Mind elaborating on this even more? Perhaps offering up some comparisons? You seem sensible and you seem to know your MMOs.EmperorSubcutaneous said:
Secret World Beta
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I freely admit that I've only played for an hour (trying to get back in but it keeps crashing), but from what I've seen so far...BloatedGuppy said:
As far as combat goes you basically just stand there pressing 1, 2, 3, etc. like any other MMO, but you do have to be facing the enemy in order to use your abilities. This is kind of a problem because the controls feel awkward and not particularly responsive, which, granted, could be because it's an unoptimized beta build. It also seems too easy to accidentally switch targets. Tougher enemies have some telegraphed moves that you can scoot out of the way of, but they're all really obvious and it's not much of a challenge. (Yet.)
The healer/tank/DPS trinity is definitely present, but at least you can swap between different roles.
Apart from the combat, it doesn't feel like your typical WoW clone. The biggest things it has to offer as far as newness goes are the lack of classes, levels, and traditional quests, though from what I've heard you still get sent out to kill and fetch things. (But what else would you expect, anyway?) There are supposedly some actual puzzles that you need to solve--hard ones, too--which I'd like to see when I finally get back in game.
I don't think I'll be able to comment on how well the lack of levels works at all this weekend, since we only have access to the Templar starter area and Kingsmouth. If you are actually able to travel to any area as soon as you start playing, then that could be a good thing. But I've heard that grinding your way through the skills feels like leveling anyway, especially since you have to go through the skills you don't want before you can get the ones you were going for. (This is by design, apparently, since it forces you to not become too specialized, but it makes the "no levels!" thing seem misleading.)
The GUI is...confusing. That's about all I have to say at the moment. It looks kind of clusterfucky, especially the subtitles which all float around on the lower left side of the screen for some reason and cover everything else up. There's a single menu up at the top left corner with everything in it, which doesn't seem like a very good idea, but we'll see.
Two more pet peeves:
1. The only fights I've been in so far have involved lots of NPCs fighting with me, and they talk. Constantly. Through the whole fight. I'd rather that not be the case.
2. The animations, especially jumping. Maybe it's because of the modern setting, but when your character suddenly floats 10 feet into the air it really takes you out of the game.
And this is the part where I admit that I didn't like The Longest Journey very much. I liked some of the characters, and some of the dialogue was very funny, but overall it felt pretty tedious, not terribly original, and full of unfun gameplay meant to lead you on to the next part of the story. (Dreamfall was even worse in this regard, with the addition of that horrendous combat.) This is the exact same feeling I'm getting from TSW so far.
I haven't come across any particularly clever dialogue yet, but I've heard it's in there so I'll keep looking. Supposedly there are also tons of references to real world things like Silent Hill and YouTube, and lots of winky, fourth-wall-breaking comments, which could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how often it happens. I saw a kind of dumb reference already; something like "We're not the Knights Templar. This isn't a terrible Dan Brown paperback. We blah blah blah drawing from ancient tradition..." And I said to myself "No, sorry guys, it still feels pretty Dan Brown-y." (The game actually feels to me like what would happen if Dan Brown wrote a White Wolf RPG.)
I've heard that the atmosphere is great, which I haven't seen yet but I'll report later.
The art style is giving me unpleasant flashbacks to Myst Online: Uru Live, which looked bad when it was released in 2003. Actually the whole game feels very much like Uru, including the awkward animations, controls, jumping, and GUI, and even the general feel. I suppose if I'd been as intrigued by TSW's lore as I was by Uru's, I would have been more willing to look past the rest of the game's issues. (Something about it also reminds me of APB, which I played for all of 5 minutes so I can't really elaborate on that. Maybe it's that everyone's the same height.)
All in all, I'd say I've been too spoiled by SWTOR (in terms of story and voice acting) and GW2 (in terms of combat, controls, UI, and general user-friendliness) to enjoy this game. But, again, I'll keep trying.
