Salem Dev: MMOs Without Permadeath Aren't Proper Games

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Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
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"Herp derp, a game that does/doesn't have ______ isn't a real game." ¬___¬
I started gaming during the NES era too and I found that having to restart the entire game from square one every time I got a game over was a pain in the ass so I was more than grateful for the advent of the save feature. Yeah I agree that games that have no real "You Lost" state really don't have any teeth, but come on being able to save your game doesn't really defang it that much.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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His actual statement isn't dickish, like the headline would make me think.

Fair enough. The risk of failure is measured individually. I don't need a "Game Over" screen, but I don't actively oppose them, either. However, in a game like an MMO, I think I'd rather have a persistent character.

And I don't like PVP.
 

Karoshi

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Jul 9, 2012
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Some games benefit from Permadeath and make them a lot more fun (Diablo 3), but MMOs with PvP aren't one of them. I love PvPing, I don't even mind getting ganked much since it make for fun hide-and-seek game. But open-world PvP with Permadeath? Ouch, that's definitely not for me. Seen my share of douchebags in MMOs, I know how this is gonna end.
 

likalaruku

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Nov 29, 2008
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Bat Vader said:
Permanent death doesn't sound very fun to me and neither does PVP. Usually if an MMO makes PVP the central focus and that everyone is flagged for PVP that is an MMO I will never play because I hate PVP. I don't want to be forced to fight against other players.

Permanent deaths sounds OK in a game like Crusader Kings II where if your character dies you take over as the heir. In general though I most likely would not play a game or difficult level that made death permanent unless there was a secret ending of some sort.
Couldn't have said all that better myself.
 

Monsterfurby

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Mar 7, 2008
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Permadeath is "a" gameplay element among many. Not "the" definitive gameplay element (which doesn't exist).

Still, I like the idea of permadeath in MMOs, it appeals to the roleplayer in me. Then again, it must be implemented correctly. I remember a game being announced a long time ago where you would be able to play the child of your character should your first character die. I completely lost track of that one, though, and even forgot its title...
 

viranimus

Thread killer
Nov 20, 2009
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Ok I will do as I always do (although this I truly support) and offer the dissenting voice of reason.

First off there is much validity to this idea about Perma Death. Why do we play video games? It is because we want to experience something different from the mundane world we exist in. Some of us want challenge, some of us want to be entertained by narrative, Some of us want to socialize with friends in a unique world. However the key is that gaming is a form of escapism. Escapism is achieved through immersion. You might not Enjoy watching all your work go up in smoke over unforeseen circumstance, but there is absolutely NOTHING that exists in gaming that creates more immersion and investment in gaming than true consequences.

We KNOW this is true. Just look at how many people who are adverse to the idea, and are so from personal first hand experience. They KNOW it sucks to watch your toon die due to impossible odds thanks to being ganged up on, Spawn camped, cheaters, etc. The experiences they felt generated true and powerful emotional response in the form of anger. But you must think, do you think they every had anywhere near of a strong emotional response from some easy gaming experience?

However that is part of the point.

I will tell you a little story about Everquest to help put this in perspective.

In the very very early days of Everquest, I rolled my first toon. A High elf Wizard. I wanted a more "serious" experience so I chose a PVP server (cant recall which of the original Zeks) This was looooong before such "protections" existed, but I recall trying to eek out a living blowing up the local fauna in the greater Faydark around the High elf castle of Felwithe. I had to deal with many of my "brethren" elves along with various gnomes and dwarves attacking me simply due to the way humans(IE grievers) play.

However one day I recall encountering my very first dark elf just outside of the wood elves tree top city. There amongst the dunes of wood elf corpses on the ground below the city I see in the distance a dark elf run by. I quickly followed to take a better look. I quickly saw that there were three dark elf females following in a perfect line. However by the time I noticed such, they too also noticed me and descended upon me dispatching and disposing of me almost instantly. Now this turned out to be the very beginning of a VERY long experience. Every time I spawned there was the trio ready to gut me anew within minutes. I died so many times I no longer had any money and was quickly loosing all the gear I had (back when you could still loot freely on a pvp server) Everywhere I tried to go to resume my leveling and money making work this boxed trio quickly found me.

