Scar is the villianiest villian to ever villain up the joint.

Moonlight Butterfly

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emeraldrafael said:
Ah, damn, didnt mean to quote, just to edit.

Look, im not going to argue this, I just dont think he should be. and yes, he does accept the fact, rather then continue to argue for hwat is right. he betrays his own morals.

As to robin hood, no shit. Atticus put down a fucking dog (admittedly, had rabies, but eh), so he's not some shining beacon of light either. Heroes do something they dont want to do all in the idea of justification. I would justify Robin Hoods actions as he was portrayed in the movie (to which Im holding him up to as thats what this list is bsed on).
No he doesn't the sheriff is adamant that he fell on his own knife there is nothing Atticus can do in that situation. We also don't know what happens after that night perhaps Atticus challenges the Sheriff and loses? There is no proof that he didn't do just that.

Atticus reluctantly shoots a rabid dog that is coming down the street towards his children, there is no cure for rabies at that time. What else was he supposed to do? You are just clutching at straws.


emeraldrafael said:
Also, there are other ordinary guys put in adverse situations on that list. In the end, ghandi was an ordinary guy. Schlinder was an ordinary guy. Andrew beckett was an rdinary guy with the extreme misfortune of having AIDS. Just becaust Atticus challenged Race in the deep south doesnt put him above them. And being a father shouldnt mean anything either.
Atticus is an excellent example of fictitious hero because he isn't presented as one. It's not just the fact that he fights race issues in court. He is fair and good father, he rises to the occasion when his skills are needed but he isn't boastful and he acts gentlemanly and passive in the face of great ignorance and abuse. He is the fictional embodiment of some of the values of the people that you mention. Love of equality, a pacifist attitude and coming to the defense of someone even though it is going to make you reviled and possibly at risk of your own life. Wouldn't Schindler and Gandhi have apprieciated those things?


emeraldrafael said:
and yes, i do find it poorly written. doesnt make it a bad book, just a poorly written one.
It's not poorly written, in any way. I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. A poorly written book isn't a classic 50 years later...
 

the spud

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To me, kefka takes the cake in the "Best villains contest". I guess it is all subjective, though.
 

klausaidon

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I think Skylar from Heroes deserves a honorable mention. I personally thought he was the most "creepy" villain ever. I mean the way he talks, and the look in his eyes. *Shudders* Haunts me.
 

MrMuttonChops

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF01xBOaAQ8 Wouldn't Let me embed but my friend made a video that is very on topic with this.
 

4173

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emeraldrafael said:
xXxJessicaxXx said:
emeraldrafael said:
really? Atticus finch is the top hero in the past 100 years. Really? Thats just sad.
You dont have to have muscles to be a hero :p The guy is pretty awesome.

...
And again, I'll direct you to my reasoning <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.315564-Scar-is-the-villianiest-villian-to-ever-villain-up-the-joint?page=5#12823641>here., because physical strength has nothing to do with it. And already Atticus is an exceptional human being, as he's shown to have a sniper's precision with a gun. Its not that he shouldnt be a hero, but there are people on that same list, who do the same that he is heralded as a hero for. Im not saying he shouldnt be a hero, or event hat he shouldnt be in the top 25.

I just dont think that, in the same company of people he is in, he should be number one. I think that, largely, if the story had not been based upon the author's life and wasnt autobiographical in subject or if atticus had not had children, he wouldnt the hero he is, and this gets more credit then it does reserve just because it writes about race from a child's view in the deep south where race wasnt the issue it is today. Besides, ultimately he does betray what makes him so great when he simply accepts the death of someone, rather then being the moral upstanding man we're supposed to believe him to be.

...

I dont know, like i said in my post I linked to, I just dont think he should be number one. perhaps i didnt see the story for all that it was worth because it was jus atrocious to read, or i didnt enjoy the movie cause that was even more atrocious to watch, but i do understand the importance of it in the literature world and the characters. But when you put a fictional character such as atticus against the nonfictional Oskar Schlinder, Erin Brockovich, and Ghandi, or even against other fictional characters, such as Juror 8, Robin Hood, or probably the best comparison in form of fake character inspired by fictin Andrew Beckett, he just doesnt hold up as number one.

