Senior EVE Online Community Member Killed in Libya Riot
- Thread starter Karloff
- Start date
I like you.Dimitriov said:
Seriously, everyone in this thread spouting about how ignorant and backwards Islamic culture is is on the same path of ignorance and destruction as the assholes that did this crime. This was not a religious killing, it was a political killing that was masked by an unrelated religious dispute. Libyan citizens were photographed pulling wounded Americans away to take them to hospitals. This whole "Islam is a destructive religion!" thing is ignoring some basic damn facts about Islam.
Like how Christians and Jews are brothers in Islam and are supposed to be treated equally for one. Yeah, that little religious law is ignored both by the murderous assholes and the bigots.
The issue isn't that any one religion is evil or destructive. All of them have good and bad, be they Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or whatever the fuck. Islam flourished for hundreds of years due to an emphasis on natural science, a politically unifying theology, and personal rights superior to those found in Europe for women and in many cases men. They floundered due to political instability caused by secular issues (collapses of empires, the British coming in an d ruining everything like they always do in every situation ever) and tinpot asshole dictators that used the laws of Islam to justify their own backwards beliefs.
Your culture is not superior. Your ideology is not better. Your religion is not more right. To think any of those is to follow the same path as those who would use a religious riot to cover up murder.
Deal with it.
Boy, talk about an overreaction to a B-movie....It's like finding a cook with a gun to your head after you told her there was too much mayo in the potato salad.
You did a real nice job of repeating yourself over & over in that first paragraph.
You did a real nice job of repeating yourself over & over in that first paragraph.
You don't no what it's supposed to mean but you know it's false? He was making a point that without Science i.e. (Medical treatment) the life expediency is around 25 year where the average life expediency where medical treatment is more available is much higher 75 years.Dimitriov said:
But why you got in such a huffy over that point I have no clue.
20% of the words population vs 1 University stop making excuses, you cannot say that's all from a lack of economic activity that's just absurd.....Dimitriov said:
Also I do not make apologies for creationism IMO it's something that also has to go.
Video doesn't mention anything about the Dark Ages.Dimitriov said:
I'm not missing it you're miss quoting it and miss representing it, they gained most of their knowledge by slaughtering & concurring other nations. Not to mention it's not even relevant to what is going on now because it happened hundred's of years ago. Comparing Scientific contribution today to Scientific contribution in 750-1250 is ridiculous.Dimitriov said:
Basically they're rioting and killing people over some low budget movie and comment made by a directer. How that is supposed to prove him wrong is beyond me,.Johnson McGee said:
Apart from the lives of millions of innocent people but hey, I guess they don't count.FelixG said:It truly is. If someone dropped a B/C weapon on the area...nothing of value would be lost.MCGT said:Genocide of an entire region is definitely a reasonable and sensible solution to the problems in the Middle East.Therumancer said:To be honest I can't make any judgements about Vile Rat as a person, having never met him, going by his name and affiliations... well, I'd imagine "nice guy" probably isn't a good description unless you were on his side... but heck, that's gaming. It's sad to know such a dedicated gamer and part of the US diplomatic corps has passed on though, especially under these circumstances.
That said, if Vile Rat was a diplomat, I doubt he'd agree with what I'm about to say but... I think this pretty much demonstrates that the Muslim cultures simply cannot exist on the same planet with everyone else, something that goes beyond any one nation in the region, and also needs to be seperated from Islam itself which can be practiced peacefully even if the vast number of adherants that dominate The Middle East choose not to, and maintain a xenophobic way of life that might be thousands of years old, but has become a cancer to progress.
When a trailer for a movie that happens to be offensive to your point of view incites riots against international targets of this sort, I think we've gone beyond any arguements that problems in the region are simply the result of a tiny, radical minority. This is like right wingers rallying en-masse and going on killing rampages over a Michael Moore documentary, or people shooting up The House Of Representitives over "Passion Of The Christ". If this was an isolated incident it would be one thing, but the simple fact that we're in a very similar place periodically it seems shows that measured response and peaceful attempts at negotiation have failed. Heck, they attacked our diplomats who are the peaceful talkative guys, yet again, and this was over a bloody movie trailer.
I've said all of this before, but honestly, how many times do we need to visit incidents like this? From where I'm sitting out leaders are talking a good game, but when it comes to action they are simply reaching for ever larger tubes of lube, and as they do, we seem to be encouraging things to just get worse.