Good stuff, thanks for the summary. As I said earlier in the thread, I've pretty much written the game off due to their pricing scheme, but if it had turned out to be God's gift to gaming I might've reconsidered. If you feel like coming back to this thread with further impressions at any point, please feel free to quote me so I can pop in and see what you've got to say.EmperorSubcutaneous said:
I've played a bit longer. Apparently if you log out, you have to create a new character to play again or the game will crash. Silly betas.BloatedGuppy said:
I explored a bit more this time, and the buildings look very nice. Some have cute names like "Okham's Razor" for a barber shop, or mythological ones like a bar named "The Horned God." So that's all nice. But the NPCs just stand there, not talking or reacting to you in any way. Yeah, GW2 spoiled me again.
The controls seem better now that I've played it for a while, but combat is no more interesting than it was before. The skill system and the ability wheel in general remind me of how every Final Fantasy game has some new gimmick in their combat ("this time you need to make the enemy's bar go up instead of down!" and so on): it's just trying too hard to be different without being any better. I suppose if you just want "different" without caring about quality then this will work for you.
Nitpick time again: the range on guns doesn't seem anywhere near long enough. I think it was a shotgun that I picked up during the tutorial, and the range was only about 15 feet.
The main way of learning about the lore in the game is talking to NPCs. You have to click on a tiny speech bubble next to their head (should be able to click anywhere on the NPC, or use a keyboard shortcut near them), and a grocery list of dialogue options comes up. I groaned when I saw that. Granted, most of what they have to say is pretty short. But I'd rather learn by seeing and doing than standing there and clicking through dialogue options. It doesn't happen in a cutscene, so you can run around to some extent while they're talking--just don't go too far--but that doesn't improve things much. At least you don't have to look at your character's creepy plastic face staring over the NPC's shoulder and into your soul like you do in cutscenes.
Current summary: multiplayer Dreamfall with the combat replaced with that of the average MMO (only with fewer skills, fortunately) and a gimmicky skill system that allows you to build your own class.
More to come when I've seen Kingsmouth.
Bummer. I loved the concept and the monsters of the game, and hell, I wouldn't have cared if the combat was standard-ish mmo stuff, but......the price. To think you can get away with a 60 dollar game with 15 dollar monthly fees is just silly in this day and age. I would've played it if it was a 1 time pay (not too keen on f2p browsery garbage to be honest) but I'm confused how nobody at the studio realized that as far as mmos go, this is a very underdog and niche entry against titans like Guild Wars 2 and SWTOR. I hate this greedy mmo craze so much. How many flops will it take before someone realizes that its not worth it?
I really wanted to fight eldritch horrors too :C
I really wanted to fight eldritch horrors too :C
There really haven't been too many actual "flops". Just a lot of games that failed to reach WoW's dizzying heights. It's sort of the same as saying every game that didn't sell like Modern Warfare was a flop and a failure. Most MMOs are still turning a healthy profit.Don Savik said:
The evil thing here isn't the sub fee. If you're playing your MMO for hundreds of hours, the sub fee ends up being a negligible expense. The evil thing is charging a sub fee and then STILL locking a bunch of shit away for micro-transactions as if the game was FTP. I can't abide it.
That's exactly what this game is.Don Savik said:
I think it will have its fanbase, who will love it enough for the lore that they'll be willing to overlook its flaws. But that's about all I can say for it.
EVE niche? Where five years from now I'm reading an article describing it as "the best MMO nobody is playing", or Horizons niche, where a month into the game there are five subscribers, and two of them are dead?EmperorSubcutaneous said:
It's difficult to say at this point.BloatedGuppy said:
I've seen other people in the TSW beta saying they're having a blast with the combat, that the ability wheel is the best thing ever to happen to MMOs, that the lore is unique and intriguing and respects your intelligence, and that the atmosphere is off the charts. But...I really don't get any of that.
I mean, the lore delves into some of the more obscure mythologies of the world, which is nice. And more puzzles is always a plus. But it's just not my thing. Maybe it's because I grew up around an actual "secret society," so the idea doesn't hold any mystique for me.
I think it's going to be a very polarizing game, like TOR. There will be people who love it and people who hate it, and nothing in between.
