Seriously, stop calling it the "God Particle"

chuketek

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MartialArc said:
...so we're like the blind leading the blind here =). Maybe the OP will indulge us some more.
Agreed, string theory never really interested me that much, so I know about as much as the next technical person who's had a quick read. You sound like you probably know more about it than me...
(Interesting point, I did actually attend a series of lectures on string theory at a "summer school" although during the winter. The problem was they were in Japanese... so I lost the plot about halfway through.)

Oh, and I am the OP. So all hope of a decent answer is lost I'm afraid.
 

Hugga_Bear

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I agree that we should stop calling it, I debate religion a lot. Mostly in regards to politics and science, unsurprisingly I've had more than a few idiots claim that the God particle is something to do with God, either that finding it will prove God's existence, or it will make us gods or something along those lines.

Clearly, that line of thought is utterly moronic, if I called an ice cream sundae the Sundae God eating it won't make you omnipotent.
As has been stated, some journalists somewhere picked up on it and flounced it around, people with no idea of science or the LHC decided it was something else and refuse to change their false belief because they thought of it first so it's right goshdarnit!

Anyway, little as I like appealing to the masses the name is misleading, I do wish people would stop using it, since it evidently confuses a lot of people.

It's like the word theory, which in science is the highest attainable level but in colloquial usage is conjecture, when the ill educated or ignorant hear the word they jump all over it and if it's tied in with something important to them (religion or politics being the big two) then they'll refuse to acknowledge any external evidence, regardless of it's size or accuracy.

tl;dr people are idiots and we should try to avoid confusing them.
 

BNguyen

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It seems to me that the name of "God Particle" really fits,
you see, in religion, life cannot exist without the interference of a god-like being and without the Higgs-Boson, matter itself cannot exist as it would have no mass, thus it is like the central particle or force that allows for existence at all, so I think the name shouldn't be changed, as long as people could understand this sort of viewpoint without going crazy
or if no one likes that name, called them Focals as in 'focal points' the center particle of existence
 

newwiseman

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If anything I will except the name "God Particle" for the theoretical singularity that existed before the big bang, the thing that exploded.
 

chuketek

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BNguyen said:
It seems to me that the name of "God Particle" really fits,
you see, in religion, life cannot exist without the interference of a god-like being and without the Higgs-Boson, matter itself cannot exist as it would have no mass, thus it is like the central particle or force that allows for existence at all
The trouble with that is that *all* force mediating particles are required for life as we know it to function. You'd have no mass without the Higgs, but no anything else without the photon. No sun without the strong and weak nuclear forces...


newwiseman said:
If anything I will except the name "God Particle" for the theoretical singularity that existed before the big bang, the thing that exploded.
Actually I'd have no problem with that either. Not that I think such a particle ever existed for more than an infinitesimally small amount of time.
 

MartialArc

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chuketek said:
MartialArc said:
...so we're like the blind leading the blind here =). Maybe the OP will indulge us some more.
Agreed, string theory never really interested me that much, so I know about as much as the next technical person who's had a quick read. You sound like you probably know more about it than me...
(Interesting point, I did actually attend a series of lectures on string theory at a "summer school" although during the winter. The problem was they were in Japanese... so I lost the plot about halfway through.)

Oh, and I am the OP. So all hope of a decent answer is lost I'm afraid.
So out of curiosity, what is it like working at CERN? I've only known a few high level researcher types and most of them were kinda... snooty. FWIW I know there was a renaming contest in the hopes of stopping the usage of the term "god particle," some of them were kinda funny:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2009/jun/05/cern-lhc-god-particle-higgs-boson

"The particle formerly known as the God particle" is easily my favorite. So next time someone espouses religion to you about it tell them that its not the god particle anymore =).
 

Thumper17

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I gotta wonder why scientists need to figure out exactly how everything works. Cant we just be satisfied that it works as it does?
 

Worgen

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chuketek said:
Sjakie said:
Frankly, i would not bother with reading religous texts unless your interested in finding outdated moral standards or actually are looking for God.
Woodsey said:
"Its not important.
I think you misunderstand, I wouldn't read the bible to try and understand philosophy, morals or the natural world. I'd read it to try and understand Christians.
edit: I don't mean this offensively, "Christians are incomprehensible" or anything like that. I simply mean that there are a lot of Christians, the Christian faith as a whole has had a massive impact on world history and by definition they do believe in some aspects of the book, either literally or figuratively. This is why I say it's important.
ehh, I dont think reading it would give you much understanding of them since catholics arnt even allowed to read the bible and protestants all have their own interpretation of it, hell there is some offshoot of protestantism that thinks jesus wanted the best people to get as much money as possible
 

Navvan

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chuketek said:
I work on the ATLAS project at the LHC and probably the most famous objective for the project is to find evidence for the existence of the "Higgs Boson". It also gets called the "God Particle" a lot and I really wish people would stop. I had an experience a couple of days ago which reminded me of just how much I hate this nickname and why, so I thought I'd share.