I felt the need to say my piece here, I had been avoiding the topic, but for some reason learning that a big time EVE player and Goon died kind of bugs me. I played EVE at a very casual high-sec level for a while, and call Something Awful once in a while to read the main page for a laugh. I guess it just hit closer to home, and has really gotten my usual sentiments roiling. In the end I pretty much think it's just time to unleash all the nasty weapons we keep around but won't use for moral reasons (which doesn't even need to include nukes) and bring Armageddon to the region. Heck if people are concerned about Genocide, just put some egg cells and sperm into a bank to be thawed out later. Besides I'd kind of get a kick out of telling the descendants of a formerly theocratic culture that freaks out over movie trailers and wants me dead that their creator is an American in a lab coat that combined them, and that if they need a god his name is Doctor Pointdexter (or whatever).
Yes, I'm angry again, so take that for what it's worth.
Actually several are recorded before that (9th Century), including the asclepeion of Kos, where Hippocrates studied medicine. Some have argued the Mihintale hospital to be older, based on a 10th century inscription found on site.Mr F. said:
Damascus, Aleppo, Byblos, Crocodilopolis (currently named Faiyum), and Athens all vie for this one. None of them have rock solid evidence of 'continuous' habitation, but all have some evidence going back past the 7k year mark.Mr F. said:
While, under normal circumstances, I would happily cheer on any angry mob that, say, wanted to storm the mittani's house and hold a human bonfire, Vile Rat was one of the few decent people I encountered in the swarm's mountain of subhuman asshats, and this makes it all the more tragic.
All anger aside, my basic arguement is that we make weapons of last resort for a reason. Last resort is differant from "never used". Short of things like nukes we have developed weapons like Daisy Cutter Bombs which are pretty much designed to wipe out large numbers of soft targets in places like villages, and all kinds of other high end "conventional" weapons intended to pretty much blow an opponent out of existance. The same basic tactics employed by guys like Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris during World War II, albiet with better technology.MCGT said:
There actually is a point where you exhaust all other reasonable avenues, and anything you try is just a variation on something else that has failed, and is itself going to be doomed to failure for the same reasons. We've tried "winning the peace", police actions, measured responses, and other thigns. As time goes on it's become increasingly obvious that we're dealing with a culture where the poison is so deep into the everyman, that what we want to see as a radical fringe is pretty much well... anyone who shares those cultural beliefs.
A lot of my renewed anger (which comes in spurts when things like this happen, and usually have me making similar arguements) come from the simple fact that the poison is so deep over there that this attack was motivated by a TRAILER for an art film that showed in like one theater. The attack motivated by the idea that the world should treat Islam as sacred, which is directly contrary to the beliefs of the US where we have both Freedom Of Speech, AND a Seperation Of Church and State, criticisms of religious institutions, govermental institutions, and everything else are way of life here. Heck, people produce offensive works about Christians and other groups all the bloody time, and it's one of our rights to do so. The problem is that the Islamics, or more specifically those who practice the majority cultural version of it in The Middle East respond with violence where other mature groups take the criticism, and perhaps learn from it.
Things have gotten to the point where given the wall we've put ourselves into, not being wiling to attack for moral reasons, we are actually giving terrorists what they want. Right now there is a federal investigation going on over some dude's art film, and we have terrified actors making outlandish claims about being ignorant of the purpose of the work due to the threat of violence. Our goverment (according to the Yahoo news page) has actually revealed the real name of the film maker who has gone into hiding.
Basically we're in a position right now where we either bow to terrorism, which we are doing, and giving these people what they want, or take them out. Due to the inabillity of our goverment to deal with the problem and take these people down, we see the US increasingly changing to avoid accidently antagonizing Islamics because of the culture of that region. I have an issue with that from a country that has embraced freedom of speech to the point of letting the workks of authors like "Dan Brown" and others which can be taken as pretty anti-catholic slide, and then behaves this way.
It might not be as dramatic a threat as say the Nazis, but it's very real. What should we do change our entire way of life to make special execeptions to our fundemental freedoms for the sake of Islam? We do that and then what happens when the next group comes along and does the same things. The Hindus start murdering people, do we make an exception there? What about The Catholics or Protestants if they decided to get violent about some of the treatment their faith has seen in the media? What about fringe cults.
