill have to give it a shot. Ive checked it out before and the graphics look pretty good and I thought the card mechanic looked neat (Well, after I finish Wasteland 2 which is due soon)
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Jason Rayes said:
nomotog said:
I think it's just because it's a really flat really samey experience. (It lacks difference in kind.) I mean how often do your play through of the pit feel different? Like in BOI, when you find mom's knife, that totally changes the way you play. (This goes for nearly all items too.) In the pit, you can change your class and still find yourself playing in the same way. A scout doesn't feel different from a engineer or marine.
Yeah I do agree, it is very samey. The classes...well I find I survive longer as the Marine and I unlock more recipes and information as a technical class which is pretty much as you expect. Its not much but that stuff you unlock, crafting recipes, monster information, is stored away and carried over to future playthroughs. Perhaps that sameyness is what holds it back from being better than just fair. I still have it installed though :)

I honestly haven't touched any of the psychic stuff they added in that DLC, maybe that adds some variety?
Yes. The psychic stuff adds powers that mix up the game a fair amount. Playing a psychic plays a little differently then playing the base classes. Then the classes they added after that each have more exotic details. Like there is one that can't take off their armor without drying out. I don't think it completely fixes it, but it helps.
 

Jason Rayes

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nomotog said:
Yes. The psychic stuff adds powers that mix up the game a fair amount. Playing a psychic plays a little differently then playing the base classes. Then the classes they added after that each have more exotic details. Like there is one that can't take off their armor without drying out. I don't think it completely fixes it, but it helps.
It's definitely much better with those extra classes, the vanilla game only came with three classes that really weren't that much different to each other so after you'd played those out there wasn't much to do. I actually didn't come back to it until after it was in its current state and I've found it much more enjoyable. A good filler for when Im between games.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
Tarfeather said:
Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
Looking at that website for 5 minutes, I can already see its a circle jerk. "Based on intrinsic, complex design and a use of ASCII art" that is not a Roguelike. Dungeons of Dreadmore is a Roguelike, it is quite simple, uses 2D art, and is based on long runs over constant replay-ability.
Erm.. The way you use the term "circle jerk" is pretty much meaningless. The term "roguelike" could be used to describe any game that has certain key features of rogue, two of which were ASCII art and high complexity(compared to its graphics, as well as other games of its time). The key point is that making these kinds of games works pretty well for a hobby project, so yeah, there exists a community that has reshaped the word roguelike to mean "game that's simple to make for non-artsy people due to ASCII graphics, yet still fun to play"(for instance, some people actually consider Dwarf Fortress a roguelike). Sure, that might not be how you define the word, but it's definitely caught on within a certain demographic.

I'm fine calling a game like Dungeons of Dreadmore or even FTL a roguelike, but it's definitely a different "direction". For instance, unlike the original rogue, such games rely on an actual artist to contribute to the project. They're also aimed at a different market, as they rely on people who are used to modern gaming conventions to actually go ahead and buy the game. Personally, I find this direction much less interesting, because despite these titles calling themselves "indie", they really lack the kind of innovation and experimentation that games like DF, Cataclysm, DCSS, ToME4 etc. can afford due to their cheap graphics and non-profit-oriented nature.
Ok that is bullshit. If you do that, you have made the term meaningless. The reason the genre term Roguelite was made was to lower the amount of games it covered.
That is why we should not use it. Forget the old official meaning of the word. It's too small too limiting. The rougelikes we are getting now are mostly different then the old ones, but that's not a bad thing. It's expanding the genera showing what else you can do. If you just say oh no all those new neat ideas don't count, then you basically going to stagnate.
 

Jason Rayes

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snowpuppy said:
Stone Soup, classic, well developed and fun.
I remember trying this out years ago, is it still supported out of curiosity? I know a lot of these old school ones sort of go on indefinite hiatus. Not that that is a problem, they normal have a huge wealth of content anyway. I seem to recall it was a Nethack variant, or inspired by it.
 
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Has anyone tried here DoomRL? It's a rougelike using the setting of Doom (duh). It was recommended to me by a friend a while back,when we were talking about rougelikes. I've played it a bit and it kicks my ass every single time. Apart from that, I've played the usuals, Dungeons of Dredmor, FTL and Binding of Isaac, as well as a jrpg with rougelike elements (while there is no permadeath, every time you enter a new set of maps, you start at level 1 and if you are defeated you lose all your held items) called Guided Fate Paradox. The story is pretty naff (it's a jrpg, what do you expect?) and the characters are largely forgettable, but the gameplay is surprisingly pretty good, all things considered.
 

yaydod

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Well there is one roguelike that i am digging at the moment, it is [URL="{url}" (http://store.steampowered.com/app/262790/)]Our Darker Purpose[/URL], which has very similar gameplay to the binding of Isaac but does enough to not be just a clone.

I personally really dig the setting, a strange school were the students went wild, the musics are really really nice and it has a distinct art style.

The game has a few interesting things especially in the randomization section, it has the same thing as in isaac (money, health which are juice boxes here, items...) and after each boss you select which path you choose. There are several factors :

- The special effect of the room, for example you can have a "Power struggle" which means more mini-bosses (they always drop an item) and so probably more risk. There are a bunch more with interesting name and flavor text.

-The reward you will get if you complete the level (higher = harder)

-With a certain item you can see which boss you will fight


There also is an ingame achievement system which allows you to unlock items and perks (like in isaac), which all come with some very nice lore/flavor text.

I also fin there is a bigger emphasis on risk-reward in [URL="{url}" (http://store.steampowered.com/app/262790/)]Our Darker Purpose[/URL], for example you have the sock puppets, they add 1 projectile to your main attack BUT you must remain still to use it. There is also a lvl up system for each run, when you lvl up you must choose between two lessons they always give you some thing, but they can also ask something in return for example you can get an extra life (instant respawn in the room) but you loose 25 max health (you start with 100).

So there, i would suggest the isaac fans to try it out, you will be on familiar grounds (a bit like LoL and DotA) but it will kick your teeth out ;p
 

Frission

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FTL: Faster than Light and Rogue Legacy are fun and well made. That's why they are a success.
 

Jason Rayes

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The Eupho Guy said:
Has anyone tried here DoomRL?
The DoomRL was fun, I liked the way it uses all the original sound effects from the game. The turn based nature makes it a totally different beast that its FPS origins and I know its heretical but dare I say that makes it better? :)

yaydod said:
Well there is one roguelike that i am digging at the moment, it is [URL="{url}" (http://store.steampowered.com/app/262790/)]Our Darker Purpose[/URL], which has very similar gameplay to the binding of Isaac but does enough to not be just a clone.
I actually bought this but haven't tried it (Another on my pile of shame)I liked it's dark style that somehow kind of reminded me of Cthulhu meets Tim Burton. It's nice to know that its actually good and that I didn't waste my money.