Rogue One may be the worst Star Wars movie to date

[Darth Rosenberg]

I think it's an absurd notion to try to paint it as the worst yet. I doubt any conscious effort could make anything approaching the amateurish guff of the prequels, let alone match them by accident.

It was arguably completely inessential in terms of story, but as a proof of concept for a grittier, bleaker Star Wars film made with tremendous craft? It knocked it out the park. Some of the best visuals seen in any SW film yet, too.

I rather loved it for how it told its story, not for its story or characters, per se (though I didn't have any real issue with its stripped back character narrative). But after TFA gave us SW's soul back, Rogue One had some leeway to indulge itself. I ultimately really enjoyed how far it took the story up to A New Hope's beginning, as well.

 

[happyninja42]

I think it's an absurd notion to try to paint it as the worst yet. I doubt any conscious effort could make anything approaching the amateurish guff of the prequels, let alone match them by accident.

It was arguably completely inessential in terms of story, but as a proof of concept for a grittier, bleaker Star Wars film made with tremendous craft? It knocked it out the park. Some of the best visuals seen in any SW film yet, too.

I rather loved it for how it told its story, not for its story or characters, per se (though I didn't have any real issue with its stripped back character narrative). But after TFA gave us SW's soul back, Rogue One had some leeway to indulge itself. I ultimately really enjoyed how far it took the story up to A New Hope's beginning, as well.

Eh, I personally wasn't too impressed with it. The lack of character development made me totally uninvested when they died. I just didn't care, hell half of them I didn't even know their names, they were so "placeholder" in their design.

What they did feel like though, was a tabletop gaming group, each with their own specialization, and paper-thin backstories that only vaguely justify the bunch of them joining together and do an adventure. It just happens to be a session that ends with a Total Player Kill event.

But as a movie, I just never cared. Characters did things that didn't make sense motivationally, and they even had something in it that reminded me of Galaxy Quest. That closing/opening hatch that Jan had to climb through?


I give the movie a 6/10. It was ok, had several issues that annoyed me or pulled me out of the story, didn't grab me emotionally with the protagonists, and overall was just a "meh" experience. I had more emotional reaction to the rebel soldier at the door, frantically screaming at someone to help them when Vader shows up, and then just begging for them to take the plans when he knows he's going to die. That dude had like 2 minutes of screen time, and he got more emotional reaction from me than 2 hours of the other people. So yeah, not really written well, or acted well in my opinion.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So yeah, not really written well, or acted well in my opinion.

I don't know that it's fair to blame the actors. There are some good actors in that cast, capable of doing some good work. But there isn't much for them to hook into in terms of characterization.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

I just didn't care, hell half of them I didn't even know their names, they were so "placeholder" in their design.

I didn't mind that. Ideally they could've just cut the ensemble down a little, but Jyn was our primary perspective on the story and world, so I felt it worked as well as it could.

That dude had like 2 minutes of screen time, and he got more emotional reaction from me than 2 hours of the other people. So yeah, not really written well, or acted well in my opinion.

I think critising the acting in it is a bit daft and very unfair. Going with just Mikkelson, Mendelsohn, Jones and Yen, none of them exactly slacked off.

As for emotionality?

Spoiler

I found Mikkelson's message to his daughter very moving, K-2SO's death quite affecting, and Jyn and Cassian's death suitably bittersweet.

Hell, I even had sympathy for Krennic at various points. I cared more about those characters and scenes than in anything in the braindead, soulless prequels.

I wouldn't give it a score out of 10 as I feel scores are a terrible way to gauge a film's general qualities, but in terms of the SW films I'd say it's better than any of the prequels, and arguably, technically, a notch above Jedi. The originals, after all, aren't actually that good as films when the fanboy/fanboygirl hat's taken off.

 

[happyninja42]

So yeah, not really written well, or acted well in my opinion.

I don't know that it's fair to blame the actors. There are some good actors in that cast, capable of doing some good work. But there isn't much for them to hook into in terms of characterization.

Eh, maybe it's just bad writing, but I think there are plenty of scenes, with the lines they had, that just didn't come across well. Everyone just seemed bored with what they were doing. Maybe that's a direction issue, and the director told them all to act disinterested or something. But it could also be bad acting. Just because they are good actors, doesn't mean they can't be bad actors at times. Every actor has a few shit performances in their career, this felt like some of those to me.

I just didn't care, hell half of them I didn't even know their names, they were so "placeholder" in their design.

I didn't mind that. Ideally they could've just cut the ensemble down a little, but Jyn was our primary perspective on the story and world, so I felt it worked as well as it could.

