Rooting for the bad guys

[Soushi]

Ok, I'm not cross, I just saw Avatar when I was rather tired and may have missed a few points here:

The Na'vi live in their own world and have come up with their own way of life and are content, the humans invade cos they want some special sort of fuel and we're supposed to feel bad for the humans?

The other point was that people don't like the Na'vi cos they look different? Is this just the internet being hateful or do people in general just follow the philosophy that if something looks different, it's ok to exploit/attack it?

I mean, sure, the whole Na'vi way of life might have been seen as pretentious and maybe it was forcing a little too much encouragement on us to support them, but enough for us to decide that their way of life should end, even though it was none of the humans' business?

The problem was that the humans were trying to make a deal with them, they responded with neuro toxin dipped arrow/spears to the negotiators.

This is after they were built schools and taught languages, the humans were content to leave it at that until the Na'vi decided that the entire planet was sacred and started attacking the humans on sight rather than when they entered the Na'vi protected zones.

This coupled with the fact that Earth is dying and the collapse of the planets civilization was only held back by the fuel made the Na'vi not only racist for hating humans for being different but also genocidal and pretentious.

It worked a lot better in Dances with wolves. I preferred that over Avatar.

(taken from a combination of the movies, the game, the wiki, the books and the website) The na'vi actually responded surprisingly well to the humans at first. The first few years of contact, while cautious, actually went very well, with the Na'vi showing the humans a great deal about Pandora and its flora and fauna (as well as pointing out a few sites they would rather the humans not go near). There were things about humans that confused the hell out of them (greed mostly, they didn't even have a word for greed before the humans showed up), but they responded well, and to be fair for the most part so did the humans. The fact that they responded well was made even more incredible due to the fact that the place that the humans first landed was sacred to the na'vi, a valley that a very isolated and personal tribe of Na'vi called home (these were kinda the first guys to start shooting, but then again they did attack anyone and anything that entered the valley, Na'vi or otherwise). the only reason it didn't really bother them was because the humans had to move because they literally could not kill the jungle fast enough before it regrew and swamped everything. Even after that, even after the humans began mining and using acidic mining by products to clear the jungle around their new base location, even after that the na'vi continued to co-exist peacefully. The Na'vi even using the humans as an opportunity to learn more about their own planet (it was one of the few times they actually got to observe a Toruk in its natural environment without interference or fear of being eaten), as well as learning English and basic sciences and maths (there was even rumor that there was a project in place to take a volunteer Na'vi back to earth)
No, things went bad only after a bulldozer crew decided to take a shortcut through the jungle, a short cut that was specifically forbidden by the na'vi ahead of time, and ended up bulldozing a small stand of those trees that the Na'vi used to talk to their ancestors. Neytiri's sister, and future spiritual leader of the clan (kind of a big deal), basically set the bulldozers on fire and ended up killing two RDA mercenaries that were with them, the na'vi took five casualties. These weren't warriors, by the way, these were pissed of adolescents acting outside of orders. The na'vi then retreated to grace Augustine's school, where RDA personnel tracked them down, set the school on fire and gunned down Neytiri's sister and 15 others (more were wounded), including young children, as they attempted to exit the school. Grace herself was shot, thus explaining the scar on her avatar body. That was when the relationship kinda started to go south, because after that the RDA began using strong arm tactics and also massively increased the military presence on Pandora. that is also the moment that the RDA declared whole swaths of the planet off limit to the Navi (this is their own planet mind you) and began a 'shoot first, ask questions later policy'.
So no, the na'vi did not immediately respond with hostility, nor were they immediately pretentious or pushy about their beliefs. As for the whole, enormously tired, enormously erroneous, 'dances with wolves' comparison, seriously, find some new material. Both movies a great and both movies are great in their own right and neither one benefits from comparison to another.

 

[Soushi]

All i have to say to this is:


SIEG ZEON, SIEG ZEON, SIEG ZEON, SIEG ZEON!!!!

 

[Soushi]

Ok, I'm not cross, I just saw Avatar when I was rather tired and may have missed a few points here:

The Na'vi live in their own world and have come up with their own way of life and are content, the humans invade cos they want some special sort of fuel and we're supposed to feel bad for the humans?

The other point was that people don't like the Na'vi cos they look different? Is this just the internet being hateful or do people in general just follow the philosophy that if something looks different, it's ok to exploit/attack it?

I mean, sure, the whole Na'vi way of life might have been seen as pretentious and maybe it was forcing a little too much encouragement on us to support them, but enough for us to decide that their way of life should end, even though it was none of the humans' business?