I'm not going to go into a detailed explanation of what the Higgs Boson actually is, but suffice to say that it would prove the leading theory regarding why things have mass, which would more or less validate our current understanding of the universe up to a certain point. If we don't find it, then it's back to the drawing board for a whole heap of theories.

So anyway, the experience.
I was waiting for a bus to CERN from the airport and someone (clearly not Swiss or French) asked me how to get to an area which has one of the CERN sites. I showed him and asked whether he was heading to CERN as usually foreigners heading to these areas are CERN scientists. He wasn't, but expressed an interest in what exactly we were doing and asked me to explain what the "God Particle" was.

I'd been travelling for the best part of 16 hours and reading a book by Feynmann, so rather than just giving a version of this post's second paragraph, I rambled on for a bit about how photons mediate the Electromagnetic force and how other forces are carried out through particles called Bosons.
I explained that although ideas like inertia are very intuitive, explaining them on a fundamental level is actually very difficult and finding the Higgs would help explain how it happens.

He seemed confused and asked whether we were investigating space with this research or how people function. I took a step back and tried to explain that nearly all of biology and chemistry is essentially Electromagnetic in nature, with some changes due to things having mass and being affected by Gravity. EM is very well understood, Inertia is what we're trying to explain now and Gravity is still very much a work in progress.
I also said that the Higgs would only have existed naturally in a very short window after the big bang and would help explain how matter developed during that window. Which is one of the reasons why you hear about space a lot in discussions about the Higgs.

This is only a summary of the conversation, he asked me at some point whether spending money one this sort of research is justified and to explain how EM can account for everything including (and I swear this was the example he gave) what happens when someone gets shot. Generally he seemed pretty interested in hearing me out although I doubt I could have explained all of the finer points satisfactorily.

Finally, I was asked whether we were doing this to try and explain how the Big Bang happened and how time started, so to speak. I replied that we're just trying to understand the Big Bang as early as possible, but going past the initial point is impossible, at least for now.
He said "So, the idea isn't to disprove the idea of God or anything like that then?"
Me: "No, nothing like that at all"
Him:"So then why is it called the God Particle"
Me: "Because some journalist though it was a cool name"
Him:"Ah, right, I see....... So, I guess not many people working at CERN believe in Creation"
Me: "err ......No, I guess not"
Him:"hmmn, I do, Genesis 1-1, you should really read it some time"
Me: "maybe I will"
(I do actually intend to read the bible at some point, just because I don't think hardly any of it's true doesn't mean I don't think it's important)

At which point my tram arrived (he'd clearly had one eye on the announcement board), we shook hands and I headed off.


After thinking about it for a minute on the tram I realised that the entire conversation had been sabotaged from the beginning by the idea that the Higgs Boson would somehow disprove the notion of God or had anything to do with religion. For anyone who doesn't know anything about particle physics "God Particle" is much easier to draw an image of than "Higgs Boson" (which is why I suppose the name stuck...), the problem is that this image is completely wrong. And whilst my neighbor at the bus station had been more inquisitive than confrontational (one odd example aside), others may have a different approach to trying to get scientists to "explain themselves".

So please, can we stop calling it the "God Particle", it gives a great number of people completely the wrong idea. Please?
I'm in the same boat as many people in this thread apparently. That is I never knew it was ever called the God Particle in the first place. It is a nonsense name regardless.

theonecookie said:
the thing is when has science ever been about disproving god its about understanding the world around us it just turns out god hasent been the answer to anything yet (and i doubt it ever will be to tell the truth)
I am paraphrasing this in any relevant future conversation regarding science and religion.
 

chuketek

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MartialArc said:
"The particle formerly known as the God particle"
Where's the like button on this site?

As for working at CERN... It's interesting, keeps you on your toes.
As with any job where you're actually interested in what you're doing it's very rewarding.
On the other hand it can be extremely intimidating trying to explain your research to scientists who know vastly more about it than you do. Also having deadlines such as, you must understand this theory by this point, as well as, you must have done this by this point, can make things a little stressful.
But then again I wouldn't want to be doing anything else.
 

