Rogue One - Why was Vader seem so much more impressive than Prequel-era fighters?

[Zontar]

Legitimately surprised no one posted the scene in question yet.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Rogue One had close ups of people clearly shitting themselves with fear, who are defenseless and mercilessly mowed down as Vader makes his way to his objective. He's just as unstoppable as he was in that Mustafar scene but the closed hallway nature of the fight and the empathy we have for his victims makes all the difference.

This basically. That fight, unlike so many in the prequels, mattered. That doomed hallway of schmucks was trying to buy time for the information that the principal cast had already fought and died for to get away. And, frankly, they only way they could buy that time was having Darth Vader kill them slowly. And I think they knew it.

And Vader did. With extra helpings of brutality.

 

[RealRT]

Scientifically explaining everything is fine in a work of science fiction.... except the Original Trilogy was much closer to fantasy than sci-fi. The Force is a combination of magic and faith - both of which only work effectively when not explained in detail.

Replace "faith" with willpower. Which can work effectively without being explained.

He destroyed the mothership in TPM because Lucas wanted a throwback to what Obi-Wan said in ANH - 'he was the greatest starfighter pilot in the galaxy'. I mean, c'mon, the kid barely knew what the fuck was even happening, and somehow destroyed the mothership accidentally. Y'know, like Jar Jar would've done.

Beating Dooku says nothing of Anakin's character. Killing him on the spot does, though.

Padme only died due to her grief at losing Anakin. Which is still ridiculous.

Yeah, well I think the start of RotS was a quite effective display of Anakin's actual prowess as a pilot. Which wasn't anything to sneeze at.

Being quite a formidable duelist counts as a trait. And yeah, I agree, killing him on the spot was a character moment.

I'll give you that one. I'm still having difficulty of wrapping my mind about the concept of any human being thinking this is possible.
(I mean, come on, have her die of throat damage due to being Force choked. Bam! You got your drama and it doesn't look stupid.
That's actually what they did in the novel version)

When? Everyone?

I know Yoda and Windu converse about their minds being clouded, but the idea that practically the entire galaxy has been rendered blind/stupid by Palpatine is far too much to swallow. Why even bother writing the Senate into the film at all? The film would've panned out the same way even without it.

If he managed to cloud the most powerful of the Jedi masters - which Windu and Yoda are - what is a bunch of feeble-minded politicians to him?

What Yoda was getting at in TESB was that the Force completely transcended the physical. The problem with the prequels is that every single Jedi/Sith uses a lightsaber in combat, even when their physical structure would give them a serious handicap when swordfighting. Handicaps which have to be compensated for. Which means that the physical does matter after all.

The beef I have is that Lucas was basically coming up with excuses to bring out the lightsabers. Ancient masters like Yoda should be so powerful in the force that they basically transcend even needing a melee weapon. Palpatine in RoTJ portrayed this well: he looked at Luke's lightsaber as a novice's tool that he himself had long since outgrown.

Well, blame pop culture for turning lightsabers into such an icon that any Star Wars movie without them would look incomplete. That's pretty much Star Wars' signature feature, differentiating it from other sci-fi and space operas.

I'm probably going to get a groan from you for saying this, but I get the impression that you either haven't seen the Plinkett 'reviews' or disdain them. Not that I needed to have seen them to rip the prequels to shreds, but they are kinda useful in picking out the more pedantic inconsistencies.

Yes, you are. Yes I haven't. Yes, I kind of do.
Y'see... I don't want to waste hours of my life on having a nerd tell me that I shouldn't enjoy the silly space fantasy movies I like. I can bring out my nerd glasses (figuratively speaking) and take apart the original trilogy as well, if we're going to go full pedantic. But I don't want to. I'll just turn my brain off and have some dumb fun. The prequels have their flaws (namely, acting; the first time I heard them with the original English voices I couldn't believe my ears, they were bleeding so damn hard; it was also the last time I watched them undubbed). But the combat scenes are engaging, the effects are good, the fight scenes are well done and lightsaber duels are just awesome in more ways than one, from elaborate choreography to the way they are filmed (unlike most modern action movies, you can clearly see what the flying dutchman is going on). And the groan you're getting from me is well-deserved, because everyone and their dog and their dog's fleas go to "watch Mr. Plinkett's reviews" argument.