So, because of this I realized I had to change my tactics. I did not simply give up and go offline to wait for this trio to lose interest. I decided I had to go elsewhere. Not simply because I was being harassed at that moment, but because it was a PVP server, and it was very disorienting and counter immerse to be more often than not slain by the species that my species was supposed to be on amiable terms with. So If I were to be killed I would rather be killed by "true" enemies, and I would even find myself less opposed to killing those "enemies" myself. So I set out on what was arguably the most grand and visceral adventure in my personal gaming history. This was loooong before maps of norrath were commonplace online. This was well before game wikis popped up a day after release. At the time, all I "knew" of this world was what the manual told me and the original map of Norrath.



Now I knew "of" the various races, but did not know that much about the various localities. I "knew" however that elves were reasonably accepted in Qeynos. A city on the other side of another continent. I knew it would be quite challenging but at the same time I saw this as a great opportunity to truly learn about this world. So with that I set out to find docks at the Dwarven capital.

The trip just to find these docks was riddled with perils for an elf with little more than a stick, a lantern and the shirt on its back. I still had not even made it to level 5 before setting off and I was well aware I would HAVE to travel across zones intended for much higher levels and thus crossing the paths of not only much higher level NPCs but PCs as well who would be no less forgiving than the ones I was leaving behind. So armed with my True north spell to help guide my course, Shadow step to try to evade dangers, and root to create distance from those I couldnt I found the docks and prepared to sail across the ocean of tears to the continent of Antonica, with the hopes I would be able to make just enough money before getting too far in to buy my gate spell in case I truly got lost and start over.

I crossed the OOT with little issue on layover. (outside of realizing there WAS a layover) and found myself in the city of freeport. I figured this would be a good location to bind, bank, make some quick cash, get my gate and depart to find Qeynos. I elected to help some of the local NPCs to pick up some quest cash. I recall needing to take a break to go afk. I figured, its a PVP server, and as the Arena was essentially always empty, it would make a good place to set for about an hour while I was away. Sadly I was mistaken because when I returned to my char, I quickly realized I had sat too close to the Arena PVP line leaving myself free game. My history showed that I was pick pocketed 12 times running through all my cash and painfully one shotted. Regrettably many valuable lessons learned.

Others would follow quickly. Such as the concept in the game of factions. I recall looking for the wizards guild and having a great deal of trouble locating it. I wandered aimlessly through the maze like city streets, checking every alley, building I could find. I opened one door in a filthy looking part of town to be taught the painful lesson of the location of the City necromancers guild hall. I was obliterated by several very irate Necro guild master NPCs. To which not understanding why I was Killed on sight by these humans and not others allowed me to understand how the faction system in the game worked. Simply not only will some races not like you, certain professions will not like you either.

Regardless of my painful but valuable missteps in freeport and finally getting my gate spell I felt confident I had the tools I needed to make this trip across a continent. With no other indication of where to go other than I needed to go west, the first place I found myself was Nektulous forest, the Home of the dark elves. Fittingly enough, I decided to exact a tiny bit of revenge for the initial events that had prompted this journey. So I carefully creeped around the zone until I finally found the entrance to their City, Neriak. I watched from the distance as the nubile Tier dal filtered in and out of the city. Carefully selecting my prey and stalking them until they found themselves separated from their protecting herd. I put down at least a dozen before feeling as if I had rebalanced the scales and decided to move on. Knowing that Nektulous forest would dead end me away from my desired path, I gated to FP and started anew.

This time I headed south west. I quickly found a tunnel in the side of a mountain and was overwhelmed by the PC density. Surprisingly though I was never bothered in this location as it seemed to be the socially agreed upon trade center. Many races who would normally be aggressive from a RP perspective looked at me with utter indifference. Essentially no one paid any attention to me what so ever. I decided to see where this tunnel lead and found myself in the desert of Ro. I knew from my map that this would not be the most direct path, however it seemed very plausible that it might get me to Qeynos, if in a scenic path. So I worked my way across the desert and after trekking the dangerous dunes dodging giants, spiders and specters I finally moved out of the desert and encountered grass and trees again leading me to Innothule swamp.

This seemed entirely too far south to me and I was considering gating and starting over, but I knew from Lore, that the Ogres and Trolls had a long storied past and seeing on the map that the Ogre city was more along the path I needed to go, I thought it stood to reason there would have to be some likely way for these two species to interact on a regular basis. With very careful and precarious navigation from all the dangers the swamp held I eventually found the path out and saw local trolls traded for local ogres as I passed through the feerot. This felt like success because I was finally on the other side of the continent and it seemed like the only thing that stood in my way was to head north over the Rathe Mountains. However after finding the mountains and seeing how dangerous and complex of a maze it was to navigate I quickly found myself lost and in very powerful and hostile lands. It did not take me long at all to first trigger the ire of local giants that I was barely able to evade. Then I found all forward progression blocked because the one spot I needed to go to advance my exploration of the zone was essentially too well guarded by NPCs that would be impossible to avoid detection of. I first tried to get their attention and force them to follow me, then lose them and attempt to quickly double back and try to beat them back to the impasse they guarded but after several failed attempts I was finally discovered by high level PC Gnome who saw me as too good of an opportunity to pass up, Rooted me in place and lit me up sending me all the way back to freeport. Aggravation set in and the night had already wound to the late hours So I decided to pick up my adventure again the next morning, logged off and went to bed.