The problem was that the humans were trying to make a deal with them, they responded with neuro toxin dipped arrow/spears to the negotiators.

This is after they were built schools and taught languages, the humans were content to leave it at that until the Na'vi decided that the entire planet was sacred and started attacking the humans on sight rather than when they entered the Na'vi protected zones.

This coupled with the fact that Earth is dying and the collapse of the planets civilization was only held back by the fuel made the Na'vi not only racist for hating humans for being different but also genocidal and pretentious.

It worked a lot better in Dances with wolves. I preferred that over Avatar.

(taken from a combination of the movies, the game, the wiki, the books and the website) The na'vi actually responded surprisingly well to the humans at first. The first few years of contact, while cautious, actually went very well, with the Na'vi showing the humans a great deal about Pandora and its flora and fauna (as well as pointing out a few sites they would rather the humans not go near). There were things about humans that confused the hell out of them (greed mostly, they didn't even have a word for greed before the humans showed up), but they responded well, and to be fair for the most part so did the humans. The fact that they responded well was made even more incredible due to the fact that the place that the humans first landed was sacred to the na'vi, a valley that a very isolated and personal tribe of Na'vi called home (these were kinda the first guys to start shooting, but then again they did attack anyone and anything that entered the valley, Na'vi or otherwise). the only reason it didn't really bother them was because the humans had to move because they literally could not kill the jungle fast enough before it regrew and swamped everything. Even after that, even after the humans began mining and using acidic mining by products to clear the jungle around their new base location, even after that the na'vi continued to co-exist peacefully. The Na'vi even using the humans as an opportunity to learn more about their own planet (it was one of the few times they actually got to observe a Toruk in its natural environment without interference or fear of being eaten), as well as learning English and basic sciences and maths (there was even rumor that there was a project in place to take a volunteer Na'vi back to earth)
No, things went bad only after a bulldozer crew decided to take a shortcut through the jungle, a short cut that was specifically forbidden by the na'vi ahead of time, and ended up bulldozing a small stand of those trees that the Na'vi used to talk to their ancestors. Neytiri's sister, and future spiritual leader of the clan (kind of a big deal), basically set the bulldozers on fire and ended up killing two RDA mercenaries that were with them, the na'vi took five casualties. These weren't warriors, by the way, these were pissed of adolescents acting outside of orders. The na'vi then retreated to grace Augustine's school, where RDA personnel tracked them down, set the school on fire and gunned down Neytiri's sister and 15 others (more were wounded), including young children, as they attempted to exit the school. Grace herself was shot, thus explaining the scar on her avatar body. That was when the relationship kinda started to go south, because after that the RDA began using strong arm tactics and also massively increased the military presence on Pandora. that is also the moment that the RDA declared whole swaths of the planet off limit to the Navi (this is their own planet mind you) and began a 'shoot first, ask questions later policy'.
So no, the na'vi did not immediately respond with hostility, nor were they immediately pretentious or pushy about their beliefs. As for the whole, enormously tired, enormously erroneous, 'dances with wolves' comparison, seriously, find some new material. Both movies a great and both movies are great in their own right and neither one benefits from comparison to another.

Firstly Formatting, use it.

Secondly The dances with Wolves remains relevant because it was a better film, the characters were better, the story while overused was good, the ending was good.

Avatar took the same premise and added a fuckload of explosions and a disability.

the comparison still stands.

Firstly: Make me Formatman!
Secondly: Your opinion, don't give a shit. I saw both, enjoyed both, but liked Avatar better. Doesn't make you wrong, doesn't make me wrong, as we are basically happy slapping over fictional events and characters in settings that are kinda realistic but don't do much to distract from the fact that we are watching actors and directors make a buck.All I am saying is that tirelessly comparing one to another does nothing to help either movie and in fact only serves to distract us from each movies unique or positive attributes.
Thirdly: *sigh* if we criticized everything that had the same basic plot as something else, well, we wouldn't have a lot of good movies, book, or TV shows out there. i could make a big long list of them, but siffice to say here are a few : star wars, star trek, super hero movies, every romantic comedy ever (although in hindsight...), ect ect. Its a tired argument i know, but then so is yours.
Fourth: I stand by my previous statement.
So i guess the only thing i can congratulate you on in regards to this argument is that you managed to waste another four minutes of my precious time responding to you.
Cheerio.

 

[FallenMessiah88]

No, never. The good guys should always win. Period.

 

[Soushi]

Ok, I'm not cross, I just saw Avatar when I was rather tired and may have missed a few points here:

The Na'vi live in their own world and have come up with their own way of life and are content, the humans invade cos they want some special sort of fuel and we're supposed to feel bad for the humans?