 

[happyninja42]

Yes, you are. Yes I haven't. Yes, I kind of do.
Y'see... I don't want to waste hours of my life on having a nerd tell me that I shouldn't enjoy the silly space fantasy movies I like. I can bring out my nerd glasses (figuratively speaking) and take apart the original trilogy as well, if we're going to go full pedantic. But I don't want to. I'll just turn my brain off and have some dumb fun. The prequels have their flaws (namely, acting; the first time I heard them with the original English voices I couldn't believe my ears, they were bleeding so damn hard; it was also the last time I watched them undubbed). But the combat scenes are engaging, the effects are good, the fight scenes are well done and lightsaber duels are just awesome in more ways than one, from elaborate choreography to the way they are filmed (unlike most modern action movies, you can clearly see what the flying dutchman is going on). And the groan you're getting from me is well-deserved, because everyone and their dog and their dog's fleas go to "watch Mr. Plinkett's reviews" argument.

I think the thing about the Plinkett reviews is simply that they break down, in a cinematic structure way, the flaws in the movie. It says nothing about whether you enjoyed the movies or not, it just analyses how the story was told, what story was being told, the common methods in storytelling to convey that information to the audience in a way that is entertaining and engaging, etc etc, and how the prequels didn't do this very well. He does point out in some of the episodes that it does get some things right now and then, but enjoying a movie, and acknowledging it to be a bad film from a critical standpoint, aren't mutually exclusive.

I personally don't have a lot of hate for the prequels. I remember being annoyed and angry at times, when I saw them in the theater, but it wasn't like some frothing nerd rage that had me tearing up all my toys or anything, because it "ruined my childhood". And as time has gone by, I've come to be more forgiving of the films, and don't consider them to be too terrible. I put them on par with Rogue One, in that they had a preset ending that we all knew, and had to come up with some story to end up there, and didn't do it very well. But they had their good bits here and there. I've seen far worse films before and since.

But that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that they are "bad" films, from a technical standpoint.

Of course, a lot of this is opinion, and it's basically pointless to argue opinion, as neither opinion is right or wrong. You seem to think the combat was engaging (I didn't), the saber duels were awesome (I didn't), and several other points that we likely disagree on. That's fine. I seem to be the only person in the world that doesn't have a problem with the "I hate sand" line, but I don't really care what others think, so it's all good.

But I do think that the reviews of Mr. Plinkett are a pretty good, close look at where the movies fell apart, and are worth a look, though I could do without the basement torture skits between review clips, but that's just me.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I'll give you that one. I'm still having difficulty of wrapping my mind about the concept of any human being thinking this is possible.

Having worked in health care for almost a decade at this point, I feel that the will to live is almost as important as the ability to survive. I've seen way too many people that had lost their reason to live (work, spouse, home, pet etc.) and died of illness that should not have been lethal. My reading of the scene has always been that Padm? dies from the wounds of Anakin's abuse but she does so because she's given up on life, which is why SPACE!medicine couldn't save her.

 

[happyninja42]

I'll give you that one. I'm still having difficulty of wrapping my mind about the concept of any human being thinking this is possible.

Having worked in health care for almost a decade at this point, I feel that the will to live is almost as important as the ability to survive. I've seen way too many people that had lost their reason to live (work, spouse, home, pet etc.) and died of illness that should not have been lethal. My reading of the scene has always been that Padm? dies from the wounds of Anakin's abuse but she does so because she's given up on life, which is why SPACE!medicine couldn't save her.

Which makes no sense to me, as she just gave birth to TWO reasons to live. If it really was just a case of her giving up, it kind of implies that she just didn't care about her children very much, if "living for them" wasn't enough motivation to keep her from dying from a "broken heart". I mean, you say that loved ones dying is a common reason they give up, you'd think giving birth to new loved ones would have the opposite effect. If the usual reaction to motherhood is common, in that they become stupidly affectionate and happy, due to endorphins and seeing their child.

 

[maninahat]

I seem to be the only person who hated that scene. Rogue One reminds me a lot of Episode II, both in the amount of pandering fan-service and bad story telling in it. Everyone went on about how cool it was to finally see a proper fight between Fett and a Jedi, and everyone said it was cool to finally see an army of Jedi fight a battle. It took a year or two for people to realise that, actually, that isn't enough to carry a shitty movie.

So that's my answer to the OP: people think its great because it has Darth Vader fighting in it. To an outsider, it wouldn't be much, but to someone raised on Star Wars mythos, there is a lot of weight put on any scene with Vader in. Every other Star Wars scene that doesn't have Vader fighting in it doesn't get that weight.