Yeah but I didn't care about Jyn either. She spent 90% of that film, also not giving a shit about anything but herself, and then she sees her dad, and then turns around and suddenly is berating the Rebellion for wanting to run? I'm sorry but where does she get off condemning them? Her "rally the troops" speech felt incredibly hollow to me, given that she was exactly like they were, not 10 minutes before in the movie. She just didn't inspire me to care about her plight, so I didn't care about what happened to her at all.

That dude had like 2 minutes of screen time, and he got more emotional reaction from me than 2 hours of the other people. So yeah, not really written well, or acted well in my opinion.

I think critising the acting in it is a bit daft and very unfair. Going with just Mikkelson, Mendelsohn, Jones and Yen, none of them exactly slacked off.

I don't think it's daft or unfair at all. Like I said in response to Guppy's comment, just because they are good actors, doesn't mean they can't give shit performances. I mean, look at Forest Whitaker's character. He's a joke, across the entire internet. Mr. Whitaker is a fantastic actor, but that performance was terrible, it was a walking joke. Now maybe he was told to act it like that, and if so, he has my sympathies, but I don't believe he couldn't find a way to make that come across with more feeling and gravitas. But hey, maybe he did better takes, that the director didn't choose for the final edit. I don't know, but what I saw on screen was not good, for just about any of them.

As for emotionality?

Spoiler

I found Mikkelson's message to his daughter very moving, K-2SO's death quite affecting, and Jyn and Cassian's death suitably bittersweet.

Hell, I even had sympathy for Krennic at various points. I cared more about those characters and scenes than in anything in the braindead, soulless prequels.

See his message just felt like a letter to the fans to get them to shut up about the "obvious flaw in the design". He felt repetitive too, unnaturally repetitive. He kept saying that he didn't want to work for them, over and over. Yeah I get that he probably felt guilty, and wanted to hammer that home, but the delivery felt very scripted. I didn't get any emotional reaction to that. Like I said, it didn't feel like a "letter to my daughter" but a "letter to Star Wars nerds".

I wouldn't give it a score out of 10 as I feel scores are a terrible way to gauge a film's general qualities, but in terms of the SW films I'd say it's better than any of the prequels, and arguably, technically, a notch above Jedi. The originals, after all, aren't actually that good as films when the fanboy/fanboygirl hat's taken off.

I think a scoring system is just fine, if you are consistent with the rating system. For me, a 5/10 is an average movie. It didn't do anything great, but it didn't do anything absolutely terrible either. A 6/10 is a movie that was slightly better than average, but still didn't really blow me away, or evoke any emotional reactions. Just saying a movie is "good" or "bad' doesn't really give anyone else a metric to understand what you mean. What's good to you could be different to me. For example, you saying it's better than the prequels doesn't really say much for me, as I don't really dislike the prequels much. I don't think they are very good, but I don't think they are the festering cancers on the franchise that a lot of fans think they are. So to me, you are basically saying "it's better than an average/ok movie that is one of the prequels". And saying it's better than Jedi, also doesn't say anything, because most fans think Jedi sucked, because Ewoks, and merchandising, etc etc. Personally I think Jedi is the best of the original trilogy, so you saying it's better than Jedi, means, to me, it's the best movie of all Star Wars movies, and I don't agree, like at all. So, we can bounce terminology back and forth about good/bad/better, etc, or I can just give you a score and be done with it in a few words. xD I prefer brevity when possible.

But I don't think the originals are perfect movies either, they have their flaws, all movies do. I would say that they all fall into the range of 7/10-8.5/10, maybe 9/10 for Jedi personally. They weren't perfect, but I enjoy them to this day, they still effect me emotionally, and I never get tired of watching them. So they are higher up on the scale. The prequels are about equal with Rogue 1, and get about 5-6/10.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Just watched Rouge One a couple days ago and it's pretty great.

Yeah, the mid-act is muddled in the same way ensemble casts tend to be, but even then I ended up liking it. Saw was as violent and extremist as you know he'd end up being if you watched Clone Wars, Cassian showed that even when a cause is just, espionage never is, the the Rebal Alliance shows why it's called an alliance with its disparate reaction to the Death Star. (I mean, when the whole of the Rebal Fleet is already outmatched before the planet killing superweapon shows up, what the hell)

Then you've got the classic commando movie structure of "character introduction-minor action set piece-major action set piece", and it's always the latter that pays for the ticket. Even after shelling out $46.50 for me and two others to see it in IMAX, I got my money's worth.