There is a reason why we do not negotiate with, or work with people who do this kind of thing, but as time goes on we're doing it because we're unwilling to take the kinds of actions I mention. It might not be dramatic but if we continue down this path it will destroy the US far more completly than actually using the weapons we have to destroy a weapon ever would. It's not like we didn't try, despite what some people might want to claim.
That's what I think at any rate, and also "genocide" is a bit dramatic, but in the end one also has to ask if preserving someone trying to destroy you is worth it. Arguably if you argue idealogical genocide simply convincing them to change, if such a thing was possible (given that this is faith based rather than rational) would also be idealogical genocide. Even at my worst (which is not always 100% serious, I do have my own sense of humor which I insert into things to try and lighten up serious topics, which a lot of people don't seem to get) understand that the arabic genes, the genotype, would continue to survive. Heck Islam itself would continue to survive, it would just be the end of a specific meta-culture based on Islam. The religion CAN be practiced peacefully (as Christianity, which at it's core is just as nasty) without getting in anyone's way, it's just that hundreds of millions of people in a specific part of the world choose not to, and spread their ideas globally leading to these problems. Knock out the source, and I think over time you'll see change, and then it will be mostly peaceful Islam, with a tiny number of radicals... or simply put the equasion we want to believe exists now.
Understand something here also, and why I am again so POed. As I've said otherwise in this post, these attacks were motivated by a trailer for a movie that people saw over the internet. A movie which was shown at like ONE theater. We saw a riot and a direct attack on the USA because of some dweebs art film that wasn't even shown in their country. In response to these attacks, our goverment is actually investigating this guy like he did something wrong. Like many critical/art film makers he used a pseudonym, and under the threat of violence his real name has been released, knowing that millions of people want him dead for these stupid reasons (it's like the whole "Satanic Verse" thing again, but even more insane). This is like the goverment giving Dan Brown to the Catholic Church to be punished, or executing Gene Wilder for doing "Wooley Moses" or whatever it was (I think I have the actor and name right). At the very worst this guy deserves to be considered a Mel Gibson type douchebag... yet we're basically assisting the guys who attacked our country over this according to what I've been reading.
I'm angry not just because of the embassy attack, but because of what it's doing to our country, and our bloody priorities, where we actually think some guy making a douchebag art movie that shows in one theater makes him a bad guy. By that logic the political parties he's criticized should have Michael Moore as public enemy #1.
Just quoting you because you know what you said. You are stating that genocide is a good idea. For once arguments along the lines of "You are similar to hitler" make total sense. Although you are a damn sight more ignorant then hitler. At least he had a half-functioning brain.Therumancer said:
Apart from the economic and environmental fallout from nuking the entire arab world which would, without a doubt, cause the fucking apocalypse, even if you totally disregard the humans you wish to slaughter...
Nope, that covers it.
You are preaching genocide. You are, without a doubt, a horrible person.
The riots occured because of socio-economic reasons which drive people towards radicalised forms of religion and politics. People who have a healthy lot in life do not just riot. Seriously.ElPatron said:
From talking to Afghani taxi drivers whilst out in the UAE you get a different perspective on things. Like the Mullahs in the mosques out there, their choices are limited. I mean, what would you do? The choice is "Preach what we want you to preach and get a million dollar payday or do as you please and get a bullet through your head"
Carrot and fucking stick.
This is not so "Simple" as you people seem to think it is. Perhaps this film did have something to do with the riots (Whether that is true or false will never be proved or disproved, it may have been a catalyst, nothing more, like the murder of an innocent black man at the hands of the British police. It was a catalyst of a month of riots, not the cause.) This is not black and white, not "Islam v World". Thinking it is so simple is destructive.
So, to you morons (Yes, I did just call you morons. If I get a warning for insulting those who are being racist and or INCITING MASS MURDER/GENOCIDE then so be it, this is not so black and white. This is not so simple.
Stop with this "Them Vs Us"
Stop and think. For more then half a fucking second.
And to you, Therumancer, you are a despicable human being. A true idiot. Either you are trying to make a light hearted joke "Haha, Millions of people being slaughtered because they have different views and opinions to my own!" which nobody finds funny or you genuinely are one of the worst kinds of racist prick.