The other point was that people don't like the Na'vi cos they look different? Is this just the internet being hateful or do people in general just follow the philosophy that if something looks different, it's ok to exploit/attack it?

I mean, sure, the whole Na'vi way of life might have been seen as pretentious and maybe it was forcing a little too much encouragement on us to support them, but enough for us to decide that their way of life should end, even though it was none of the humans' business?

The problem was that the humans were trying to make a deal with them, they responded with neuro toxin dipped arrow/spears to the negotiators.

This is after they were built schools and taught languages, the humans were content to leave it at that until the Na'vi decided that the entire planet was sacred and started attacking the humans on sight rather than when they entered the Na'vi protected zones.

This coupled with the fact that Earth is dying and the collapse of the planets civilization was only held back by the fuel made the Na'vi not only racist for hating humans for being different but also genocidal and pretentious.

It worked a lot better in Dances with wolves. I preferred that over Avatar.

(taken from a combination of the movies, the game, the wiki, the books and the website) The na'vi actually responded surprisingly well to the humans at first. The first few years of contact, while cautious, actually went very well, with the Na'vi showing the humans a great deal about Pandora and its flora and fauna (as well as pointing out a few sites they would rather the humans not go near). There were things about humans that confused the hell out of them (greed mostly, they didn't even have a word for greed before the humans showed up), but they responded well, and to be fair for the most part so did the humans. The fact that they responded well was made even more incredible due to the fact that the place that the humans first landed was sacred to the na'vi, a valley that a very isolated and personal tribe of Na'vi called home (these were kinda the first guys to start shooting, but then again they did attack anyone and anything that entered the valley, Na'vi or otherwise). the only reason it didn't really bother them was because the humans had to move because they literally could not kill the jungle fast enough before it regrew and swamped everything. Even after that, even after the humans began mining and using acidic mining by products to clear the jungle around their new base location, even after that the na'vi continued to co-exist peacefully. The Na'vi even using the humans as an opportunity to learn more about their own planet (it was one of the few times they actually got to observe a Toruk in its natural environment without interference or fear of being eaten), as well as learning English and basic sciences and maths (there was even rumor that there was a project in place to take a volunteer Na'vi back to earth)
No, things went bad only after a bulldozer crew decided to take a shortcut through the jungle, a short cut that was specifically forbidden by the na'vi ahead of time, and ended up bulldozing a small stand of those trees that the Na'vi used to talk to their ancestors. Neytiri's sister, and future spiritual leader of the clan (kind of a big deal), basically set the bulldozers on fire and ended up killing two RDA mercenaries that were with them, the na'vi took five casualties. These weren't warriors, by the way, these were pissed of adolescents acting outside of orders. The na'vi then retreated to grace Augustine's school, where RDA personnel tracked them down, set the school on fire and gunned down Neytiri's sister and 15 others (more were wounded), including young children, as they attempted to exit the school. Grace herself was shot, thus explaining the scar on her avatar body. That was when the relationship kinda started to go south, because after that the RDA began using strong arm tactics and also massively increased the military presence on Pandora. that is also the moment that the RDA declared whole swaths of the planet off limit to the Navi (this is their own planet mind you) and began a 'shoot first, ask questions later policy'.
So no, the na'vi did not immediately respond with hostility, nor were they immediately pretentious or pushy about their beliefs. As for the whole, enormously tired, enormously erroneous, 'dances with wolves' comparison, seriously, find some new material. Both movies a great and both movies are great in their own right and neither one benefits from comparison to another.

Firstly Formatting, use it.

Secondly The dances with Wolves remains relevant because it was a better film, the characters were better, the story while overused was good, the ending was good.

Avatar took the same premise and added a fuckload of explosions and a disability.

the comparison still stands.

Firstly: Make me Formatman!
Secondly: Your opinion, don't give a shit. I saw both, enjoyed both, but liked Avatar better. Doesn't make you wrong, doesn't make me wrong, as we are basically happy slapping over fictional events and characters in settings that are kinda realistic but don't do much to distract from the fact that we are watching actors and directors make a buck.All I am saying is that tirelessly comparing one to another does nothing to help either movie and in fact only serves to distract us from each movies unique or positive attributes.
Thirdly: *sigh* if we criticized everything that had the same basic plot as something else, well, we wouldn't have a lot of good movies, book, or TV shows out there. i could make a big long list of them, but siffice to say here are a few : star wars, star trek, super hero movies, every romantic comedy ever (although in hindsight...), ect ect. Its a tired argument i know, but then so is yours.
Fourth: I stand by my previous statement.
So i guess the only thing i can congratulate you on in regards to this argument is that you managed to waste another four minutes of my precious time responding to you.
Cheerio.