Where i would put him, i dont know, thats a lot more thought and reviewing of movies/literature then I really have time for, but he would most likely be in the the top 25, possibly the top 20, and maybe break the grounds of the top 15 for sure, and if not any of those, at least the top 40 (if you want to go by the music industry's way of ranking). Just IMHO, I dont tihnk he should be number one when faced with the competition he is.
Juror #8 is a really, really terrible juror, though I suppose that doesn't affect his heroicness. He has an ideological axe to grind and he browbeats the other jurors and makes things up. He has a good cause but uses terrible methodology. And the worst danger he faces is getting punched by Juror #3. Top 50 probably, but your ranking seems high to me.

FWIW, if actor performance is considered Jefferson Smith wins by a mile. I can't tell from the directions if it was supposed to be considered.
Otherwise Indiana Jones or Gandhi/Schindler (I think it is silly to rank real life with the completely fictional).

Palpatine my villian. But the whole list is really weird. Dracula (33) has a huge cultural footprint and hurts way more people, and in worse ways than Nurse Ratched (5). That indicates a bias towards actor performance, but then someone like the Wicked Witch is at #4.

Putting Man (Bambi, 20) or Martians (War of the Worlds, 27) is absolutely terrible. Man in Bambi in no way rates the list, and considering the entire human history makes the list a farce.
 

FaceFaceFace

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Alas, Scar is painfully incompetent. Super-lionly so. Like, no other living thing could ever be so incompetent. Under his leadership, the pride lands suffered. Sounds possible. Specifically, though? The guy whose only job is send women off to get his food and keep some relative peace manages to make EVERY SINGLE PLANT DIE. How? That's not even possible for a lion to do if they tried!

Actually, maybe that makes him an even greater villain. He was some sort of primal spirit of decay and destruction all along!
 

Epona

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ravensheart18 said:
I was really confused by the lioness' hoping that Simba would win against Scar. The lioness' will always back the current lion because the first thing a new head line does is kill all the offspring of the previous head lion. They take those genetics seriously.

As for Scar...seemed like every disney badguy to me.
It's a cartoon.

Lions don't really talk either. If you ever run across a Lion singing Hakuna Matata, run!
 

emeraldrafael

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xXxJessicaxXx said:
emeraldrafael said:
Ah, damn, didnt mean to quote, just to edit.

Look, im not going to argue this, I just dont think he should be. and yes, he does accept the fact, rather then continue to argue for hwat is right. he betrays his own morals.

As to robin hood, no shit. Atticus put down a fucking dog (admittedly, had rabies, but eh), so he's not some shining beacon of light either. Heroes do something they dont want to do all in the idea of justification. I would justify Robin Hoods actions as he was portrayed in the movie (to which Im holding him up to as thats what this list is bsed on).
No he doesn't the sheriff is adamant that he fell on his own knife there is nothing Atticus can do in that situation. We also don't know what happens after that night perhaps Atticus challenges the Sheriff and loses? There is no proof that he didn't do just that.

Atticus reluctantly shoots a rabid dog that is coming down the street towards his children, there is no cure for rabies at that time. What else was he supposed to do? You are just clutching at straws.

And so are you, saying that robin hood should not be better then atticus because of the times he lives in and the way he conducts things. its a story of a man who wants to do people right. he gives up his comfy position as an earl, becomes an outlaw, and fights to put the true king back on the throne while his corrupt brother uses it as an excuse to garner wealth and power. The same wrongful king who is about to murder a maiden for no real reason. Robin hoods methods are those of the way things are done. This was a time where up until the 1400s and even later, you could openlly challenge someone to a duel as a way of resolving matters with swords, which continue later with pistols. His not blood thirsty cause he's in a rebellion, and this is just the way things were done thing. it seems archaic when you compare to atticus who lives in 1930s south US, where things are different and court of law settles matters. It makes robin hood no less of a hero just like how atticus losing hsi case makes him no less of one.

and atticus is employed as a laywer, its his job to argue and make someone see his point. And no we dont. but we dont know a lot of story after it ends because the book ends. For all we know robin hood (based on the movie for which he is judged) could have renounced his position as earl, travelled the world with Marian and become a saint, fighting against all injustice over the world. You have to judge in the parameters of the material, and atticus folds like a deck of cards instead of standing up for his morals and convincing the sheriff that he is wrong.