Things go well at the onset: Jon, Cassian, and K2SO infiltratethe base, the rest of the rebels infiltrate the landing pads, some fun comm misdirection happens, etc. Then small problems start cropping up, followed by big ones. Continued escalation drags more troops to the surface, draws the Rebel Fleet into direct action against the Imperials. And so, the Ghost makes an appearance, there aren't any Capital ships to defend Yavin, there's holes in fighter squadrons for opportunistic young pilots to fill, support vehicles that would logically exist but have never showen up before make an appearance, and we see a major (if hastily assembled) action by the rebellion get repulsed by an Inperial garrison and minor fleet reinforcements. Kinda highlights the power gulf between the factions.

In short, I finally have a better measuring stick for action set pieces in 21st century movies that's better than Cap 2's ship infiltration. It's like they made this movie for me specifically.

 

[happyninja42]

Just watched Rouge One a couple days ago and it's pretty great.

Yeah, the mid-act is muddled in the same way ensemble casts tend to be, but even then I ended up liking it. Saw was as violent and extremist as you know he'd end up being if you watched Clone Wars, Cassian showed that even when a cause is just, espionage never is, the the Rebal Alliance shows why it's called an alliance with its disparate reaction to the Death Star. (I mean, when the whole of the Rebal Fleet is already outmatched before the planet killing superweapon shows up, what the hell)

Then you've got the classic commando movie structure of "character introduction-minor action set piece-major action set piece", and it's always the latter that pays for the ticket. Even after shelling out $46.50 for me and two others to see it in IMAX, I got my money's worth.

Things go well at the onset: Jon, Cassian, and K2SO infiltratethe base, the rest of the rebels infiltrate the landing pads, some fun comm misdirection happens, etc. Then small problems start cropping up, followed by big ones. Continued escalation drags more troops to the surface, draws the Rebel Fleet into direct action against the Imperials. And so, the Ghost makes an appearance, there aren't any Capital ships to defend Yavin, there's holes in fighter squadrons for opportunistic young pilots to fill, support vehicles that would logically exist but have never showen up before make an appearance, and we see a major (if hastily assembled) action by the rebellion get repulsed by an Inperial garrison and minor fleet reinforcements. Kinda highlights the power gulf between the factions.

In short, I finally have a better measuring stick for action set pieces in 21st century movies that's better than Cap 2's ship infiltration. It's like they made this movie for me specifically.

Glad you enjoyed it, I don't share your thoughts on how good it was, but to each their own.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

Just saying a movie is "good" or "bad' doesn't really give anyone else a metric to understand what you mean. What's good to you could be different to me.

Forgive the facetiousness, but: well duh? Hence why I think scores are inane; you can't boil art/culture down to an abstract number. Even going with the general '5 = average', that's meaningless in and of itself, because some might adore an 'average' film, whilst others might loathe it, and everything in between.

Teh internetz is so often the enemy of nuance - a film review is in the details, and in how well someone can translate the film's identity whilst being transparent about subjective biases, be it in a written or video review. If someone wishes to find out about a film's nature - read or watch a review.

I quite like Jeremy Jahns' system, but at the end of the day his actual review is the only thing that has merit, or communicates anything.

I prefer brevity when possible.

'Cept it saves no one any time whatsoever. A score is just a number - the follow-up question will/should always be 'Why did you think it was a 1/5/10?'. Brevity would surely mean ditching scores and cutting straight to the nuanced, contextual chase...

If we're blokishly setting out the SW series in terms of quality/which I like the most? It's tricky to say. Arguably, for any fan of the originals growing up, they are next to impossible to critique. They are part of your life, they are not just films. Generally, I think A New Hope's the roughest of rough diamonds - it is iconic, but historic context is needed to excuse or tolerate many of its weaker or just plain derpy elements (and these days I find the trench run a bore, and the very end an awkward cheesefest).

All I could say is that Empire's my clear favourite of the originals, and A New Hope and Jedi are about even - fairly iffy films, but mostly tremendous fun. I'd need to see Rogue One a few more times to really suss out my feelings on it, but The Force Awakens is probably my favourite after the originals (no new film could overcome/overturn a lifetime's familiarity with those three).

That means Rogue One's after TFA, with the three black sheep of the family - the dregs of the barrel, to mix my metaphors - relegated to the last three places.

So I suppose there are really only two effective eras for me; the originals, and then the new ones. Empire's the pick of the oldies, and so far TFA's the pick of the new'uns. I'm not keen on the idea of a Han Solo standalone at all, so I'm skeptical about the Anthology entries, but confident about the mainline series/trilogy.

In short, I finally have a better measuring stick for action set pieces in 21st century movies that's better than Cap 2's ship infiltration. It's like they made this movie for me specifically.