I started the next morning with more trepidation. I knew I would have to be much more careful in my explorations. I took what little money I had in the bank, made a new robe, picked up a fresh staff and spent my meager remainder on buying two invisibility potions. Given that I had explored the southern route and still was not sure if I would be able to get to Qeynos that way, I decided to push truly west and first aim for the halfee city of Rivervale. then push onward to Karana as it would be the most direct route. The common lands presented little obstacle outside of simply finding a zoneline that might lead to rivervale. I first found Befallen. Knowing it was a dungeon, it seemed like more of a dead end and I exited and eventually located the entrance to Kithicor wood.

It seemed like a fairly easy place but by sheer dumb luck while creeping past a house in the woods I was detected, dispatched and destroyed. Back in freeport I felt undeterred that this would be the right way to go, so I tried again. I had little choice as my costly invisibility potions were on that body. So working my way back I eventually located my corpse and pushed forward eventually finding the halfee city. I felt victorious as this seemed like the first real win for me because with the halflings being friendly I was able to freely bind in their city and it would be established as my new starting point so I could more easily push forward.

I began to explore their nubile lands in the Misty thicket and much like in the Greater Faydark I was harassed by every PC that I caught the gaze of. Based on my map the Misty thicket seemed far more north than I intended to go, but my previous experience on the south run taught me the way the world was laid out was not quite accurately depicted on the map. So I scoured around seeking a zone out. However the only one I could find was Clan Runnyeye, Home of local goblins and a dungeon. This worried me that this path would not work because it seemed like dungeons would be dead ends, not lead to other zones. However given that a complete scan of MT revealed no path westward, Runny eye seemed like the only alternative. So I pressed forward and carefully worked my way through the dungeon. Luckily it was fairly low level which made my survival much easier and thankfully my exploration proved fruitful as I stumbled out of the dungeon into the beholders maze. I had no clue where this was in relation to my target. I tried to work my way through the winding chasms but much like in Rathe Mnts, I found myself at a dangerous point of impasse. Not wishing to fall the same fate I went back to rivervale. I tried for a little while to stay away from the city line to avoid people and farm a bit to make some money because I had to decide if I was going to attempt to make it through the gorge or give up and go if not home at least to freeport where life seemed a tad bit easier. However PCs located me, and the living halflings were far more resentful of my presence than the NPC variety. So I decided to begin working my way back to free port. However this time through the darkened Kith wood I found myself lost and before I was able to get my bearings I stumbled into High keep, a mountain outpost for Humans. This presented promise of potentially another route to Qeynos.

As I explored the outpost it became quickly apparent to me that this was in fact a city zone so after dodging a few intermittent but powerful orcs I finally made it to the safety of its gates. Once there I was lucky enough to be offered a bind and pointed in the direction of Karana which would lead me to Qeynos. I pushed forward past Gnoll and Orcs mostly waiting for existing groups to thin them out for me to pass, but still encountered choke points. Being filled with dogged determination my goal was within grasp I took the chance and used my invisibility potion to get past one choke point with ease. However it didnt take long before I found myself locked yet again. Still determined but much more pensively I used my last potion and darted through. Not long after I exited the zone into East Karana.

As I wound my way down the mountain path terrified of another choke point I was filled with joy as the landscape leveled into wide open plains. With little difficulty other than time consumption I traversed the great plains with comparatively great easy from the arduous trials that had came before. By the time I exited the Western Plain I was beginning to get a bit worried simply for the sheer vast landscape behind me away from my bind point, but as I entered Qeynos hills I knew I was in striking distance. With no real indication on which way to go I ventured north first and quickly located Blackburrow, a clutch for young gnolls. I could see it would be an ideal place to hunt once I was safely established within the city. So based on pure assumption if the first thing I encountered north was danger, the city would most likely either be south, or further west. Purposely second guessing the map due to its poor accuracy track record over the course of the trip I chose south and was rewarded as I finally zoned into Qeynos.