Either way I am game.
This is not the time and place to discuss genocide, the slaughter of innocents or the pros and cons of the Islamic faith. To be honest there are no places where it should be fine to discuss genocide.
I know this post is utterly pointless. Those of you who assume that Islam is a force for pure evil, based on propaganda (In my eyes all media is propaganda.) and your own warped world view. I will not change any minds, Therumancer will post another word-wall filled with flimsy justifications for genocide and the rest of you will keep trashing the Islamic faith.
Well to be honest, I AM a bastard when it comes to this kind of thing, and I've always said so.Mr F. said:
You might actually want to read up on World War II though. To be honest my outlook is more similar to "The Greatest Generation" that supported the war that stopped Hitler, as oppoed to the isolationists of the time, or the hippies and social reformers that came later which is where your general attitude comes from. Throwing Hitler around shows you really have no idea what your talking about.
In the end the bottom line is that when someone attacks the USA, or presents a threat to it, I believe in taking them out. In comparison Hitler acted against Jews, Gypsies, etc... when they presented no real threat on this level to Germany. Had Jews been bombing and hijacking planes, attacking embassies over movie theaters, and similar things it would have been an entirely differant situation.
What's more when we fought The Axis in what was our last real war we massacred people in massive quantities, guys like Sir Arthur Harris dropped bombs directly on German civilians to cripple the infrastructure, heck he killed our own people who were being forced to work. When it was over we pretty much pretended the atrocities we committed never happened, while exagerrating those of the enemy, and then divvied up the country and it's technology with
the Russians. We were NOT nice guys, like most things, the biggest bastards won, we beat Hitler by being worse than Hitler, according to many estimates we dropped more ordinance on the Axis than the Axis did during the blitz. It's just the winners get to write the history books.
In short, war sucks, there is no good or evil, just us or them. Wars are to be avoided, but sometimes they cannot be avoided.
Alright now to correct a few things:
1. I never said anything about nuking the Arab world. While I might have mentioned it might come to that, my actual comments involved using high end conventional ordinance. The stuff we don't use because we're concerned about collateral damage and so on. Basically we take off the kid gloves, and we pretty much drop megatons of bombs, missles, and other weapons on every town, city, village, and other target we can find throughout the region, both to cripple it's infrastructure (involving food and water production) and to devestate the population and it's morale. You want the survivors to realize there is nothing they can do to stop you from killing them, and be willing to do anything to make the death and devestation stop. Sure, at first there is resistance and furor, but that only lasts as long as the people think they have a chance.
2. Note that I said "survivors" above. No one is talking about genocide. Even at my worst and most angry I do not advocate the death of every arab, or hunting down anyone who so much glances at a Koran or anything so ridiculous. I'm talking about targeting a specific theocratic culture that does involve a lot of people, and breaking them. Sure, most of them will be dead, but it will go on, and the point is that if broken sufficiently you'll see the end of the specific Islamic schools of thought that cause these problems. It will REALLY be a radical minority of people, as opposed to a majority. Much like how Nazi Germany transformed from a fury obsessed cult of personality to a place where the Nazis are a reviled minority and seen as a blight on the history of Germany.
Even if we DID kill everyone in the geographic middle east, just for the sake of arguement, there are still tons of Islamics and Arabs living abroad. Unless I was suggesting we hunt them down internationally (which goes beyond the power of the US) and kill them to a man... which is pretty much what Hitler was doing with the Jews, it couldn't be a genocide.
In short, you might hate what I'm saying, but at least get your rhetoric right. The term of outrage your looking for is "Mass Murderer". I don't think it applies during war, but since you disagree with me, I think it's the one that most fits your criticism.
Read my posts before you spout off about what I'm saying.
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All of that, and my anger aside, I'll also put it to you another way: Do you have a better solution that isn't a variation on something we have tried before?
I mean seriously, to say that what I'm suggesting is wrong or unworkable implies there are viable solutions. To be honest people who disagree with me have been running the show for decades now, and my latest outburst is because we just got an Embassy attacked over a movie trailer. People who apparently think like you are basically investigating/hunting down a douchebag art move director, and giving the people who attacked us exactly what they wanted, and ultimatly stepping over everything that this country is supposed to stand for. Someone in the USA has the right to be critical of Islam, Christianity, political parties, or anything else, heck we're actually supposed to encourage people to do exactly what this guy was doing. Instead we've basically outed him and we have him and at least one of the actresses hiding in fear and trying to distance themselves from the project due to threat of violence.