xXxJessicaxXx said:
emeraldrafael said:
Also, there are other ordinary guys put in adverse situations on that list. In the end, ghandi was an ordinary guy. Schlinder was an ordinary guy. Andrew beckett was an rdinary guy with the extreme misfortune of having AIDS. Just becaust Atticus challenged Race in the deep south doesnt put him above them. And being a father shouldnt mean anything either.
Atticus is an excellent example of fictitious hero because he isn't presented as one. It's not just the fact that he fights race issues in court. He is fair and good father, he rises to the occasion when his skills are needed but he isn't boastful and he acts gentlemanly and passive in the face of great ignorance and abuse. He is the fictional embodiment of some of the values of the people that you mention. Love of equality, a pacifist attitude and coming to the defense of someone even though it is going to make you reviled and possibly at risk of your own life. Wouldn't Schindler and Gandhi have apprieciated those things?

well... probably not schlinder, he was a business man at the end of it all who went through a change.

Also, atticus in the end does nothing except influence two people, his children, which by definition of a GOOD father, you should do. he doesnt take Tom's case out of the goodness of his heart, he's appointed to it and does his job because he's expected to, like you'd want anyone employed to. he doesnt do this specifically cause he wants to make a public stand against racial tensions in the south, or challenge society. he does it cause he feels its his job to do so cause no one else does. he's essentially the court appointed lawyer, the guy you get because there's no one else. he doesnt save anyone (tom still gets sentenced, and dies trying to escape), he wasnt a moral underdog (he was generally well liked in the community and while voicing an opinion of equality, it was simply due to his profession), he lost nothing (the guy that provided the main antagonist Bob ewell, is pretty much the literal embodiment of white trash. hes almost described as the guy that is above black people just because hes white. And after the trial and the death of Ewell, Atticus holds his position of general well likedness among the sensible not white trash folks of Maycomb), and the only real thing he does is teach his kids that you dont want to be like everyone else and is a progressively northern thinking man (if I remember right, he studied in the north).

Thats a sitcom, not a man you say is a hero among those like Schlinder, who fights the nazis and sells all that made him what he is to save the lives of people he generally was indifferent towards at the start. thats not a man who you say is a greater hero then Ghandi, who fought one of the most powerful nations (who when this stuff usually comes up their solution is we'll just kill them if they get to big of a pain) in the world for equal rights of people so oppressed that black people would blush and say no yeah, you've had it worse. Thats not a man you say is more of a hero because he did his job, where as Beckett was ostracized and unable to obtain a job because he had an illness that was a death sentence, yet he still wnated to fight for rights of those like him by sending a message. thats not a man you say is a better man then Robin Hood, who gave up his comfy position of wealth to reinstate the truthful king of england, fight that man that was one step removed from god, who saved a woman from a wrongful execution and helped the people who he could have just left to suffer and gained on them. thats not a man who you can tell me is better than T.E.Lawrence who fought an against one of the most powerful empires at that time (if not the), joining the roving Arab troops together as one united force, who immersed himself int he culture, who fought what was thought to be the losing battle side. And atticus holds nothing in comparison to Mr Smith, who dared to challenge not jst politics, but US politics, and changed it while fighting corruption and facing dangers of such magnitude, that Atticus' plight simply seems to be

Im not saying atticus isnt a hero. but IMHO, something you chose to question on a basis that I never gave, I dont think he should be number one. Not in that list, not in the company he stands with.


xXxJessicaxXx said:
emeraldrafael said:
and yes, i do find it poorly written. doesnt make it a bad book, just a poorly written one.
It's not poorly written, in any way. I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous. A poorly written book isn't a classic 50 years later...
I would disagree. there's a modern day book that by all rights will be a classic once the generations age that is written with every so mayn words cut out of the page. Im just not a fan of narrative storytelling like this, and I find the way that it is presented, through scout, to be poorly presented and written. its an autoiography written by a five year old. Also the writing style has little to do with it being a classic, but it the issues it tackles. Again, i didnt say its a bad book. i just find it poorly written.

And thats all I say to you on the matter.

4173 said:
...

Juror #8 is a really, really terrible juror, though I suppose that doesn't affect his heroicness. He has an ideological axe to grind and he browbeats the other jurors and makes things up. He has a good cause but uses terrible methodology. And the worst danger he faces is getting punched by Juror #3. Top 50 probably, but your ranking seems high to me.

...
I didnt say I'd rank Juror number 8 number one. On that list I'd rank ghandi number one for Nonfiction, and um.... probably Beckett as number one for "fiction" (though he's inspired by a real person, I'll still count him since atticus sits in the same position).