OTO, one of the religions that grew from Aleister Crowley's writings. There have been a bunch of goofy conspiracy theorist writings about that group and others like it (which amuses the members to no end, because they're all trolls), but it makes the whole "There are people who are secretly members of secret societies of secrets who secretly control the world, and only you and other similarly-enlightened people know the truth!" angle of games like TSW feel pretty ridiculous to me.BloatedGuppy said:
All I heard was Pay2Play, Box-Price, AND Micro-transactions - yeesh, I don't see myself continuing to play it after the BETA.
But hell, I'll try for the BETA. May as well try it while I can for free. ADVENTUROUS!
But hell, I'll try for the BETA. May as well try it while I can for free. ADVENTUROUS!
I got into the regular beta (keys and everything!). Been playing since earlier this week. Not sure what of I have played is or is not under the NDA, so I will talk about what everyone can experience, Kingsmouth. And I gotta say, really liking the game so far.
The combat is okay (typical MMO affair with few wrinkles), but I love the leveling system. You basically get to make your own class, which I love.
I like how they put cutscenes before you start each quest. They give you a nice bit of flavor text and help you get to know the characters. Definitely makes the world feel more "real" than other MMOs.
The game also has a great sense of atmosphere. Feels very "Lovecraftian" at times, and reminds me of many good 80's horror movies.
Quests are generally longer and fairly interesting. Many involve some small puzzles, which I like (since it breaks up the usually "kill 20 rats" and "get 15 puppy tears" quests), and they can get rather complex. I like the "ambient" puzzles that you can find in the environment while just wandering around. I only wish you could queue up quests.
Writing is okay. Nothing spectacular, but more interesting and engaging than your typical MMO. Just okay.
I would recommend checking the game out. It ain't perfect, but it does enough different from the norm to warrant a look-see. Besides, the beta is free, so it won't cost you anything to check it out either. I know I am interested in seeing more of what the game has to offer.
The combat is okay (typical MMO affair with few wrinkles), but I love the leveling system. You basically get to make your own class, which I love.
I like how they put cutscenes before you start each quest. They give you a nice bit of flavor text and help you get to know the characters. Definitely makes the world feel more "real" than other MMOs.
The game also has a great sense of atmosphere. Feels very "Lovecraftian" at times, and reminds me of many good 80's horror movies.
Quests are generally longer and fairly interesting. Many involve some small puzzles, which I like (since it breaks up the usually "kill 20 rats" and "get 15 puppy tears" quests), and they can get rather complex. I like the "ambient" puzzles that you can find in the environment while just wandering around. I only wish you could queue up quests.
Writing is okay. Nothing spectacular, but more interesting and engaging than your typical MMO. Just okay.
I would recommend checking the game out. It ain't perfect, but it does enough different from the norm to warrant a look-see. Besides, the beta is free, so it won't cost you anything to check it out either. I know I am interested in seeing more of what the game has to offer.
In Steam voice group chat with friends just a couple hours ago, a friend recommended to come join him in the beta.
I got up to downloading it, until I realized; the game costs 50 ? and you have to pay for playing time. Also, I don't like MMORPG's in general. So I just canceled and uninstalled it.
I got up to downloading it, until I realized; the game costs 50 ? and you have to pay for playing time. Also, I don't like MMORPG's in general. So I just canceled and uninstalled it.
I got in eventually. I played for an hour, stopped for my tea, then experienced that notorious bug when I tried logging back in. So I rerolled, (lol, 6 weeks till launch, you ready Funcom?) and played for a bit more.
The combat is awful. It's very typical hotkey stuff - cooldowns, resources etc. - but it's highly unresponsive. You click a spell and it might appear to activate a good half a second later. And it might activate twice. Let me just run you through the character I was using and how this quickly became a problem.
I was using an elementalist weapon. You start with two abilities, and get a third pretty quickly. You've got a simple resource thing which is a bit like combo points I guess (actually all the weapons seem to use very similar resources). Some abilities generate this resource and others use it up. The three abilities you have near the start are as follows:
1: spammable auto-attack, generates one resource
2: strong attack, consumes two resources
so with just these two abilities you've got a simple rotation of 1-1-2 repeat, then you get
3: short cooldown, generates one resource, does bonus damage while at zero resources.
