Sexsim: have the tables actually turned?

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Terminal Blue

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Daddy Go Bot said:
Feminism has proven to be nothing but poison for western civilization.

I highly recommend that you watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkVWz0uXiEA
Wow.. The people who made that must totally know what they are talking about. Why else would they post it on Youtube, the place where the almighty Gods descend to earth to impart their immortal wisdom in the form of 5 minute videos.

At a glance..

"Before feminism, women could choose whether to work or not"

Yes, and before Obama became president, men could choose whether to wear clothes or not.

Neither of the above statements in factually untrue, yet neither carries any useful information.

Firstly, correlation (and bear in mind that no correlation actually exists in this case, statistically or experientially) does not mean causation.

Secondly, the statement is misleading to the point of negligence. The fact that something might be technically possible does not make it realistically possible for the majority of people.

...

Okay dude, I actually give up now. This shit is sick, I hope you're fucking trolling me.
 

2xDouble

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Daddy Go Bot said:
Really, 2xDouble...Really?

Would it make you happy if I said there will always be an exception to the rule? That much is obvious, but generally, men are indeed the ones who propel the world forward.
Which is exactly my point, and the flaw in your arguments. You say Men propel the world forward, which means Women do not. Therefore men have significant advantage over women. If men have significant advantage over women, women cannot have advantage over men. If women cannot have advantage over men, then saying they do is a lie.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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2xDouble said:
Men are the creators of the world. Women do not create the world, they adapt to it. They are good at adapting, so why don't they create the world? they must lack the ability.
I don't even...

You do know that up until about 30 years ago women weren't allowed to even think about doing anything intellectual or science based right.

The exceptional women that actual managed to fight through male oppression and get themselves an education should be given massive props tbh.

For example Ada Lovelace...

''Ada Lovelace wrote a scientific paper in 1843 that anticipated the development of computer software, artificial intelligence and computer music. Daughter of the poet Lord Byron, Lady Ada Lovelace was known as the "enchantress of numbers" who collaborated with Charles Babbage, the inventor of the first mechanical thinking/calculating machine. In her honor the U.S. Department of Defense named its computer language "Ada" in 1980.''

And before you said 'she just collaborated' this was 1843 do you think a woman would have gotten the backing that Babbage did?

Another quote about her
'At the time most women received a home education that was inferior to that of a man's. However, Ada's mother was able to provide her daughter with superior education that included science and math.'

You are debasing her achievements on the very thing she helped invent. Shame on you.

I suppose you think we should just ignore the complete oppression of the female sex by religion and society and just assume that men are just more intelligent and capable...
 

Daddy Go Bot

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evilthecat said:
Daddy Go Bot said:
Feminism has proven to be nothing but poison for western civilization.

I highly recommend that you watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkVWz0uXiEA
Wow.. The people who made that must totally know what they are talking about. Why else would they post it on Youtube, the place where the almighty Gods descend to earth to impart their immortal wisdom in the form of 5 minute videos.

At a glance..

"Before feminism, women could choose whether to work or not"

Yes, and before Obama became president, men could choose whether to wear clothes or not.

Neither of the above statements in factually untrue, yet neither carries any useful information.

Firstly, correlation (and bear in mind that no correlation actually exists in this case, statistically or experientially) does not mean causation.

Secondly, the statement is misleading to the point of negligence. The fact that something might be technically possible does not make it realistically possible for the majority of people.

...

Okay dude, I actually give up now. This shit is sick, I hope you're fucking trolling me.
What - you decided to watch for a minute and decided it was not worth your time? Of course you could fault it for being a youtube video, but that'd be silly. There is indeed a lot of dumb stuff on youtube, it still however a great place if you wanna reach a massive audience.
 

Tsunimo

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Yeah I think so, people will hire women over men to try and show that they don't discriminate, there are more scholarships for women*, and if a man beats a women it's a tragedy, but when a woman abuses a man, it's laughed at, or people say he somehow deserved it.(can't recall the details, but someone posted a video here once of some TV bitches laughing about a women that cut off a mans penis or something.)

*[sub]There are also more for being anything other than white, but that's a whole new bag of snakes.[/sub]
 

Daddy Go Bot

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xXxJessicaxXx said:
1981 was indeed the height of female oppression. Like back in the 1970's where women and only women were sent to fight and die in the Vietnam war. A horrible example of female oppression under patriarchy.
 