Now, while this long winded adventure does in fact represent the joys of exploration of what is essentially an unmapped world, that does not necessarily translate into immersion, at least in text format. The immersion from the trek came from the slow, plodding deliberate and methodical pace. The constant fear of the unknown. Automatic distrust of everyone and everything even from the safest of distance. Having to fail repeatedly and succeed only by a combination of dumb luck and determination. However for the purposes related to this article it still simply is not enough to convey the beneficial levels of immersion and just how impactful death can be from an experience.

So after I settled in in Qeynos I adjusted to this new life. For the most part the PCs seemed a tad friendlier, and the overall population in the area was far more sparse than Felwithe or Antonica, So it was a suitable location for forward progression in the game. I quickly worked my way up and pushed my way beyond my first real level milestone of level 10. Now learning from prior attempts to infiltrate Blackburrow that individually the gnolls there were of little challenge to me. However they rarely came or could be handled solo. The place was also far too lucrative to simply try to pass up. So as I progressed toward level 10 I repeatedly tested my ability to hold my own in the zone and delve deeper into its depths. By 10 I could normally make my way down fairly far and as I began to essentially make it my secondary home over time I learned much of its perplexing landscape.

One afternoon I had been farming and I was practically filled to the brim with materials to sell/quest and dropped coins to bank. Even with all the copper I was carrying to the edge of encumbrance I had on me an amount far greater than any single amount I had ever had at one time. I was finally starting to feel like I was coming into my own in the game. Yet while already engaged with a pair of gnolls that normally I would be able to easily dispense with I see from battle spam and rapid health drop I am being attacked and as I turn to see what is going on in the distance I see a robed dark elf lobbing spells at me. While I might be able to handle the gnolls, handling them as well as her would not be possible and the gnolls would not simply wait till I dealt with her. So I knew that if I wanted to survive I would have to retreat. I knew I was incredibly deep in the zone and almost to what I had perceived to be the bottom, and simply running to the exit would be very long and add half a zone worth of gnolls on a very undesirable train.

So I felt the best chance was to root her in place, flee and try to put them down quickly outside of her casting range. I turned a corner I knew I would not aggro adds and quickly dispatched the weaker of the two in short order. However by this time I was informed my root had broken, So I started to head back toward the dark elf. I quickly targeted her and rooted her once again. I pushed for another corner from where I originally spotted her and started to work over the second gnoll. This time I was only able to knock off about half its health. So because it had worked the last time I tried to do my root/hide/nuke technique again. However this time she rooted me in place. If I was going to be stuck I chose to work on the gnoll while rooted. She managed to get off one light spell that did not do much damage before root broke and I tried to turn the corner again and finally put the gnoll to rest before the root broke on her. She came charging at me this time in the form of a troll. We slung spells at each other but seemingly being a troll gave her greater melee and health because I could see she was starting to gain the upper hand on me. Now normally I would not run from a fair fight, even if the odds are against me. If I have a legit chance, I will do my best to overcome and stick with it. However on this occasion I was more torn. I felt like using more strategy I could easily win this fight, but at the same time I knew in the back of my head this was a LOT of money and potential faction and would not want to lose it. However knowing that the exit was still a LONG way away trying to escape was no guarantee either.

So I chose to try to win the fight. I threw her off guard by taking a dangerous risk and Shadowstepping (Short random distance teleport) away. With luck It was outside of her line of sight, so I quickly sat down to hastily try to pit stop as much health and mana as I could before she found me again. I actually managed to rest all of my HP/MP back and stood to see if I could sneak out undetected. However as I crossed halfway of a bridge she finally caught up to me and got the upper hand by rooting me in place. This time she unleashed several volleys at me before it broke and took far more damage. We were roughly neck and neck with HP loss, however she was just above 50% HP and It dropped me to about 40% mana to get her there. So I knew I was not going to be able to cast her to death as I would run out of gas before she would run out of health. Knowing my environment I was on a bridge above water. However I had never been down that deep in the dungeon before. If she killed me or If I was killed by gnolls it wouldnt matter. She would loot my corpse and I wouldnt get that far down naked either way. So I decided to take a chance and when root broke refreshed root on her again and I dove off the bridge into the water. It was fairly deep, deep enough to pad my fall. I knew she would pursue the moment root broke, so knowing I had a breath potion in inventory I used it and sat underwater meditating for HP/MP as I waited for her root to break. As it did I watched her come flying off the bridge and with a tiny stroke of luck she ran off in pursuit of me.