Right, so now you want to be fitting in as many 3s at zero resources as possible. The cooldown is slightly too long to repeat 3-1-2, so you're more often doing something like 3-1-2-1-1-2 and repeat. Now remember what I was saying about abilities sometimes firing twice. Say you're on one resource, and you press 1 with the intent of getting off a 2, so that you're back to zero resources ready for a 3. But then 1 fires twice instead, and now you're on three resources. Ok, so push 2 to get yourself back to one resource, and push 1 again. Again it fires twice. Fuck.
Plus the targeting seems messed up. You'll be nuking down one target and then you'll randomly switch to someone else on full HP and have to tab through them all again to find the one you were near to killing. In fact the whole interface is balls. Why can't I click on an NPC to talk to them?
If I'm honest, I do like the styling of the game. I'm not much into lore, but it's refreshing seeing something other than fairies and goblins. There was a quest about ravens that had a real Hitchcock vibe going on. The voice acting is alright, but to be honest SW:TOR did it a lot better. The outstanding negative is that your own character is completely silent through the cutscenes. The levelling system seems interesting also I guess.
But I thought it was understood these days that standard hotkey mechanics are dead. This feels like a very old game. It doesn't even feel like an old AAA, and it doesn't even feel like an old budget game up for immenent release. This feels like an alpha. It's a dated alpha for a budget MMO.
In other news: did you hear they're offering life time subscriptions?
The combat is awful. It's very typical hotkey stuff - cooldowns, resources etc. - but it's highly unresponsive. You click a spell and it might appear to activate a good half a second later. And it might activate twice. Let me just run you through the character I was using and how this quickly became a problem.
I was using an elementalist weapon. You start with two abilities, and get a third pretty quickly. You've got a simple resource thing which is a bit like combo points I guess (actually all the weapons seem to use very similar resources). Some abilities generate this resource and others use it up. The three abilities you have near the start are as follows:
1: spammable auto-attack, generates one resource
2: strong attack, consumes two resources
so with just these two abilities you've got a simple rotation of 1-1-2 repeat, then you get
3: short cooldown, generates one resource, does bonus damage while at zero resources.
Right, so now you want to be fitting in as many 3s at zero resources as possible. The cooldown is slightly too long to repeat 3-1-2, so you're more often doing something like 3-1-2-1-1-2 and repeat. Now remember what I was saying about abilities sometimes firing twice. Say you're on one resource, and you press 1 with the intent of getting off a 2, so that you're back to zero resources ready for a 3. But then 1 fires twice instead, and now you're on three resources. Ok, so push 2 to get yourself back to one resource, and push 1 again. Again it fires twice. Fuck.
Plus the targeting seems messed up. You'll be nuking down one target and then you'll randomly switch to someone else on full HP and have to tab through them all again to find the one you were near to killing. In fact the whole interface is balls. Why can't I click on an NPC to talk to them?
If I'm honest, I do like the styling of the game. I'm not much into lore, but it's refreshing seeing something other than fairies and goblins. There was a quest about ravens that had a real Hitchcock vibe going on. The voice acting is alright, but to be honest SW:TOR did it a lot better. The outstanding negative is that your own character is completely silent through the cutscenes. The levelling system seems interesting also I guess.
But I thought it was understood these days that standard hotkey mechanics are dead. This feels like a very old game. It doesn't even feel like an old AAA, and it doesn't even feel like an old budget game up for immenent release. This feels like an alpha. It's a dated alpha for a budget MMO.
In other news: did you hear they're offering life time subscriptions?