You might not like it, but the reason why I'm raving again is because from where I'm sitting, all arguements about how the US might somehow "lose the soul that makes it what it is" if we were to engage in a real war and take these guys out, seem like a joke when we're losing that anyway.
I'll also say flat out, as I did before, when would YOU think we should break out our full military power? The US is under threat, and really this is probably like the 100th act of war that we've turned the other cheek on. Overall, I don't even consider what I'm suggesting an act of aggression, since we'd simply be responding the the cumulative total of acts that have been being committed over decades. How many chances are we supposed to give the region? Are we supposed to change the US to say "Freedom of Speech, and Seperation Of Church and State, EXCEPT when it comes to Islam?".
I missed his post but rounding up goonswarm and putting them all to death is hardly genocide. Unless you consider assholes a race.Mr F. said:
Random movie maker calls Muslim people a cancer, so in response they prove him right...
sigh, I really wish I was joking but it only takes a few people to make everyone look bad.
sigh, I really wish I was joking but it only takes a few people to make everyone look bad.
If your solution involves the slaughter of millions, the solution cannot be considered on any rational level. Firstly.Therumancer said:
Secondly, you are calling for the mass murder of people based on their ethnic origin. You are not making any disclaimers, you are calling for the slaughter of men, women, children, the inhabitants of countries directly allied to the United States and people who have no problem with anyone and simply want to keep farming the old family farm and stay out of things.
Heres a quick definition of Genocide, which does cover what you are stating.
gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Noun:
The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
Thirdly, the people you wish to slaughter do not pose any threat whatsoever to the United States of America. If embassies in countries that recently overthrew a dictator and are as unstable as a fucking seesaw manned by obese kids hopped up on crack cocaine get attacked, well, maybe it is about time you pulled the embassies out. Realisticically, the Arab world poses no threat to the United States. No threat to anyone outside of the region. So you are calling for the slaughter of millions based upon a percieved threat, you consider their culture to be a threat. You are calling for war crimes to be committed.
And whilst I accept your views that the war was won through the slaughter of innocents, you are mistaking the nature of the world right now for a war. There is no war. There are no enemies. Whilst we, the victors, wrote the history books, there are plenty of people who remember the crimes we committed. Plenty who think that our lot should have been charged with the same war crimes.
Hell, there are people, right now, calling for Tony Blair and George W to be taken off to the Hague and charged with war crimes.
9/11: 2,996 people killed
War on Terror:
Iraq: 62,570 to 1,124,000
Afghanistan: between 10,960 and 49,600
Pakistan: Between 1467 and 2334
If this is a war you are already fucking winning.
There are distinctly different cultures and creeds clashing because capitalism demands it.
Do you have any idea how diverse the Arab world is? Do you have any idea how racist it is to brand all of those who are Muslim under the same creed, to indicate they are all the same? Jesus christ.
You ser, are insane. Genuinely. Quite simply you are racist and delusional. Go join your brother Beivik.
He thought that the Islamic world was a threat to his way of life. He decided to take matters into his own hands and slaughter innocent children. Then again, what he did takes more balls then what you are preaching. You want the big bad government to go out there and slaughter those who you are scared of.
Fuck it.
This is the nature of the internet isnt it? As the argument progresses both sides get progressively radical. America created the Taliban to fight Communism. You funded them, you trained them, you armed them. And now they are trying to fight back, because they hate you. America is the largest cause of international terrorism in the world. You allowed funds to be diverted into the arms of a terrorist group that was blowing up innocent civilians in teh United Kingdom, you have taken down democractically elected leaders and slaughtered thousands to advance your goals.
If you take assaults on american citizens so personally then I can call you a represenetative of your blood soaked country.
Reap what you fucking sow.
It has NOTHING to do with religion, and everything to do with being jerkass wanker thugs! I'm religious, and when a few years ago some dude release some "art" involving a Crucifix submerged in his own urine I didn't issue death threats, I didn't storm the embassy of his nation, I didn't even demand that he apologise, or that his funding be cut, no the most I did was turn up my lip in disgust and turn away from it.Eveonline100 said:
In short I acted like a civilised human being.