I knew she wouldnt be fooled for long, so I only got a little splash before standing up. I used my eye spell (allows you to go out of body controlling an eye to scout ahead) to find her engaged with three gnolls. I used this distraction to my advantage and refilled the rest of my hp/mp. When I followed her, I saw she had finished off one gnoll already. However she quickly noticed me as I was casting and she summoned a pet that she directed at the gnolls and focused her attention on me. While she was down to 50% by this point I felt confident I could work off the remainder this time. However I was incorrect. Once her pet finished the second gnoll it redirected at me. It was almost dead so I tried to take it out, but as I cast so did she and promptly she vanished as her pet died. I assumed she had gated back to her bind point, but really didnt pay attention as I was still far from out of the woods being deeper in the zone than I had ever been with no idea how to get up to familiar territory. So once healed up I creeped along blindly trying to find the way up. About 5 minutes of wandering and thankfully only one easy npc incursion I made it back to the bridge I had jumped off earlier. However in a replay of the earlier showdown as I crossed it I was greeted by her charging head on at me. Right behind her was an immense train of at least a dozen gnolls. She ran right past me and as I turned around to follow her and avoid the mess she brought with her I saw she was already gone, so hoping to avoid aggro and armed with the new knowledge of the area below I jumped off the bridge again. Only two gnolls followed me and they were low enough that I was able to AOE them quickly.

Now knowing this girl had no aversion to fighting dirty, I felt no longer honor bound to do the same. So I decided that given that it was only her and I in the zone (3am EST-ish) that I would have to train the zone back up. As I made my beeline for the zone line I passed by her again searching for me as her train had already caught back up to her. I paid her no attention and ran right past as I only had about 40% hp left and still a very very long road to go. Thankfully she had brought most of the spawns with her initially so the path upward was no where near as dangerous as it normally would be, but I could see I still had a pair of gnolls nipping at my heels. I paid them no mind as I marched toward grass level and the exits. Once there I was still at about 35% so I turned to kill off the two as I could see a new player who had just zoned in at the zone line. Putting them down was easy enough, but as I moved to exit once again I was rooted in place. I turned to face the exit and again there she was this time right next to me in human form with fresh pet in tow. She only had about 25% left so I would try to break root and escape if I could and fend her off if I couldnt. It was an absolute slug out at this point. I was down to having to standing regen mana and cast lvl 1 spells as we were meleeing each other to death. As we whittled each other down she kept me rooted so I could not escape but I had no where near as much mana as she, so my little spells were not doing much. I was however unusually strong in melee and because of it I kept a sizable HP advantage over her. Finally root broke and she was unable to recast it. I figured she had finally ran out of mana too. So I tried to put myself right on the zoneline so I would be able to make a final stand and either I would finally put her down, or if she somehow got the better of me, I could simply tap the back arrow and make an instant retreat.

I was practically panting. It felt like electricity was shooting through my fingers and heat was steaming out of my ears. Much later in life I would realize what this physiological sensation was. It was the feeling of literally fighting for your survival. It was at the time one of the most intense sensations I had ever had in my life.

However, unexpectedly she launched off a nuke right as I got to the zone line and had turned to resume the final assault. That nuke however was unexpectedly powerful and I had to evacuate out. Before the loading message her pet made one final swing. As I zoned I had assumed I had survived until when I had zoned in it was to my bind point. I reviewed the battle spam, and it was clear the message "Loading... Please wait" came first, but was NOT followed by any additional damage and then the message you have died. However there was no second Loading please wait indicating return to spawn as if the damage occurred on the other side and she simply had a better connection than me.

I screamed in fury. I slung the keyboard across the room completely obliterating it, leaving a hole in the wall where it hit and I punched the wall next to the PC leaving a hole there too. My eyes were twitching, my pulse was absolutely pounding. However it was not from the anger. My blood had been pumping through the latter half of this whole event which while I am not sure exactly how long it lasted as I never had the time to look for survivals sake had to be at least 15 to 20 minutes long. My fingers ached, my mouth was dry. I was indeed furious because I had felt that if I zoned, it should auto negate all damage from the exact point I zoned. I was furious that despite repeatedly having advantages and overcoming dirty tricks, outmatched odds, and even the simple fact she was a level higher than I that I SHOULD have survived.

What made it worse was the fact my corpse was not actually in Blackburrow where we fought. It was on the other side of the zone line. By every technical possibility in the game I had in fact survived to zone out. Hence the reason why my corpse was on the outside instead of in. As I looted my corpse I found it empty. At this point I was seething. Teeth clenched and fuming. While I was still in "loot" looking at all the progress I had lost, once again while naked I was obliterated by this dark elf. I slung everything off the desktop including the replacement keyboard.