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oppp7 said:
Breast cancer? And I doubt hernias are worse than pregnancy.
The second... I'd ask for sources but I didn't use any either (aside from Wikipedia). So I guess that's a draw?
Again, we're both talking out our asses.
I meant that women are always shown as highly sexualized in pretty much everything. You could say the same for men, but I don't think women are as ok about all their role models shown with huge boobs as men are with theirs with muscles (also, I've heard that overmuscled guys aren't that attractive to women, and that girls are attracted to asses anyways).
Special note on Don Imus: Agree that that was stupid. I think the thing was that he had said worse and "nappy headed hoes" was the straw that broke the camels back. Also, that may have been about racism as much as sexism.
[li]Biology can't be sexist and to bring that into an argument about equality is just plain idiotic.[/li]
[li]I've never seen a source to say that women earn less than men, even if I did then I'd be very skeptical of it too. There is a very good chance that the stats could be argued away with people work different hours, people work different jobs and people work to a different standard. If more men work to a better standard and a therefore paid more then it'll show up in the stats and appear as sexist.[/li]
[li]Women have been and always will be sexualized, it's in our nature to do that. Women do it all the time too and it is in no way wrong, you're allowed to look at each other and feel horny without feeling guilty for it. It isn't a sexism issue at all.[/li]

OT: In some ways. I couldn't list them right now, but men and women are both judged by gender so I guess you could say we are, in a way, equal.
 

b3nn3tt

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This is not a competition! I don't know why we get so many threads here that incite people to argue about 'who has it worse' out of men and women. Both sides have it bad, why can't people just accept that, and stop worrying about trying to argue that their respective sexes are worse off?

Yes, there are many areas where men are at a disadvantage compared to women, but guess what, women are still at a disadvantage in other areas. Nobody is 'winning' here, and nobody will until everyone starts fighting for genuine equality, instead of trying to make sure their own sex isn't missing out on something.
 

tyriless

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Either DGB is trolling or he is a very vocal minority. Either way, there is no changing his mind, and anyone dumb enough to buy what he is selling deserves the product they get.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Daddy Go Bot said:
xXxJessicaxXx said:
1981 was indeed the height of female oppression. Like back in the 1970's where women and only women were sent to fight and die in the Vietnam war. A horrible example of female oppression under patriarchy.
No offence but that hasn't got anything to do with what I said.

I was arguing the point that you can't say women inventors are rare becuase they simply weren't allowed to participate by society.

Also men were sent to Vietnam by other men not by women so I really don't get your point...

Even if women wanted to go and fight on the front lines they weren't allowed too. So that just reinforces my point about female oppression tbh.
 

Daddy Go Bot

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xXxJessicaxXx said:
Daddy Go Bot said:
xXxJessicaxXx said:
1981 was indeed the height of female oppression. Like back in the 1970's where women and only women were sent to fight and die in the Vietnam war. A horrible example of female oppression under patriarchy.
No offence but that hasn't got anything to do with what I said.

I was arguing the point that you can't say women inventors are rare becuase they simply weren't allowed to participate by society.

If you want an argument that's relevant to what you said...at least men are allowed to join the front lines if they want to. Women are not. Big shock there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Curie

Oh man, just look at how oppressed this female Nobel Prize winner was.

tyriless said:
Either DGB is trolling or he is a very vocal minority. Either way, there is no changing his mind, and anyone dumb enough to buy what he is selling deserves the product they get.
Vocal minority? I guess so. I'm just saying what needs to be said... Some people just refuse to listen to the truth.
 

Johann610

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Women don't CHOOSE engineering that I do, so they don't compete with me, directly. And their abilities AS engineers are about the same spectrum as the men with which I work. I don't think corporation / office rules are structured any differently either. In real life? I'd say be an adult, and the war becomes much less important. I mean: life's not fair, and it has nothing to do with your Y chromosome, so stop blaming the double-Xes and deal with it.
 

Terminal Blue

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Daddy Go Bot said:
What - you decided to watch for a minute and decided it was not worth your time? Of course you fault it for being a youtube video, but that'd be silly. There is indeed a lot of dumb stuff on youtube, it still however a great place if you wanna reach a massive audience.
No, I watched the whole thing, against my better judgement. I just gave up commenting when I felt the bile rise into my mouth.

To summarize:

If you believe all this, if you believe that access to the labour market is exploitative, if you believe that the role segregated nuclear family affords 'protection' from the big, bad world, then why aren't you clamouring to take on the female sex role yourself? Why don't you (and every man) want to spend your life cooking and cleaning and raising children instead of being exploited and driven to early mortality and suicide by the labour market?