MartialArc

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Thumper17 said:
I gotta wonder why scientists need to figure out exactly how everything works. Cant we just be satisfied that it works as it does?
I dunno, let me try to figure that out. All we have to do is figure out a way to test satisfaction......
 

dyre

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Worgen said:
chuketek said:
Sjakie said:
Frankly, i would not bother with reading religous texts unless your interested in finding outdated moral standards or actually are looking for God.
Woodsey said:
"Its not important.
I think you misunderstand, I wouldn't read the bible to try and understand philosophy, morals or the natural world. I'd read it to try and understand Christians.
edit: I don't mean this offensively, "Christians are incomprehensible" or anything like that. I simply mean that there are a lot of Christians, the Christian faith as a whole has had a massive impact on world history and by definition they do believe in some aspects of the book, either literally or figuratively. This is why I say it's important.
ehh, I dont think reading it would give you much understanding of them since catholics arnt even allowed to read the bible and protestants all have their own interpretation of it, hell there is some offshoot of protestantism that thinks jesus wanted the best people to get as much money as possible
shows what you know about Christianity, lol. Catholics aren't allowed to read the Bible? Not since the Middle Ages, dude. And Protestantism is generally even more interested in the Bible, whereas Catholics are sometimes stuck in a lot of tradition.
 

Spaloooooka

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Um...I think you'll find I am god! I made the universe and my greatest invention is putting the idea of whipped cream into the minds of humans. Everything else is easy peasy but this one was a challenge!!

you can't find the higgs boson because you're not using big enough photons! If you used a photon expander you'd get your results and you'd find me!! :D

You can make one of these by putting two very small but fluffy kittens into the collider and made them collide!

Seriously though, why don't you try accelerating U-235 atoms? I'm sure if those babies hit they'd make for some interesting results.

Failing this, couldn't you get 2 sets of atoms going at once, and then have 2 collisions in close proximity to each other, so the remains of one collision are hit by a second. the up and down could be hit by the top and bottom and be split further. :p
 

The Cheezy One

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I've heard of God particle. However, the subject very rarely come up in conversation, and I would probably call it the H-B anyway.

A bit off topic, but needs to be said - Religion and Science are not at war. You can get scientists that believe in creationism, and Theists who believe in evolution. I myself fall into the latter category. It's just like how racism spreads in certain areas. People are brought up to believe that they should dislike certain other people, so very rarely consider an alternative. Unfortuantely, most people take the science approach and then believe they cannot consider Theism without abandoning science. This is not the case!
 

ultimateownage

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That must be a more American name for it, because in England we always call it the Higgs Boson.
 

OblivionSoul

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I have a sister who works in particle physics. This drives her up the wall as well. But hey, stupid people will be stupid. Educating them is nigh impossible.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
dyre said:
Worgen said:
chuketek said:
Sjakie said:
Frankly, i would not bother with reading religous texts unless your interested in finding outdated moral standards or actually are looking for God.
Woodsey said:
"Its not important.
I think you misunderstand, I wouldn't read the bible to try and understand philosophy, morals or the natural world. I'd read it to try and understand Christians.
edit: I don't mean this offensively, "Christians are incomprehensible" or anything like that. I simply mean that there are a lot of Christians, the Christian faith as a whole has had a massive impact on world history and by definition they do believe in some aspects of the book, either literally or figuratively. This is why I say it's important.
ehh, I dont think reading it would give you much understanding of them since catholics arnt even allowed to read the bible and protestants all have their own interpretation of it, hell there is some offshoot of protestantism that thinks jesus wanted the best people to get as much money as possible
shows what you know about Christianity, lol. Catholics aren't allowed to read the Bible? Not since the Middle Ages, dude. And Protestantism is generally even more interested in the Bible, whereas Catholics are sometimes stuck in a lot of tradition.
no, the only official source of the bible for catholics are the priests
protestants are more interested in the bible but they also interpret the crap out of it to really support anything they want
 

Varitel

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First things first, go CERN and lucky you (or more likely "extraordinarily skilled you") for getting a job there.

1. Were you talking to Bill O'Riley?

2. Though the man was mislead by the name of the Higgs boson, he would have held those opinions either way. The nickname (which I don't mind) was obviously just one additional piece of ammunition in his arsenal, and a dud at that. Interestingly though, without this notion of a "God particle", this man may never have had any interest in what was going on at CERN. This name may actually help get people otherwise uninterested in physics to do a bit of research.

3. The penultimate sentence implies that you are a bit peeved by the notion of scientists having to "explain themselves", but isn't that kind of the point? Scientists have, for practically the entire span of history, had to explain themselves to people who didn't understand, or didn't want to understand. It absolutely comes with the territory. Dr. Feynman, who was mentioned earlier, was probably one of the best in the business at explaining modern physics to the layman.