Your focusing too hard on the micro-transactions I think. If my subscription fee isn't for maximum content, what is it for? Don't say servers because that stuff is easy to maintain. Why am I paying every month if updates are extra? How soon before each patch costs $.99? Where do you draw the line? The reason subscription fees existed (past tense) was to cover the cost of continuous development. Cash shops were created to offer a different way to do that. If everone paid what it cost to run the servers you would pay maybe $.50 a month. Add in patches (including content patches) you are looking at maybe $2.50 a month total. Add in the ability to work on a quality expansion pack in reasonable time it goes up to maybe $5 a month. That would pay for all that stuff plus bring in slight profit. $15 a month is raking it in as it is. You get 1 million active users and you are making 15 million per month. (180 million per year.) The game probably costs ~100 million to develop and hardware to suport it. Maybe 150 million. Even if it reached ridiculous proportions of TOR of $200m (This is Funcom, not EA backed Bioware though) 15 months brings profit with 1 million active users, which ANY MMO worth a damn should be able to achieve. 1 million people buying a $50 game and paying $15 just once is enough to maintain servers for like 10 years. No shit.nu1mlock said:
Also, Funcom is BAD about balance anyways so it will probably be pay to win by the first expansion pack if it isn't P2W right off the bat.
Meh, all I was trying to say was that one shouldn't say the game is bad or refuse to even test it only because of a cash shop. I thought people should be a bit open minded instead of just raging because they won't have access to all the small non-gameplay changing things.
One should try it first.
Which I have now done. I'm well aware that it is a beta but I didn't really like it at all. I liked the modern setting but the rest of the game (well, of what I played for a few hours) felt just like any other standard MMO (GW2 excluded).
It also felt cheap, the launcher looked like something a 10 year old would make in Photoshop the first time he used it, the item icons all looked exactly the same (one icon per category), the skill icons looked ugly, animations were badly made, characters didn't really feel alive (especially not you).
Some of these things can of course be fixed until release, but there is a really long way to go. For a game that is supposed to be released in a month... Well, I don't even know what more to say, it won't be finished or even remotely polished by then.
One should try it first.
Which I have now done. I'm well aware that it is a beta but I didn't really like it at all. I liked the modern setting but the rest of the game (well, of what I played for a few hours) felt just like any other standard MMO (GW2 excluded).
It also felt cheap, the launcher looked like something a 10 year old would make in Photoshop the first time he used it, the item icons all looked exactly the same (one icon per category), the skill icons looked ugly, animations were badly made, characters didn't really feel alive (especially not you).
Some of these things can of course be fixed until release, but there is a really long way to go. For a game that is supposed to be released in a month... Well, I don't even know what more to say, it won't be finished or even remotely polished by then.
So, I'm about 30 hours in now (was part of the closed beta). I hated it at first, but everything I read on the FC beta boards said to stick with it because it gets better as you unlock more skills. It doesn't. Honestly, it gets worse. I've tried to like this game to the point of telling myself the ever-popular BS line "it's only beta", but I've run out of excuses. The combat is clunky and unresponsive. The mouse sensitivity is god-awful. The voice acting stinks. The puzzle quests aren't actually puzzles at all. The graphics are sub-par. The crafting system is by FAR the worst I've seen in an mmo and I've pretty much seen them all.
There is no possible way this game will be done in 5 weeks and I think it's laughable to ask people to buy the game and a sub (don't know what's in the cash shop yet) based on the devs saying that these are placeholder sounds and animations just for beta (yes they said that).
GW2 - Please don't let me down. You're my last hope in this genre
tl;dr - Try the beta. Wait at least 6 months to buy
There is no possible way this game will be done in 5 weeks and I think it's laughable to ask people to buy the game and a sub (don't know what's in the cash shop yet) based on the devs saying that these are placeholder sounds and animations just for beta (yes they said that).
GW2 - Please don't let me down. You're my last hope in this genre
tl;dr - Try the beta. Wait at least 6 months to buy
I made a new character with an Assault Rifle just for shits and giggles. It's pretty similar, but with a seperate crippling issue. This time you've got combo points like before with generators and spenders, but the points apply to the enemies rather than to yourself. You remember what I said about the targets randomly switching during a fight? Yeah, that gets really annoying. I've worked out if you've targeted an enemy yourself via click or tab, then it'll stick to that enemy until it's dead, but if you use an attack without a target so that you get given a target automatically, then that's when it'll start switching willy-nilly. So first target in a pack is fine, but once that one is dead you'll inevitably have fired off another attack at a random target before you've had chance to target one yourself due to the lag (see the bit above about abilities firing twice in a row). At this point, do you carry on with that enemy and just hope your target doesn't get switched before you can get a finisher off, or do you retarget manually and waste that initial attack + resources? Either way, I call that assbackward.