Firstly: How dare you rip off my listing system.

Secondly: Formatting is just good practice and makes it less likely for people to dissmiss you as a moron right off the bat.

Firstly: well considering our argument i thought that it would be a nice ironic touch.

Second: Well if my formatting is what people pay attention to then they read my arguments then they may feel free to call me Mr. Retard MacSpakkerson, personally i reserve judgment for the actually content. Though i will admit, you do make a good point.

 

[Dfskelleton]

Law abiding citizen. I wanted the bad guy to win soooo bad.

Couldn't agree more with you there.

OT: In particular, the Hellraiser movies. The only thing that kept me watching them after the 4th one (the last one that wasn't 100% crap) was Doug Bradley's fantastic performance as Pinhead. All of the cenobites were awesome villains in lame movies.

I wanted General Victor Sarrano to win at the end of Bulletstorm. I came up with a clever little epithet for Grayson Hunt by removing one letter of his first name and replacing one in his last with another.

The bad guy was the far more interesting character.

General Sarrano always kind of reminded me of Frank Booth from David Lynch's Blue Velvet. Primarily, just because every sentence (yes, every single one) that erupts from his mouth features at least 1 or 2 swears. He takes being a pottymouth to a level yet to be attained. He was a lot funnier than any of the protagonists.

Captcha was: gastdo mutton,. I don't know what gastdo is, but it certainly sounds jazzy when placed next to mutton.

 

[Legomaniac91_v1legacy]

I was a lot more sympathetic towards Zeus in God of War 2 and 3. During the first game, Zeus saw how brutal Kratos was and only trusted him because of Athena's assurances and the fact that the gods were desperate to stop Ares. When the second game rolls around, Zeus realizes he made a mistake by making Kratos a god and stops him. After Kratos crawls out of hell itself and tries to punish him by destroying his home city. In the third game, he sees how much of a monster his illegitimate son is and does everything in his power to protect his worshipers, his home, and his family from their ancient enemies.

On top of that, I couldn't see Kratos as a hero after the first game. He was more of an anti-hero in that story; trying to save a city while redeeming himself, but also getting revenge for his murdered family. After he becomes the new god of war, Kratos becomes a lot more selfish. All he cared about was getting revenge on Zeus and nothing else. The biggest misstep comes at the end of GOW2. Kratos has total control over his personal timeline, and he goes back to kill Zeus and awaken the Titans. He doesn't save his family or stop himself from making that deal with Ares.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Okay, here goes:

Books
The Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher: I almost hoped the Canim would win their assault against Alera, seeing as they were being forced out of their homeland by the Vord, which essentially were the Zerg in their general design and structure. Expand, consume, destroy, the works.

Plus, it helps that the Canim are rather badass and that they aren't designed as throwaway furries destined for future yiffy fan art. Apply the social dynamics of wolves to a sentient society and a rather dour approach to life, and you've got the makings of a species that elevates manliness and badassery to whole new levels.

TV Series
Beast Wars: as always, the Predacons were more fun to watch bicker amongst themselves than all the occasional harmless tiffs that shook up the Maximals. It helps that Megatron, as voiced by David Kaye, had the sort of voice you'd almost be tempted to stick on a late-night emcee. You know, the kind who handles the late-night, suggestive Soft Jazz and the desperate phone calls from lovesick people seeking advice.

"Well, puny meat sacks, that is all for tonight's edition of [i|Megatron's Late Nites[/i]. Remember, the only way to secure a relationship is to aggressively dominate your significant other into groveling and subhuman servitude. Yes."

The Legend of Zelda from The Super Mario Bros. Super Show: for once, I would've liked to see Ganon succeed in obtaining the Triforce of Wisdom and actually conquering Hyrule, only to have him realize that doing so probably wasn't the best idea... As impulsive and juvenile as he was, he would've made for an atrocious ruler. Which would've been entertaining.

The Daleks from Doctor Who: they've actually technically "won" against the Doctor once or twice before, and it's always entertaining to see how their own ineptitude ends up spoiling their usually near-complete victory. Besides, the Daleks are kind of fun when they gloat.


Movies
Avatar: see the same reason everyone's also listed. Stephen Lang was so badass it was hilarious. The folks and I took to calling Quayritch "Colonel Big Balls" based on how much Lang was chewing the scene.