After calming down and reconnecting the mouse and keyboard I petitioned because if I zoned out I could not have died in BB, yet no damage could have happened on the other side because I never zoned in and went directly to my bind point. Once the GM got involved, it confirmed that I had NOT died in BB, that I still had 6 hp left on zone out. There was a programming error because when the server tried to zone me in, it registered me as -6 hp, sent my location to the zone out as if I had 6 hp but as the zone I was transferring to saw it as -6 it simply dropped a corpse and forced me back to bind without actually having died. Despite the GM knowing I had not actually died I was told it was beyond their ability to do anything about it and the most it was willing to do would be to throw me a couple of long lasting buffs.

Completely outraged I declined and logged out. I was beyond pissed, My nerves were frayed. I felt almost as if I had been in an actual fight, and in some ways much worse. My chest even began to ache as if it was causing actual stress on my heart. I thought at the time, If I could allow myself to get that worked up and physically distressed over a video game, I shouldnt be playing that video game, which at the time it seemed like the well reasoned thing to do was to quit the game. I cancelled my subscription that day, even though it had just been renewed a week earlier. I felt no compulsion to play and instead went back to working on PSX games. It wasnt till almost a half year later after the memory of that event had mostly faded that Its memory did not even cross my mind at the time I saw the new expansion Ruins of Kunark that I found myself intrigued and went ahead and bought it. I did come to enjoy the game for a few years after that with no problems as I thought it for the best to play on a non PVP server. It was during that time I made most of the friends I did from EQ, and was the period of the largest bulk of my memories of the game.

However, the point of this whole elongated tale was that one experience, that intense fight for survival. The long back and forth turning the tide of battle, Even the effects of the long cross continent trek and its fear of unknown and threats to survival are the reason why these are two of the most profound moments I had. Not in the game. In my entire pushing 40 year long gaming history. No other experience in gaming either before, or since has came anywhere near close to producing such an experience that successfully tapped into raw emotion and primal natures.

Right at a decade and a half after the events in spoiler I find myself invariably feeling unsatisfied from most gaming experiences (even newer MMO, or FPS PVP) because they simply do not and really cannot illicit such responses, and longing for a game that might reproduce even a shadow of that pure emotion. If it were not so moving I would not have spent so long typing it all out. That sense of unknown, dread, fear. The fight for survival, that feeling of being willing and actually doing anything to protect yourself and what is yours. To have a game transcend simply inputting commands to control a digital existence to essentially living through that experience.

There is no greater form of immersion in a gaming experience than one that is able to completely consume, captivate you and draws you in so deeply it registers on true emotional and physiological response. Be that being brought to tears by emotionally moving scenes, Overwhelming pride from being recognized by your peers for something that no one else yet had been accomplished, to being so devastated by a loss that you simply cannot even bring yourself to continue for fear of your own physical well being. As I said before in spoiler, tapping into raw emotion and primal natures.

If there is no unknown, there is nothing to fear. If anyone can do everything, nothing is an accomplishment. If there are no consequences, there is nothing to lose.

So in this respect, there is a perfectly sound logic that I can understand about this assertion. If gaming is simply a matter of "win through repetition"/"trial and error" with unlimited tries there is no fear to risk anything. Without risk invariably rewards are no where near as rewarding. I know this is a very major reason why I am addicted to the Souls franchise. While it does have its own issues with "win through repetition" it is so far the only thing that comes even remotely close to presenting that type of game experience that while I thought awful at the time I now find myself longing for anything to reproduce even a fraction of it, at least the better aspects of it.
 

SecondPrize

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Mar 12, 2012
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I tend to gravitate to rogue-likes, and I only find pvp compelling in a game like EVE where you have to put something on the line to get a fight. So fine, I will try your hat simulator when it releases, Mr. Johannessen. Salem was NEVER going to be a smash hit with the masses. Still, this guy has some testicular fortitude to go ahead with it.

Bat Vader said:
Permanent death doesn't sound very fun to me and neither does PVP. Usually if an MMO makes PVP the central focus and that everyone is flagged for PVP that is an MMO I will never play because I hate PVP. I don't want to be forced to fight against other players.