These people (the thugs who invaded the embassy, not any racial, national, cultural, or religious group) are wankers who use religion as an excuse to murder. Stop blaming anyone's faith and blame them for being uncivilised wankers.
Okay, first, keep it polite. I'm not going to bother to even have discourse with you otherwise. Yes I *DID* correct you, but you are swearing and everything else. If you can't handle discussing a big issue without totally flying off the handle, you might want to avoid topics like this, otherwise your pretty much just trolling for a flame war.Mr F. said:
Second, you might want to actually read what I've said. Your again going off about ethnicity when I've very specifically said, on numerous occasions, that ethnicity has nothing to do with it. This is about a culture war, NOT about destroying the arabic ethnicity. It's not even about destroying the religion, but a culture built up by those people and around interpetations of that religion. I really don't give a damn what their ethnicity is. It's sort of like fighting the Nazis, sure most of the people involved were German, but the idea wasn't specifically to destroy all Germans, it was to wipe out that idealogy and it's culture, which incidently involved killing lots and lots of people, INCLUDING children (The Hitler Youth didn't just vanish into the mists because they were inconveinent, and people tend to want to entirely forget about the Volkssturm in the last days and what needed to be done there).
On some levels you ARE correct that war in general is not "rational" actually it's a failure of rationality when two groups of people cannot co-exist by definition. In such a conflict one or the other eventually has to be destroyed, usually on a cultural/societal level as opposed to an ethnic one. Wars are to be avoided, but when they happen, it's an entirely differant ballgame and all focus comes down to making sure it's your people that remain intact. By defninition every war was a failure of rationality, but that doesn't change the inevitability and occasional nessecity of it.
In the end there is nothing especially unusual about what I'm talking about, it's pretty typical of wars. It's just that you are of course opposed to war, and see the folly of it to the point that you don't want to accept the nessecity of it at all. The classic "peace at any price" position which is itself full of even worse folly, but leads to an entirely differant discussion.
The differance between what I'm advocating, and any other successful war in history is simply that I'm talking about doing it now, and involving the reality you live in. It's one thing to look back at World War II and accept the deaths of a huge percentage of the global population, the decimation of German and Japan and their populations, and the massacre of civilians on an epic scale as something that was nessicary, and another to realize that you have to do it again. People in general hate wars, and never want to accept when one becomes nessicary, especially in the western world, and even more so in the US, and that's in part why we infamously only get involved at the last possible second and try and pull off a split second save.
Now, to explain something. When I talk about going after the region, understand that while there are differances they are all united by one general islamic culture. This is why guys like Bin Ladin offered to surrender if he would be tried before "an islamic court" and why there are concerns that disarming Iran will turn the entire region against us. While the differant factions dislike each other, they hate outsiders even more. What one Islamic in this meta-culture does to another is differant than what an outsider does. Dislike of anything non-Islamic is one of the few things that sort of unites the nations behind the scenes. Heck, during "Desert Storm" Saddam was hiding some of his war materials over the Iranian border (with permission) so we wouldn't strike them, despite Iraq and Iran being bitter enemies.
In general when it comes to the region if we don't have trouble with Iraq, it's Iran, if it's not Iran it's Pakistan, if it's not Pakistan it's Libya, if it's not Libya , it's our "buddies" in Saudi Arabia. It's ongoing, almost like a game of meta-cultural hot potato, back and forth, around and around. I think that the big problem is that we make things complicated by viewing them all as distinct nations and seperate entities, when really the problem is the meta-culture they all happen to share, that is the root of the problem more than any paticular national goverment or leader.
I'd also point out that your 100% correct that we made a lot of these problems worse, largely by not wanting to accept what we were dealing with. We were the ones who built up Saddam to oppose Iran, and he turned on us. We build up the Taliban to fight the Russians, they turned on us. We made an alliance with Pakistan, and they pretty much wound up hiding Bin Ladin from us and turned on their own intelligence guys who handing him over. Basically by showing trust and trying to work with people in the region to deal with problems we inevitably wind up with a giant dagger sticking out of our back and an even bigger headache. From my perspective the message I take away from all of this is that you can't trust any of these guys.