Profion from Dungeons and Dragons: because watching Jeremy Irons flip his lid and play his part with the evil relish and complete lack of restraint typically reserved for Saturday morning cartoon villains was extremely entertaining. By God, however, was the rest of that movie awful.

I would've settled for a complete re-cut entitled Jeremy Irons and Bruce Payne Ham it Up in Ridiculous Fantasy Costumes While Useless Extras and a Wayans Brother Faff About in the Back.

That would've been glorious.

Star Wars: let's face it, Lucas' universe is only interesting because the scarier, edgier and morally objectionable parts of it promise UNLIMITED POWA! Besides, Darth Vader was the epitome of cool until the prequels inexorably wrecked that ship and turned our favorite icy despot into a whining ball of teenage hormones designed by a focus group to appeal to the kids who listen to Evanescence because it describes how uniquely tormented they feel or who feel that their personal brand of juvenile anger is more consuming and more acute than anything in this godforsaken world that anyone could have ever experienced.

Up until that point, the Dark Side was where all the cool shit happened. KotOR and ToR recapture that feeling, to the point where the morality-play aspects of both the RPG and the MMO fade out somewhat, to let you appreciate just how mustache-twirlingly rewarding being a bad boy can be.

 

[acturisme]

Rooting for the bad guys? Sometimes.
Playing AS the bad guys in a game? Always .

 

[TotalerKrieger]

The Patriot...a film so blindlingly anti-British/pro-American, that any fragment of historical accuracy is thrown out the window in favour of a bunch of flag-waving dick-waving bullshit. I spent the whole movie hoping that Mel Gibson would get his head blown off by Sgt.Sharpe hidden in the treeline half a mile away...

I'm not particularily against the American Revolution, but if you are going to portray the British as inhuman zealots akin to the Waffen SS (as well as completely incompetent), while portraying the American Rebels as the second coming of Christ well then...THE SUN SHALL NEVER SET ON OUR EMPIRE!!!!!!!! (also how did Mel Gibson and co magically lose all trace of their British accents?)

Anyways, take Ghandi, it is a film where the British are clearly portrayed as the bad guys. It unlike the Patriot is a honest film, which shows the reality of British oppression while not turning them into a charaicture devoid of any humanity.

 

[Guffe]

The bad guys were/are always the cool guys.
They wear the most badass outfits, they have the coolest entrance music, they have the coolest moves, they have the coolest look/sound (always talking in a low voice with the light hitting their face so that half the face is in shadows) and they are always so god damned certain about themselves.

 

[Jakub324]

I wanted the humans in Avatar to win so badly. Mainly because I was sick of the "white guilt" stuff and Stephen Lang was hilariously badass.

I agree; fuck the Na'avi.
OT: I seem to root for the Helghast in Killzone, mostly because Visari kicks arse.

 

[rangerman351]

I always wanted the anti-mutant task force in "X-MEN" to to catch the mutants. I mean they're called HOMO SUPERIOR. I don't like them.

 

[Tanis]

Sometimes.

I mean, some 'heroes' are REALLY REALLY annoying and DESERVE to die.
SEE: Humans in BayFormers

 

[DiZtAnT]

Am I alone when I say that I found Lucian (<-- Sp?)
From Fable to be completely reasonable, and hardly even evil.
Sure, he pushed me out the window and such, but his ideals and rant at the very end seemed to open my eyes to his actions. It all seemed justified in the end.
The first time around I never even bothered to shoot him, I was completely entranced by his words.
So much so that I was actually angry with how the game decided to end itself.
I don't remember what he was going on about at the time, but I know it made an impact.

 

[The_Waspman]

Snip

Yeah, I'm all for it. Only problem is we live in a society and culture where 'downer' endings are massively frowned upon. Which is a shame, because I thought thending to Red Dead was amazing.

Of course - and it really does pain me to say this, considering I think that the first game, and therefore everything associated with it is a blight upon the existence of gaming - Prototype 2 seems to be doing something like this. the 'good guy' (or should I say protagonist (in what we generally mean it in western fiction - how about Player Character?)) from the first game is now the big bad in the second. if it wasn't for the first game being unbearably bad in every possible way imaginable, I'd actually be giving the sequel kudos for this.

Also, we do need more games where we can play as the bad guy 9and not just in moral choice situations either.

 

[Right Hook]

Go Dexter!
... Well he's morally grey.

I think everyone roots for Dexter. I wanted everyone to die in Twilight, I don't think those movies had a bad guy, so I just root for death of any kind; earthquake, car accident, tornado, just anything to kill those fucking kids.