Permanent deaths sounds OK in a game like Crusader Kings II where if your character dies you take over as the heir. In general though I most likely would not play a game or difficult level that made death permanent unless there was a secret ending of some sort.
I've not played Crusader Kings II, put that doesn't sound like permanent death, unless you're taking over back at the very start.

viranimus said:
Fantastic story
That was a fantastic story.
 

Elate

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Nov 21, 2010
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Tahaneira said:
Oy...

Look.

I understand that that's what you find fun. I get it. I respect it. And to anyone who has fun playing that way, more power to you.

However, I'm starting to go just a little bit more crazy every time I hear someone say "A game that does/does not do X isn't a real game."
Amen to that.

It's like saying that a book isn't a real book unless it has a minimum of 400 pages, or is written in the past tense alone or something equally fucking stupid.

Besides, a game labeling itself as a "crafting MMO" and some of the main points being "craft, farming, and building." sound more like a Zynga game... Can you imagine that, Farmville with PvP permadeath?
 

viranimus

Thread killer
Nov 20, 2009
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Now as followup and simply for post cohesion, I get where this comes from. It is the desires I mentioned above. Granted the phrasing is a little overly standoffish, but if you look at what is being said instead of its douchebaggery riddled context it is actually something many gamers at least somewhat consider important to them. Its the same thing that drives many to play the souls series.

Now I can see the importance of PVP, I can see where permadeath would and can work in an MMO. However it would need to be balanced carefully or else it would ruin too many peoples experience to the point most would find it unplayable.

I do not think its plausible to have entire world PVP AND permadeath, because that would basically cause that kind of ruin. However you can have both in a game and still be viable. For example limiting permadeath. Making it so as permadeath cannot occur from open world PVP and otherwise would only occur from NPC death, most likely specifically named mobs directly linked to quest events that make you very aware before you start of permadeath. That would allow you to retain the basic entire world PVP risk, without the negative effects of human nature.

Now based on my prior posts suggestion, that hurts the immerse effect by eliminating the consequence of permadeath. So to counter balance it you would need "Risk" zones that players are either able to avoid and/or are made VERY aware they are entering and what added risk it entails. Insanely lucrative areas that are open to permadeath from PCs. Perhaps to ensure that also remains fairly balanced you would treat such a zone as an instance and mimic the Souls franchise's "invading" structure that controls how many players would be faced with, what level, how often, even relative gear "value" to help ensure you dont get ganked by some overpowered twink thats 5 levels lower than you.

In that sort of format I think not only could this be done, it could be absolutely awesome. Just imagine an MMO where you have farmed out all the levels you can and need to move to a different land for XP yielding NPCs, but in order to do so you must cross a Risk zone that is a procedurally generated maze zone that will summon non linked groups of no more than 3 "invaders" at a time that are each 10 levels lower than you. Individually they are barely a challenge but if all three find you at the same time you "should" be able to survive but even that is uncertain and up to both yours and their respective skill. Should you survive the instance watches your health and progress in the maze to ensure you are fully capable of taking on another challenge before spawning more invaders and giving you an ample opportunity to log out without losing progress should you need to break. You keep working your way through until you find your way out encountering more and more waves, or slightly more powerful one on ones. But the key thing is that despite it being a pvp permadeath situation, where it is something that you actually need for progression the game will always side on giving you as much advantage as possible within parameters. However non progression required risk zones, Ones designed as optional, but highly profitable will NOT give you such advantage.

In such a way you accomplish general "consequence free" world wide pvp, you still have more frequent quest based permadeath from NPCs. You give the players the ability to control how much they engage in this permadeath while still making it so the player simply avoids all permadeath possibility all together.

I know based on my personal experience, and the desire to recapture the type of gaming experience from the above spoiler, that would be just about the fairest and most likely way to accomplish it IMHO. And it still falls squarely with the devs vision and still manages to remain fair enough that it will not erode its player base before its able to build one.

LOL captcha: Patience, child. WTF.. The last post took like 3 hours, how much more patience do I need?
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Aug 30, 2011
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Utter BS.

Death can have a substantial effect without being the end of the game, and furthermore, games with permadeath are discouraging experimentation and limiting their own practical difficulty and length. In games that are not procedurally generated/have no possibility of one run being different from another, permadeath results in doing the same crap multiple times just to get to a point where you can learn. It's bad enough the metagame becoming narrow from just people wanting to always win without the added influence of permadeath.

As for PvP, it doesn't have to be the central focus of a game. What he basically says is that games whose singleplayer might not be that great can still satisfy with a good multiplayer. This is true, but you know which games don't need good PvP? Ones with good singleplayer.