Juror 8 is merely just a comparison to atticus in the terms "ordinary people presented in an extraordinary circumstance". Since it seems unfair to compare atticus to someone like say superman or batman or TE lawrence or George S patton. I dont know where I'd rank him on that list, cause that list looks like it needs to be broken up between real and fictional, superpowered vs ordinary, and nonhuman vs human.

But i'd agree, top fifty... maybe... top 35? But then again, Im one of those people that likes that kinda movie and enjoyed fonda's performance through it, if performance is anything judge merit.
 

4173

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emeraldrafael said:
4173 said:
...

Juror #8 is a really, really terrible juror, though I suppose that doesn't affect his heroicness. He has an ideological axe to grind and he browbeats the other jurors and makes things up. He has a good cause but uses terrible methodology. And the worst danger he faces is getting punched by Juror #3. Top 50 probably, but your ranking seems high to me.

...
I didnt say I'd rank Juror number 8 number one. On that list I'd rank ghandi number one for Nonfiction, and um.... probably Beckett as number one for "fiction" (though he's inspired by a real person, I'll still count him since atticus sits in the same position).

Juror 8 is merely just a comparison to atticus in the terms "ordinary people presented in an extraordinary circumstance". Since it seems unfair to compare atticus to someone like say superman or batman or TE lawrence or George S patton. I dont know where I'd rank him on that list, cause that list looks like it needs to be broken up between real and fictional, superpowered vs ordinary, and nonhuman vs human.

But i'd agree, top fifty... maybe... top 35? But then again, Im one of those people that likes that kinda movie and enjoyed fonda's performance through it, if performance is anything judge merit.
Juror 8 only gets on my list because of Fonda, and because the list would be boring if it contained every two-bit action hero. I wouldn't put Atticus #1 either, as you've pointed out the stakes are too low. But Juror #8 doesn't compare to Atticus in my mind. At the end of the day all he accomplished was to call out a couple racists and encourage the jury not to make a rash decision. To accomplish that, he breaks the law and all sorts of rules for a juror. I'm not saying a hero must adhere to the rules, but he makes a mockery of them to win a battle that only exists because he created it.
 

Atticus89

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He screwed up the ecosystem because he tried to please a pack of hungry hyenas who wanted all the food for themselves. I don't think he's so much evil but simply inept with the power he wanted so badly.
 

lacktheknack

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2HF said:
Just got home from seeing The Lion King in 3D and my opinion is now cemented forever.

Scar is far and away the best villain in a movie ever. The man (lion) is pure evil. Wittier than most villains and he actually delivers on the promise of murder and deceit.

By the way, no villain has ever had a better song in all of recorded history. Just sayin'.

Objections?
Yes, Hellfire from "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" is a better song than "Be Prepared" could ever dream of being.

I'm not just saying that to parrot the Nostalgia Critic either, it's just true. (Having a classically trained ear probably makes me biased, though.)
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Just becuase you aren't a fan of the way it is presented doesn't mean it is poorly written. That is purely subjective. The very fact that the book is written from the point of view of Scout and it comes across as an autobiography written by a child when it in fact wasn't makes it a triumph of writing.

If you think To Kill a Mockingbird is a sitcom (you do realise that means situation comedy right?) I'd suggest you go back and read it again.

Atticus goes above and beyond what was expected of him. He puts his own life at risk guarding Tom's cell unarmed and he is only saved by Scout who appeals to the familarity of the men in the mob. He doesn't know the newsman is there with a rifle keeping an eye on him. His horror when he realises his children are there is tangible in the text. Again Scouts complete innocence about what is about to happen to her father and Tom is a great piece of writing and only increases the tension. Atticus knows he can't save Tom but he tries his best and puts his entire family in danger doing so. He almost lost his children because of it. Scout was only saved by her ham costume.

I can understand how he is the top of the list becuase he typifies most heroic qualities throughout the text, as I said earlier, without becoming a mary sue. The fact that he seems so normal and realistic is another plus towards the writing.
I certainly wouldn't paint Robin Hood as a selfless hero he is mostly polictically motivated against the Sheriff of Nottingham and King John having has his title and land stripped while away at the crusades. If you are going by the modern tellings.

It's suspected in reality that he was a brutal and savage outlaw celtic barbarian who sacked villages and certainly wasn't the benevolent hero portrayed in modern times. More than a worthy competitor to Scar in fact :p
 

V8 Ninja

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You know, Scar would be a bit more of a menacing villain if Disney wasn't established as the company that likes to kill parents whenever they get the chance.
 

