Sexism in gaming, do we really give a f**k?

[Meatspinner]

I think it's amusing that most of these sexism/feminism threads are started by people who are sick and tired of sexism/feminism discussions.

It wouldn't surprise me if most people on these forums are sick and tired of those threads. 2-ish years of daily, feminist controversy threads tend to do that.

Btw, where are the residential gender warriors?

It's awfully quite...

 

[Bug MuIdoon]

but it does affect me, so I do care.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not flaming - just genuinely interested.

How does it effect you?

Video games & comics = Make the women as sexy as possible for men, make the men as unattractive as possible for women.

For me, "equal opportunity sexy" is the one thing JRPGs are still doing right, as well as KMMOs & CMMOs.

Am I really just saying that men have to be Asian in order to be sexy? No! They just need less muscle, a clean shaven face, styled hair, & to show off a little more skin, or something skin-tight yet frilly & flamboyant. TERA Online has the right idea with it's armor.

You realise every thing you just said is based entirely on your own opinion? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe some woman like massive beards, unstlyed haired or even bald men who wear 10inch thick woolen jumpers, instead of pale vampiric goth chaps. TERA Online has the right idea *For you* Just because you're happy with it doesn't make it perfect for all, or non-sexist.

Also, your first sentence is quite offensive. Not only do you clump every man together with your sexist beliefs, you also do the exact same with women right after!

 

[Chemical Alia]

The artist of Dragon's Crown did the same style in Odin's Sphere and Muramasa where it was completely unrealistic and fantasy based. Also we had in those games with extremely large breasts and no one gave two shits. So to complain about this is to quite simply not understand the artists style and be so intellectually dishonest that a person would put their own personal ideology over the actual evidence.

We can't "give two shits" if we never heard of them. Thanks to this new game being in the spotlight, I now do and can laugh at those other games as well.

Well that makes me glad I never buy any of your fucking games. Especially with that attitude you cop towards your fellow artist.

You're saying I can't have opinions about art as an artist? Okay then. Kind of weird, since it's something like 100% of artists do. I like or dislike art as a consumer and as an artist, but that doesn't mean that I dislike the artists themselves or find them talented. Disagreements and difference in taste aren't exactly an uncommon thing in art, and it's not a bad thing 0:

 

[GonzoGamer]

Nope, I just kinda ignore it anymore cause all its turned into is white noise to me.

Yea, things like hot nuns and busty witches don't seem like the thing worth getting excited over. The hobby is always going to have a "pinup" section; anyone who has a problem with that needs to pray more to get the images out of their heads. And by making it a big deal it can make some callus if a serious situation comes up.

Personally, I would love to see all the talented women in game development band together and start their own studio. Kim Swift and Rhianna Pratchett would be a good start. I just think we would see a lot of interesting and different things come out of a studio like that.

 

[JemothSkarii]

If I did before, I don't now since I'm apparently a part of the demographic which encourages this. The amount of anger and acidity around the whole thing has made many 'gamers' (like myself) just not want to try and help anymore because all there is is blaming and preaching about the evils happening. Since I'm a young straight white male gamer I am apparently everything causing sexism in the industry.

What about Racism in the industry? Only thing I can think of was the whole RE5 thing which bubbled a little then died out and apparently some annoyance over that chick in Deus Ex: HR that gives info because she's a hobo and talks like a stereotypical uneducated black lady. Yeah protagonists are predominantly white and antagonists (at least in shooters) are generally either Middle Eastern or Russian. Not often you play as a Black or Asian person.

But no, I don't care anymore; if I see anything 'sexist' (read: over the top) in the portrayal of women, I will play it because of how stupid it looks, not because I'm oppressing and objectivising the female gender (see Scarlet Blade).

 

[Lunar Templar]

Nope, I just kinda ignore it anymore cause all its turned into is white noise to me.

Yea, things like hot nuns and busty witches don't seem like the thing worth getting excited over. The hobby is always going to have a "pinup" section; anyone who has a problem with that needs to pray more to get the images out of their heads. And by making it a big deal it can make some callus if a serious situation comes up.

Personally, I would love to see all the talented women in game development band together and start their own studio. Kim Swift and Rhianna Pratchett would be a good start. I just think we would see a lot of interesting and different things come out of a studio like that.

Not really into 'nuns', more into Nurses as for witches, yeah into those, but the Dragon Crown one isn't doing anything for me.

But stuff like DoA, Soulcalibur, and other such games where they are, basicly trying to hard to make the ladys 'hot' don't come a cross as such to me, comes across as pathetic, and really makes me question how good the game is if 'sex appeal' is what they have front and center.