I'm not in favour of too-frequent save points or death having no effect, but permadeath is not for every game, and limits creativity.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
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I wonder how long into the release it will be before they change their mind because they don't have many players.

It's an interesting idea, but it's not the kind of feature that is going to draw in the crowds. Not in the kind of game where you are expected to put in hundreds of hours. If anybody loses a character after putting in that much effort, for what they see as a bullshit reason, they are most likely not going to play again.
 

bificommander

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Apr 19, 2010
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He sounds like an arrogant prick.

I don't know Salem, perhaps it is a game that works well with a permadeath system. There is certainly room for games like that. And I'm sure there's a niche audience who likes it.

But to say that save points in general are the bane of all games everywhere is bullshit. Would a game like Dishonored really be improved if you'd have to start the game from scratch if you were killed in mission 7? Would an FPS be more fun if you were kicked back to the first level so often that you'll have memorized every enemy spawn to the microsecond by the time you're halfway through the game?

If devs want to include a permadeath option, go ahead if your game's mechanics can support it. Or make a game like Salem, where you clearly advertise that this is only for players who like permadeath. But don't go complaining that only games with permadeath are real games and that savepoints make a game suck.

Personally, I haven't played many games with permadeath. I played a bit of FTL. And there's games like Mount & Blade that don't have your character die, but do make you irrevocably lose a lot of potential progress if you lose (you get captured and lose your army and some equipment). The tension of knowing your decisions matter can be fun. But it means having to be focused at all times during the game. You can't do anything silly or fun. And you can just have a stroke of bad luck and lose hours of progress. And in an MMO, the threat of griefers is always there. So yeah, I'll play a permadeath-ish game once in a while, but I'm very happy that most of my games have safe points.

The Oxford Dictonary defines 'game', in the context of video games as "an activity that one engages in for amusement". It's not very amusing to me if I have to take it almost as seriously as my real life, because no fuck-ups are allowed.
 

iniudan

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Apr 27, 2011
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RaNDM G said:
This actually sounds pretty fun, until we inevitably get that one guy that kills players for the ducks of it.

My guess is three minutes before a witch hunt starts.
The nice thing about Salem, is that there is actual crime, punishment, player tracking and witch hunt mechanic in the game.

Basically if your do a crime in the game, other player can have free shot at your character (they can force your character to spawn and "stand trial"), so basically criminal and witch are basically forced to try hide their activity.

The game is also made in a way that you need to spend time on unlocking criminal activity skill.
 

kael013

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Jun 12, 2010
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Yes, because who doesn't like spending 50+ hours of their time getting to the endgame only to hit the wrong key at the worst possible moment and watch all those hours go down the drain?

Now, me, I love permadeath. I'm creating a design doc for a co-op RPG with it. However, that doesn't mean I want it used in every fucking genre. Perma-death is a niche idea and to try to force it onto genres that aren't built to support the concept - like MMOs - is doomed to failure.
 

Denamic

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Aug 19, 2009
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Just like Magicka isn't a proper game without permadeath.
It'd be such a short game if it had permadeath...
 

Squidbulb

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Jul 22, 2011
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This is stupid. Permadeath is fun in some games, but if you think every game should have it you're an idiot. Imagine Skyrim with permadeath. You spend 100 hours improving and levelling up your character, only to make a simple mistake and die. Have fun doing all of those quests all over again.

It only really works in roguelikes or similar games, where the experience is different every time so it isn't boring and the game itself is quite short, so finishing it isn't too difficult.

As much as I enjoy certain roguelike features, having them in every game would be incredibly stupid.
 

Milanezi

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Mar 2, 2009
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Permadeath would keep me away from the game but... I do agree, depending on the genre, it make sense to have it as a rule...
 

Weaver

Overcaffeinated
Apr 28, 2008
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Having also grown up with NES games and the like, I do agree games are easier now. However, while NES games did make you replay the entire game upon death, most of them could be beaten in an hour. The problem here is MMO's are a massive timesink. Having everything you dumped time into just be gone sucks. It's one thing to have 30 minutes of progress lost, and another to have 200 hours or progress lost.

I'm fine not going back to the EQ style days where you lost a weeks worth of EXP when you died.

Most roguelikes, if you're good, can be beaten under the 5 hour mark; usually you'll die within 1 hour and you can count that as a play session. And, more importantly, roguelikes and dungeon crawlers are nearly all randomized.

I don't mind getting killed in hardcore mode 6 hours into Torchlight 2 because the combat is fun and next time will be different. Will salem offer this? I don't know.