Lilani

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2HF said:
Just got home from seeing The Lion King in 3D and my opinion is now cemented forever.

Scar is far and away the best villain in a movie ever. The man (lion) is pure evil. Wittier than most villains and he actually delivers on the promise of murder and deceit.

By the way, no villain has ever had a better song in all of recorded history. Just sayin'.

Objections?
I think Maleficent has Scar beat. She cursed Princess Aurora to die because she wasn't invited to the royal birthday party. Then, after Aurora was asleep, she captured the prince to lock him away for 100 years. After those 100 years, she planned to release him to go kiss Aurora. He'd be a decrepit old man by that point, but she would be as young as ever. And why did she do this? She just didn't really like them. She was sort of pissed Aurora wasn't dead yet, so she settled on ruining their love in the most long and drawn-out way possible.

Maleficent wasn't after power or riches. She was just a meanie. She was the queen of darkness--she needed no other reason to be evil >:D
 

Sniperyeti

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My only objection is WTF YOU HADN'T SEEN THE LION KING BEFORE NOW?

Edit: rethinking that, I have to say Jafar is sort of more strait up evil. The fact that a disney character came out with the line 'you'd be surprised how much pain you can live through' cracks me up to this day.
 

Krion_Vark

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2HF said:
Just got home from seeing The Lion King in 3D and my opinion is now cemented forever.

Scar is far and away the best villain in a movie ever. The man (lion) is pure evil. Wittier than most villains and he actually delivers on the promise of murder and deceit.

By the way, no villain has ever had a better song in all of recorded history. Just sayin'.

Objections?
Go read Cracked's article on why Glenda the good witch is the best villain of all time.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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I'm not sure if I'd go as far to say he is the most evil villain ever, but plotting to kill your own brother and your infant nephew out of nothing but greed and jealousy is up there I'll admit.

In my opinion we have too many villains these days who oppose the protagonist because they are conflicted and traumatized, leading to a twist of logic that makes them believe that they doing the right thing, or just so mentally unstable that right and wrong have no meaning for them (*cough Joker cough*). This isn't a bad thing in itself, but is is refreshing to occasionally have someone like Scar who is just a pure bastard, who pursues goals and uses methods he knows full well make him the bad guy but is just too selfish and evil to give a shit.
 

AdumbroDeus

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emeraldrafael said:
Dirty Apple said:
According to AFI's list of all-time movie villains the top 5 are:
5. Nurse Ratched
4. Wicked Witch of the West
3. Darth Vader
2. Norman Bates
1. Dr. Hannibal Lecter

http://www.afi.com/100years/handv.aspx
really? Atticus finch is the top hero in the past 100 years. Really? Thats just sad.



Seriously, care to justify that statement?
 

Feylynn

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I'd put more explanation into my immediate choices but they're pretty subjective so I'll pick a song for them and leave it to you.
I know I'm forgetting more, and just not putting more of my favorites here but 4 is a good place to stop before I'm stuck here writing an archive.
Frollo (The Hunchback of Notre Dame)
Kefka (Final Fantasy IV)
(Final Fantasy IX)
Daemon (ReBoot)
 

emeraldrafael

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AdumbroDeus said:
emeraldrafael said:
Dirty Apple said:
According to AFI's list of all-time movie villains the top 5 are:
5. Nurse Ratched
4. Wicked Witch of the West
3. Darth Vader
2. Norman Bates
1. Dr. Hannibal Lecter

http://www.afi.com/100years/handv.aspx
really? Atticus finch is the top hero in the past 100 years. Really? Thats just sad.



Seriously, care to justify that statement?
<url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.315564-Scar-is-the-villianiest-villian-to-ever-villain-up-the-joint?page=5#12823641>yeha, have been for the <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.315564-Scar-is-the-villianiest-villian-to-ever-villain-up-the-joint?page=5#12831602>past <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.315564-Scar-is-the-villianiest-villian-to-ever-villain-up-the-joint?page=5#12831732>couple <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.315564-Scar-is-the-villianiest-villian-to-ever-villain-up-the-joint?page=5#12833222>pages. Apparently Im missing what makes atticus better then Ghandi or Schlinder or Patton or Lawrence, or superman or batman. But whatever.