 

[happyninja42]

I seem to be the only person who hated that scene. Rogue One reminds me a lot of Episode II, both in the amount of pandering fan-service and bad story telling in it. Everyone went on about how cool it was to finally see a proper fight between Fett and a Jedi, and everyone said it was cool to finally see an army of Jedi fight a battle. It took a year or two for people to realise that, actually, that isn't enough to carry a shitty movie.

So that's my answer to the OP: people think its great because it has Darth Vader fighting in it. To an outsider, it wouldn't be much, but to someone raised on Star Wars mythos, there is a lot of weight put on any scene with Vader in. Every other Star Wars scene that doesn't have Vader fighting in it doesn't get that weight.

Eh, I disagree a bit on the "every scene with Vader has weight" comment. The bit with him and the Death Star administrator, on Mustafar was pretty stupid IMO. It was totally neutered of it's awesomeness with the "be careful not to choke on your aspirations" line. If Vader had just paced back and forth, and then started choking him, without turning back to look at him, and said something like "Be careful not to overstep your position, you are not as important as you hope to be" something like that. Then it would've been ok. But as is, it's terrible. The Vader fight scene is better, I think, because he doesn't say anything. They just show him being the ruthless killer that he is. No stupid quips and terrible puns, just brutality, efficiency, and no mercy.

As to the rest of the movie being shit. Yeah, it was shit. At no point in that movie did I give a crap about any of the characters, or anything happening to them. The only guy that I actually felt empathy for, was that nameless Rebel trooper at the door, desperately trying to get someone to open the door. And then, when he realizes that's not going to happen, desperately trying to get someone to take the plans, knowing he's going to die. THAT guy, got more emotional investment from me, in his 1 minute of screen time, than 2 hours of pouty Jan Erso, The Pilot, The Heavy Weapons Guy, The Blind Kung Fu Guy, and the Comic Relief. I use their archetypes, because I couldn't be bothered to learn their names, and the movie never gave me reason to care either. I only remember Jan, or Jen, or whatever, because it's been said a bajillion times in media, discussing the film.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It was a very fan-servicey scene in a pretty fan-servicey film that had to work overtime to justify its reason for even existing. So they amped up the "Rule of Cool" to 11, which...when you stop to be honest with yourself...is all Star Wars ever really was to begin with.

It's better than similar scenes in the prequels because the prequels were loathsome garbage that featured staggering ineptitude in virtually every facet of their construction.

It was totally neutered of it's awesomeness with the "be careful not to choke on your aspirations" line.

Oh god yeah, that was terrible. It was a drum sting away from being something off a 3rd tier 90's laugh track comedy.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

Spoilers below.

So, at the end of the latest Star Wars movie, Rogue One, we get a truly memorable moment that has, perhaps gone down as audience's favourite scene of the entire film; Darth Vader, strolling down a hallway while slaughtering every Rebel in his path. It's a gripping and thoroughly enjoyable moment, reminding everybody watching why this guy has gone down as one of the truly great villains of cinema. He says nothing, yet we know just from looking that he's an unstoppable force of destruction, with the good guys unable to do anything to halt his advance.

And yet, as I watched it, I couldn't help but feel something odd. The Prequels, while certainly flawed, nevertheless had spectacular fight scenes and choreography, creating fighters that appeared to be of a calibre that simply could not be matched. The fluidity of their movements, the style of their lightsaber duels, the way they flipped and kicked and jumped, just made the fights of the original trilogy looks like childsplay by comparison.

And yet, here was Vader, fighting in a manner that was far more restrained and basic than those of the Prequel-era, yet he, for whatever reason, seemed to come across as not only more intimidating, but also like an overall better fighter than those who came before. This is what struck me as odd because those who fought and duelled in the Prequels were clearly made to appear as though they had skill that far outmatched those of the OT, and in a lot of ways, they did. But even so, there was just something about the more simple way Vader fought in Rogue One that just seemed to overshadow those more choreographed fights.

Do you agree? Disagree? Or perhaps share some other viewpoint I had not considered?

I know this scene was extremely popular with folks, but to me it came across as an extremely showy, over-the-top piece of superfan service that made absolutely no sense, and here's why: If the original trilogy already established that Vader can choke and kill people without lifting a finger, and we've seen him snatch a blaster out of Han Solo's hand, then...why didn't Vader just use the Force to retrieve the disc from the rebel soldier? And if he does that in Rogue One, then why at the beginning of A New Hope does he just stroll through the hallway AFTER the storm troopers blast their onto Leia's ship and take out the rebel soldiers? It just doesn't seem to fit at all.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I seem to be the only person who hated that scene. Rogue One reminds me a lot of Episode II, both in the amount of pandering fan-service and bad story telling in it. Everyone went on about how cool it was to finally see a proper fight between Fett and a Jedi, and everyone said it was cool to finally see an army of Jedi fight a battle. It took a year or two for people to realise that, actually, that isn't enough to carry a shitty movie.