What is it with MMO developers thinking gameplay doesn't matter?
I'm imagining avid fans pointing to stuff like this sometime in the future, and I know exactly the word they're going to use. It's "hardcore". Like it's somehow superior when the quests aren't intuitive and you have to spend much of your time outside of combat working out whatever the fuck you're supposed to be doing (actually, with combat this bad that does have it's upside). Whereas, a game like GW2 which has fairly straightforward quest objectives and the challenge is in the actual gameplay, that's going to be called "casual". Well bugger it, I'm a casual then.
What is it with MMO developers thinking gameplay doesn't matter?
The only "puzzling" thing I've found so far is that the quest directions are completely lacking. Like for instance the main quest in the zombie town asks you to go and find survivors. You find them, you talk to them, you do missions for them, but what are you actually supposed to be doing to advance the main mission? Well it doesn't tell you, and I've not worked it out yet. Is this supposed to be the appeal? Is tip-toeing around a room furiously clicking on anything and everything in the hopes of finding a quest item appealing?Spartan212 said:
I'm imagining avid fans pointing to stuff like this sometime in the future, and I know exactly the word they're going to use. It's "hardcore". Like it's somehow superior when the quests aren't intuitive and you have to spend much of your time outside of combat working out whatever the fuck you're supposed to be doing (actually, with combat this bad that does have it's upside). Whereas, a game like GW2 which has fairly straightforward quest objectives and the challenge is in the actual gameplay, that's going to be called "casual". Well bugger it, I'm a casual then.
Oh don't worry, it's way ahead of this shit.Spartan212 said:
There's a lot to this game that I don't like. I mentioned a few of them in my last post just above. Another is the "find these items quests" where you, for example, have to find six (or so) lost pages.
This is really boring, the indicators where they are, they're okay, but can cover quite an area. That wouldn't have been a problem if the pages didn't look exactly like other white garbage thrown around town.
Not to mention that they disappear when someone has "used" them, which is another big problem during the beta. When I was searching for those missing pages, there were about 10 other people doing the same thing.
"First come, first serve", as soon as someone read a page, it disappeared for, I don't know, maybe 30 seconds. Didn't see the guy picking it up? Sucks to be you, the page was nowhere to be found and you'd have to run around the same area for 5 minutes.
Saw the guy picking it up? Great, all you have to do is stand and wait for it to re-spawn, together with 10 other people doing the same thing, trying to get the page as soon as it spawns. Didn't click first? Be still for another 30 seconds, hope that no one else will fill that first guys spot and hope that you'll be first on the page next time.
That's just one of the worthless quest this game has that makes you want to hit something.
Really bad animations, voice acting and especially retarded dialogue doesn't make it any better.
This is really boring, the indicators where they are, they're okay, but can cover quite an area. That wouldn't have been a problem if the pages didn't look exactly like other white garbage thrown around town.
Not to mention that they disappear when someone has "used" them, which is another big problem during the beta. When I was searching for those missing pages, there were about 10 other people doing the same thing.
"First come, first serve", as soon as someone read a page, it disappeared for, I don't know, maybe 30 seconds. Didn't see the guy picking it up? Sucks to be you, the page was nowhere to be found and you'd have to run around the same area for 5 minutes.
Saw the guy picking it up? Great, all you have to do is stand and wait for it to re-spawn, together with 10 other people doing the same thing, trying to get the page as soon as it spawns. Didn't click first? Be still for another 30 seconds, hope that no one else will fill that first guys spot and hope that you'll be first on the page next time.
That's just one of the worthless quest this game has that makes you want to hit something.
Really bad animations, voice acting and especially retarded dialogue doesn't make it any better.