Also while there might only be a handfull of fighters, it's the culture, and the ideas that are held by the general populance that lead to the constant production of such people. It's sort of like how you might not actually carry a gun, but support the US military, or in this case the general idealogy one of those guys happens to want to fight for. Of course admittedly a lot of this is the result of early cultural indoctrination, I've posted links to things like Islamic children's programming teaching them to hate Americans and Jews from an early age. They even "martyred" a basic analogy of Mickey Mouse on one of them.
Basically that guy just sitting there raising his goats contributes by being part of the basic idealogy, just as we all contribute to the American cultural meta consciousness in the US. If you take out the goverment, that guy still holds the same basic idealogy and all the other guys that think the same way and have been raised like that will ultimatly just build mk. 2 of the same thing. This is why after our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq we failed to achieve things like women's sufferage and a seperation of church and state, the problem was that the issues weren't from a group of military strongmen, but from the people themselves and the way they practiced those beliefs.
Thus, in order to stop it, you need to break that entire culture, remove the central belief and hope in it. You can't ever really kill an idea, but you can seriouly damage the number of believers and force it down to a whisper. It's sort of like Nazism in World War II, Hitler was a hugely charismatic leader, and toast of the world for a while, his nation became what amounted to a cult of personality. His allies, the Japanese were the same way in the fanatic pursuit of their own culture. In the end they were broken not because of the decimation of the military and the leadership, but because of the decimation of the cultures. The A-bombs in Japan utterly shattered their core beliefs and sense of self identity (a lot has been written about it) it brought about utter hopelessness. With Germany there were plenty of farmers and such just out their doing their thing that got carpet bombed to death, when people saw it it broke the back of the general support. Today radical Japanese and Nazis of varuious stripes still exist, but they are a whisper of what they once were. You can make a movie about killing Nazis (say Inglorious Basterds) without having a bunch of people in Germany attack your embassy.
I doubt you'll read all of this any more than you read what I said before, but this is an explanation of where my anger takes me. I understand you don't agree with me, but at least do it for the right reasons, and try and remain polite.
From my perspective I am advocating nothing differant than what was done to stop the Axis Powers during World War II, using pretty much the exact same techniques. Also understand I'm not saying this because "I'm afraid of people that are differant" or any other crap. There are plenty of cultures out there differant from mine that I have no issue with. The key element here is that I'm tired of being attacked, and I don't like how my country is changing and losing it's core values (freedom of speech, etc...) in response. I believe wars are something to be avoided, but honestly I think we long ago reached the point where we've been denying the inevitable... and when I see an embassy attacked due to the trailer for an arthouse movie there are no words for the rage I feel, and it becomes even worse when our goverment investigates the guy who made it, acting as if he did something wrong, despite the core values our country was supposed to be based on.
If you can't remain civil in a discussion, and actually read what i'm saying, then we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that, and you might want to avoid my political posts in the future (especially after an attack on the US when I'm irritated). You probably won't have much of an issue with what I say about gaming though.
Hey, hey guys. Hey.
The people behind the death of the ambassador and this guy were probably looking for any bullshit excuse to kill people they see as enemies to their religion or beliefs. This video happened to be around at the right time.
So rather than sayin "Oh my gosh, who would kill over such a trivial reason?" Just think that, 99.9% of the islamic community won't react in extreme ways. Will they be annoyed? Yes. Will they find such a video incredibly ignorant and disrespectful? Yes. Will they want to kill someone for it? No.
Or to put it another way, for the 0.1% of western communities who are ignorant and disrespectful towards muslims, people who we generally condemn (Koran burning guy comes to mind), there'll be a similar amount of muslims looking for any excuse to burn flags/buildings/ start riots etc.
The people behind the death of the ambassador and this guy were probably looking for any bullshit excuse to kill people they see as enemies to their religion or beliefs. This video happened to be around at the right time.
So rather than sayin "Oh my gosh, who would kill over such a trivial reason?" Just think that, 99.9% of the islamic community won't react in extreme ways. Will they be annoyed? Yes. Will they find such a video incredibly ignorant and disrespectful? Yes. Will they want to kill someone for it? No.
Or to put it another way, for the 0.1% of western communities who are ignorant and disrespectful towards muslims, people who we generally condemn (Koran burning guy comes to mind), there'll be a similar amount of muslims looking for any excuse to burn flags/buildings/ start riots etc.