So that's my answer to the OP: people think its great because it has Darth Vader fighting in it. To an outsider, it wouldn't be much, but to someone raised on Star Wars mythos, there is a lot of weight put on any scene with Vader in. Every other Star Wars scene that doesn't have Vader fighting in it doesn't get that weight.

I'm with you [see above post]. I actually don't care for Rogue One at all, and the Vader as Jason Vorhees scene pretty much encapsulates why I don't like the movie -- too much reliance on fan service gimmicks and not enough interest in the the new characters and their stories. And I totally agree with your Fett comparison. I don't know if Rogue One is ass bad as that -- after all, there was a legit reason for Vader being around in Rogue One, where as Episode II shoe-horned Fett into the story -- but it's pretty similar.

 

[PrinceOfShapeir]

While it's always possible TFA will turn out to be that really bad one (Rogue One was objectively better after all

Hell no. Rogue One was a mess. TFA had at least one good screenwriter, Lawrence Kasdan. Rogue One was written by two confused incompetents and directed by someone with no knack for flow or characters. It was then further ruined in editing. TFA was at least decent.

If I were Disney, I would have ignored the expanded universe too. Their goal should be to make a good story, not to incorporate the stories that have been written over the decades into a work that's made redundant by the source materials. I know little of the Thrawn trilogy, but I dislike the idea of Leia having twins, as if all Skywalkers have to have twins, and of Luke's story continuing. He had his character arc. His friends too. Let someone else be the hero. Thrawn also seems overpowered, controlling an entire army with the Force.

'

What?

Thrawn isn't Force Sensitive. What the hell are you talking about?

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

His fighting style, likewise, mirrors this by being subdued yet efficient. It shows that Vader wastes no energy, because the half dozen people in front of him pose no risk to him, he will kill them and he will do so without even trying very hard.

Pretty much this. Plus the fact that he is a quadruple amputee who lives in an iron lung probably has something to do with his lack of flourish as well. There isn't much space to move around in that hallway either.

I am surprised to see the OP applauding the choreography in the prequel trilogy. Phantom Menace had a pretty decent fight with Maul, but after that it got completely ridiculous with the weightlessness of the lightsabers and all the acrobatics. I've seen pretty universal criticism of the saber duels but that may just be my experience.

 

[EbonBehelit]

No the stupidest part of the entire prequel set up was the continued use by the Jedi's 'bringing balance to the force'. Now correct me if I am wrong but a balance of something means equal weighting on both sides, in this case the force having a dark and light side, if the Universe has hundreds of Jedis, (the light side) then surely the only way to bring balance to the force would be to either bring in a whole bunch of Sith Lords to make up the difference or kill off a huge number of the Jedi and well that's kinda what happened, leaving essentially Obi wan and Yoda on the good side and Vader and Palpatine on the other, i.e balanced.

Your talking about a Universe that has a group of light saber handling, mind reading, object manipulating space wizards who are the go to guys when the shit hits the fan but they are so dumb they don't understand what 'balance' means?

That'd require something a bit more nuanced than a "Jedi good, Sith evil" mentality, which the films never stray from. It's a shame really: there's a lot of room for adding a few shades of grey to the Force. The old EU/games looked into this kind of thing sometimes.

What?

Thrawn isn't Force Sensitive. What the hell are you talking about?

Not only that, but I'm pretty sure Thrawn liked to drape some kind of Force-nullifying creature around his shoulders to render force-sensitives powerless in his presence.

 

[EbonBehelit]

Yeah, well I think the start of RotS was a quite effective display of Anakin's actual prowess as a pilot. Which wasn't anything to sneeze at.

Being quite a formidable duelist counts as a trait. And yeah, I agree, killing him on the spot was a character moment.

I'll give you that one. I'm still having difficulty of wrapping my mind about the concept of any human being thinking this is possible.
(I mean, come on, have her die of throat damage due to being Force choked. Bam! You got your drama and it doesn't look stupid.
That's actually what they did in the novel version)

Anakin being an ace pilot by the time of RotS is totally fine, since he's an adult at that point and had been fighting in the Clone Wars for a while.