Each to their own, of course, but I think The Winter Soldier's an incomparably superior film on pretty much every count.

I really enjoyed Rogue One, and look forward to seeing it again. But it had nothing to compare to that opening mission in Cap 2, or the Bucky fight on the highway (and for me, Civil War arguably bested that with the phenomenal sequence where Cap and Bucky escape down the staircase. not sure anything in Rogue One matches the airport scene, or the final confrontation, either).

I saw it a couple of days ago, and only one sequence really stands out - Vader's, and that was bordering on being insultingly short and also rather pointless (in that there was no connection to the actual protagonists, it was just 'here's Vader being a badass for a bit').

That said, I did love how Rogue One takes us right up to where A New Hope starts. Well, iffy Leia cameo (and smash-cut to credits) aside.

 

[Veylon]

I just saw it. It was very badly in need of an editor, both on the script and on the film itself. There were too many characters and too many places visited to do any of them justice and it suffered heavily - more than TFA - from unnecessary cameos. I enjoyed it, it felt right most of the time, the action sequences were great, but it lacked the tough love that A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back had to turn it from a good movie into a great movie. The filmmakers couldn't let go of the reliance on the original franchise and the focus wasn't quite tight enough on who we had. I wasn't disappointed because I thought it would be worse, but it's a shame because it could've been better. I hope a fan somewhere can whack the unnecessary bits off and deliver a modestly superior version.

 

[Delicious Anathema]

As someone who doesn't like Star Wars very much, I thought it was ok and I think I liked it better than Ep.6, though the strong female lead stuff is getting to the point of being a clich

 

[Hawki]

I liked it better than Ep.6, though the strong female lead stuff is getting to the point of being a clich

We've had a grand total of two Star Wars films released in cinemas that have a female lead. That's two out of nine.

That's hardly approaching cliche territory.

 

[WindKnight]

Really enjoyed it overall, so much better than the prequels, though some of the cameo's got a bit silly (almost rolled my eyes at the two characters Jen had a run in with on Jedah).

 

[Delicious Anathema]

I liked it better than Ep.6, though the strong female lead stuff is getting to the point of being a cliche

We've had a grand total of two Star Wars films released in cinemas that have a female lead. That's two out of nine.

That's hardly approaching cliche territory.

Two in a row, and I mentioned cliche as in movies in general, not just SW. Ghostbusters is ridiculous.

 

[TakerFoxx]

I just saw it. It was very meh. Like, worst than TFA levels of meh. It never descended into outright badness, but rarely was anything other than mediocre.

 

[Hawki]

I liked it better than Ep.6, though the strong female lead stuff is getting to the point of being a cliche

We've had a grand total of two Star Wars films released in cinemas that have a female lead. That's two out of nine.

That's hardly approaching cliche territory.

Two in a row, and I mentioned cliche as in movies in general, not just SW. Ghostbusters is ridiculous.

Two in a row, as opposed to seven in a row? So, "strong male lead" is fine, but "strong female lead" is a threat to manly men and their masculinity everywhere?

Not even touching Ghostbusters since the Internet decided that an eclipse had come and freaked out appropriately.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

I'm probably a bit late on this but:

No, Rogue One really isn't anything special. It's not terrible and for what it's worth, it's probably the best Star War Prequel made so far but Force Awakens, for all its faults, is a far better or at least far more engaging movie. As vague as that sounds, FA had a lot more personality. It had more likeable characters. More memorable dialogue. More memorable individual scenes too. In my defense: I'm not the biggest Star Wars Fan and Rogue One was nothing if not a movie for fans. And I'm sure for fans there's a lot in there to like. I thought there was something very satisfying to see all the events leading into Episode 4 falling into place but it just lacked that sense of actual emotional engagement. I didn't feel like the characters were very well fleshed out, for a movie that felt so long it had a severe lack of meaningful character interaction. It just lacked those small moments that let the character play off each other.

I mean, it certaibnly also had its qualitites. It went to great lenghts to recreate the look of a late 70s Science-Fiction movie. It had a lot of really rad action scenes. If they took the last 30-45 minutes and release them as a short movie to act as a kind of prologue to A New Hope I would have thought it was pretty cool. But it didn't really keep my interest for the more than two hours it ran and I came out of the theatre pretty unimpressed.

To its credit my dad, who is actually an OG Saw-the-original-trilogy-as-a-kid Star Wars fan saw it with my and absolutely adored so I stand by what I said: It's a Star Wars movie for diehard fans and I can, if nothing else, respect Disney for appealing to those specifically rather than going for mass appeal. And, I mean, at least it's different. So maybe Star Wars wont stagnate the way the Marvel movies did.