I vote with my wallet and just don't by this shit, whats every one else's problem

 

[Bashfluff]

It's unfortunate, but that's the position I'm in now. and let me tell you why I think it'sewh unfortunate.

People have made a big fuss about non-issues so much that it drew attention from real issues. Why would you care if women had big breasts? Publishers are out there saying that having a female protagonist is a no-go! Why would you care if the protagonist saves a princess--because that's somehow sexist--when women cannot be in the front cover of game cases because they're women.

There are real issues out there that we should be talking about. And I'm honestly having a hard time caring because of the energy wasted by these...feminazi pinheads making mountains out of molehills constantly. It dries up my sympathy wells. I hope there will still be people in the gaming community willing to address these with passion and with determination.

I just can't give a f**k anymore.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Yes, I do in fact give a fuck. Because I know that sexism in gaming is not only severely hampering the enjoyment of half the gaming population and a good number of gaming producers (both actual and potential), it's also a microcosm of a problem endemic in the greater cultures us gamers live with, it's a free pass to be lazy when writing and drawing, and as a man, it also bugs the living shit out of me to read or watch or play something that implicitly (or perhaps explicitly) stereotypes and derides people and expects me to draw unironic enjoyment from it. Made worse when I realize that some people do draw unironic enjoyment, because however much those people insist that it "doesn't affect me," that's complete nonsense, because they still perpetuate that attitude in society as a whole.

Different but related, I also give a fuck when people describe things as "fucking faggy." It's good having a reminder that a lot of these issues are interrelated, and fixing one will likely make progress towards fixing the others.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

I do think people tend to jump up and down on the way women are depecited in GAMES, but it's a small facet of society that is doing this to women. Freaking girl magazines and music for one and television for another, games aren't doing women any favors, but they're getting a Hell of a lot more progressuve than quite a few other facets of society.

Frankly its about time that we stopped discussing and started doing.You want to see better female role models in games, take some initiative and make those damn games. Learn how to write for games and get into the industry as a writer, come up with a great gameplay mechanic and form a female driven story around it.

I'm frankly tired of people bitching and moaning and not doing anything about it.

 

[Chemical Alia]

The artist of Dragon's Crown did the same style in Odin's Sphere and Muramasa where it was completely unrealistic and fantasy based. Also we had in those games with extremely large breasts and no one gave two shits. So to complain about this is to quite simply not understand the artists style and be so intellectually dishonest that a person would put their own personal ideology over the actual evidence.

We can't "give two shits" if we never heard of them. Thanks to this new game being in the spotlight, I now do and can laugh at those other games as well.

Well that makes me glad I never buy any of your fucking games. Especially with that attitude you cop towards your fellow artist.

You're saying I can't have opinions about art as an artist? Okay then. Kind of weird.

Oh I'm sorry did I say what you are assuming right now? No? Then don't make any assumptions, kinda just makes you look like an ass.

I'm saying that you can gripe all you want. I do it to everything, especially the stuff I enjoy. But there is a difference of actually first making the fist basic distinction between what is meant to be realistic and what is meant to be fantasy. To which I would find it quite odd from one of the artists involved in a company that created Borderlands that can't make that basic distinction. I mean I don't take that game to be realistic at all, yet you can't do the same to another game.

If there is actual sexism to care about it certainly is NOT in the content of the video games but the actual people and practices that are actual acts of discrimination based on gender. Cause last I checked you and I are real people. Chun-li and Guile are not. I give a shit if women lose the right to have an abortion, I give a shit if women or men have a smaller base salary than the other(if ya wanna risk not getting hired for a higher salary, hey go for it, just better have a damn good case on your side why you are worth higher than that starting base salary). I care about actual equality and not this false equality where in the end it is people who worked hard and aspired for years trying to actually do what they wanted to do growing up and going through the same rigor you do at your job making sure that when you pitch the game to be published that you make a strong enough case that the game is a good investment and it will be profitable to the publisher.

If ya don't like it, that is fine. But when we get the assholes of the world starting to say that a game should not exist or just can't understand that given the portfolio of the artist that he has always created surreal artwork then it isn't the failure of the artist but simply a difference of opinion by the viewer. It is A LOT easier to be destructive than to create.

Also to note both odin's sphere and Muramasa were HIGHLY praised games not just based on their game mechanics but also because of their artistic style created by the same artist. Kinda refreshing considering how everyone likes to gripe about the brown and grey shooters of the world. And no I'm not referring to borderlands, that is just as fantastical and unrealistic as Dragon's Crown.