Anakin didn't need to have the 'vision of Padme dying' to motivate him towards the Dark Side, imo. Anakin was supposed to be a noble but prideful soul that was gradually worn down from having to watch those he cared about die needlessly due to his lack of power.

I personally think the Jedi should've been partially responsible for what happened to Padme. Perhaps they become suspicious of Anakin and - having discovered his relationship with Padme - then coerce her into spying on him? Then an irrational/unstable Anakin could catch her in the act and 'compel her' to snitch on the Jedi - damaging her physically in the process. She then realises the truth in Obi-Wan's warnings and decides to flee incognito to Alderaan at the end of the film, with Palpatine spinning this however he sees fit. This would make Anakin turning on the Jedi a little more believable, and would also be consistent with Leia having memories of her mother in RotJ.

Yes, you are. Yes I haven't. Yes, I kind of do.
Y'see... I don't want to waste hours of my life on having a nerd tell me that I shouldn't enjoy the silly space fantasy movies I like. I can bring out my nerd glasses (figuratively speaking) and take apart the original trilogy as well, if we're going to go full pedantic. But I don't want to. I'll just turn my brain off and have some dumb fun. The prequels have their flaws (namely, acting; the first time I heard them with the original English voices I couldn't believe my ears, they were bleeding so damn hard; it was also the last time I watched them undubbed). But the combat scenes are engaging, the effects are good, the fight scenes are well done and lightsaber duels are just awesome in more ways than one, from elaborate choreography to the way they are filmed (unlike most modern action movies, you can clearly see what the flying dutchman is going on). And the groan you're getting from me is well-deserved, because everyone and their dog and their dog's fleas go to "watch Mr. Plinkett's reviews" argument.

Fair enough.

I mean, I do still kinda Like Episode 1. It's a bit of a mess but as you said, it's a fun light action movie that one can easily switch off and watch. The podracing scene is fun no matter how many times I see it.

Attack of the Clones is a total tirefire though.

 

[Kyrian007]

Thrawn also seems overpowered, controlling an entire army with the Force.

What?

Thrawn isn't Force Sensitive. What the hell are you talking about?

Not only that, but I'm pretty sure Thrawn liked to drape some kind of Force-nullifying creature around his shoulders to render force-sensitives powerless in his presence.

He did and didn't control an entire army with the force. He recruited Joruus C'baoth (an insane jedi clone) to use battle meditation to aid his army. The thing around his neck kept C'baoth from mind controlling him.

So he didn't, and wasn't force sensitive. But in a way he kind of did indirectly control (mostly just aid, but direct as well) an army with the force.

 

[Rangaman]

Ehhh...yes and no? On the one hand, Duel of the Fates (and the fight that accompanies it) are the two best things about The Phantom Menace.

On the other hand, every other lightsaber fight in the prequels (and to an extent, that one) looks fucking ridiculous. Yoda's fight scenes in AotC and RoS are some of the most hilarious and ridiculous bullshit put to film.
The more grounded lightsaber fights in the original tri...fine, that one fight in Empire looks better simply because it's not as stupidly OTT.

 

[MrBoBo]

Ehhh...yes and no? On the one hand, Duel of the Fates (and the fight that accompanies it) are the two best things about The Phantom Menace.

On the other hand, every other lightsaber fight in the prequels (and to an extent, that one) looks fucking ridiculous. Yoda's fight scenes in AotC and RoS are some of the most hilarious and ridiculous bullshit put to film.
The more grounded lightsaber fights in the original tri...fine, that one fight in Empire looks better simply because it's not as stupidly OTT.

The fights in the Clone Wars cartoons were pretty great.

 

[Rangaman]

The fights in the Clone Wars cartoons were pretty great.

I wouldn't know. All I've seen of The Clone Wars is that shitty CG movie.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

The fights in the Clone Wars cartoons were pretty great.

I wouldn't know. All I've seen of The Clone Wars is that shitty CG movie.

Clone Wars starts a bit rough with that movie, but when it hits its stride in season 2 its pretty awesome. It also goes a long way in fleshing out why Anakin turns into a paranoid, prideful asshole that would conceivably fall to the Dark Side. That said it also shines a spotlight on just how slack-jawed retarded everyone in the galaxy must be to not figure out Palpetine is an evil bastard.

Homestly the best reason to wtch the show is the Clones theselves since their voice actor manages to use tone and inflection to make them all sound distinctive if not unique and they're great fun to watch.