Sorry dude, I just don't like the style. I'm not saying "holy shit, they have to change it", I'm saying "lol, that sure looks dumb to me and I believe they could have made better design choices". Most artists can accept that there will be people who do and don't like their style for personal reasons (especially when what they do is provocative), and are mature enough to be okay with that. It sounds by your extremely long sentences that you have a lot of angry baggage about this stuff, so I'm going to back out of a gender thread on the Escapist once again.

 

[Jenvas1306]

but it does affect me, so I do care.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not flaming - just genuinely interested.

How does it effect you?

just take tera as an example, its a mmorpg and there its not unimportant for me to have a connection to my character. Now thats difficult if even the aman females dont look half as awesome as the males cause they need to be overy sexy and pretty. I play mmorpgs to be a warrior or what ever, not a playboy bunny or a model.
I played bioshock infinite recently, and pulling a lever elizabeth cant pull cause I am strong man is weird to me cause I am also a girl and sure not much stronger than eli is, just as an example of immersion problems with the male, 30ish, brown haired protargonst that is being recycled so much.
I guess it has also to do with women being rated by their looks more. I am not a model but not ugly either, but I have a lot of other things to offer aswell, and a character in a game that is soley there to show off her T&A and not being relevant or actually a chracter with a personality, simply displays values that I could never agree on: that looks are more important than anything else.
It is also difficult to find a character you can relate to if you have to choose between not being a character at all and lacking personality or simply being of the wrong gender.

I think that Anita isnt doing anything wrong. her presentation is a bit lame but she shows from what gaming should get away. Why is Peach being captured that often? If that plot part doesnt matter, you could throw it out for something else equally shallow but not sexist. Why does a dev-team have a hard time finding a publisher for a game with a female protargonist who is female in more regards that just her looks?
Why is it alright that certain games offer a lot of different types of male characters to play while the female ones allways have sexy as their first attribute?

Why would I have to prove how much I am into games just cause I dont have a penis?
I think that display of women, even if those are imaginary still affects how people see real women, and thats why I care about how women are shown in movies, books and games.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I can count on one hand the number of game studios I'd ever want to work at and do any sort of character art. I love what I do, but it kind of does.

Just out of curiosity, which studios would those happen to be? (I know you can't really answer, due to your position, but it's still interesting. I'd like to venture a guess that Naughty Dog and Valve are on that list, as well as Gearbox. Warm or cold?)

And, I apologize if this sounds like assumption on my part, but your language in the post I quoted previously seemed to indicate a pretty hardline, "If I don't like it, it needs to disappear," sort of approach to the issue.

Sorry dude, I just don't like the style. I'm not saying "holy shit, they have to change it", I'm saying "lol, that sure looks dumb to me and I believe they could have made better design choices". Most artists can accept that there will be people who do and don't like their style for personal reasons (especially when what they do is provocative), and are mature enough to be okay with that. It sounds by your extremely long sentences that you have a lot of angry baggage about this stuff, so I'm going to back out of a gender thread on the Escapist once again.

All right, this is a much more reasonable argument. After all, there's no arguing taste.

 

[llubtoille]

I like my characters pretty, and as it's no more effort to make them pretty than ugly, why not.

 

[Shadowstar38]

Developers and artists are going to create the game they want to make with the characters they want to use. No amount of bitching is going to make them care. And it shouldn't.

The only issue I have is when games that want to have a female lead like Remember Me can't get greenlit only because the lead is female. That to me is the point where sexism is a problem.

 

[nexus]

I'm really done listening to the "false outrage". I don't remember the last game I played where I felt like I was trying to be "titilated" as a male. Most games have shattered the "sexism" stereotypes and tropes, and only few remain.

There are issues, and there are non-issues. I will grant there are still some issues regarding "sexism" in the actual gaming industry, but those are not the issues raged about.

Seriously, there are so many "gender neutral" games out today it's not even funny. If you continue to complain about 'sexism' in games on the internet, all the time, you're a psychopath and I will not listen to you. It reminds me of the recent "incident" at UC Irvine: where 3 Asians made a "music video" with Jay-Z in it. One of the kids went "blackface" as Jay-Z, and people at the school went totally ape shit. [http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/UC-Irvine-Fraternity-Lambda-Theta-Delta-Blackface-Video-204805451.html] To the point that they are being spit on, on school grounds.


Political correctness, and granting people their "false outrage" has literally brainwashed people.

I'm not paying attention to any "outrage" from now on, unless it's an actual crime.