Because the self evident answer is, like the prick on the video, you believe that the fundamental difference between men and women is that men are never vulnerable (meaning that by extension those who are are not real men and are open to punishment and social discipline). This is the desire for authority, the desire to be seen as stronger than others, as authoritive and rational and able to make the tough decisions.

But it's okay, because we all know that the male authority is all based on this glorious sense of noblesse oblige. Through everything, daddy reaches down with his firm but gentle hand and protects his little girl, guides her through life and keeps her from evil and exploitation out of the goodness and kindness of his heart. There's nothing he gets from this arrangement, of course, perish the thought that almighty daddy would act on self interest. He's certainly not doing this because of the social rewards, he does it because because being confined to a limited role based on their supposedly 'natural' capabilities makes women happy.

Sure it does.
 

Illyasviel

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This is a pretty loaded question. I believe we are currently at a break even point, and given current trends, women may have a slight advantage in the future. Not super likely, but probable.

There are a few reasons for this. I honestly don't want to cite anything because it'll take forever so you can take my word for it or go look it up yourself. Also, I want to hit as many points as quickly as possible without producing a wall of text nobody will read.

Currently, the wage gap no longer exists in the United States. Evidence to the contrary is usually outdated or does not take into account all factors. But men, on average, do earn more. Let me explain. I, nor have any of my friends, ever worked anywhere where men were offered more to do the SAME job. Why? Because discrimination is bad and most employers need a new lawsuit like they need a new butthole. Now, let's get to the nitty gritty.

First, and I have no supporting evidence for this as I believe the sources to be biased, it is reasonable to say women tend to deviate toward cushier jobs. Cushier jobs pay less. As I said, I honestly can't prove this either way, but next time you walk into an university engineering class, pay attention to the percentage of males to females. Why this is? Maybe sexism. More later.

Second, women bear children. Men don't. When a working woman takes paternity leave or reduces her hours to care for her newborn child, it effectively puts her career on hold. It is difficult to dedicate the same time and energy to work when YOUR child is at home needing to be taken care of. At this point, men, who stay working, begin to out pace their counterparts. Again, you could argue that women staying home taking care of children all the time is an indicator of sexism, but in the end, men overwhelmingly make career oriented decisions while women do not. You could also say it sexism for an employer to promote a male employee who has three years experience over a initially similar female employee who has two and a half years experience after leave. Is it? Maybe. But it is definitely discrimination to artificially credit a female employee an additional six months because she took leave.

Third, a lot of people immediately point at the fact that the upper levels of society still predominately consist of men. Men make up the majority of the highest paying jobs, political positions, etc., sure. But when did the whole feminist revolution begin? Around the 1970s. And I don't even think a primary motive of first wave feminism was to get women into the upper crust. They just wanted equality. I think it was second wave feminism that made job place equality a major goal. In any case, fourty years is not a lot of time. See, the upper crust before the 1970s contained a lot of men and those guys aren't going to just roll over and die to appease some random female or statistic. And getting into the upper crust? Its not easy regardless of gender. So again, these things take tons of time and energy. Very few people can do it. Its the upper crust for a reason. Don't expect to miraculously change a system hundreds of years in the making overnight.

That said, I believe we will see many more women making it into that upper crust in the next two decades ( which is a much more appropriate time scale than this ridiculous fourty, more like thirty year turnaround current feminists seem to expect ). Why? Because education. I believe nearly 60% of graduating undergraduates are now women. I don't know the exact split, but look it up anywhere. Right now, more women graduate than men. And while it is true that men continue to dominate traditional powerhouses like engineering, if you've ever taken a look into other hard sciences like biology you'll see tons of girls right next to the boys. As for why men continue to dominate traditional educational powerhouses? Nobody really knows. It could be deeply ingrained sexism. But evidence points to the contrary. Because many schools have been doing all they can to get girls more interested in the maths and sciences. The current day elementary school programs in fact favour girls over boys, yet the percentage of women who enter engineering has only shown marginal yearly improvement.

When one has education and drive, well, getting into that upper crust should be easier.

Next, the Internet and misogyny thereon. Look, people say whatever they want over the Internet and are generally assholes. The Internet is not representative of real life. If you're a girl and somebody hurts your feelings over the Internet, go tell your coworker. He'll probably tell you those guys on the Internet are douches. Now don't go complain to him every time this happens because he'll probably think you're a whiny pissant and will eventually tell you to just stop using the Internet. Real life and the Internet. Different things. Oh, but all that anti-women stuff on the Internet will desensitize people to be anti-women. Well, I played tons of Borderlands and Battlefield and Call of Duty and Uncharted and I even own a real gun and I haven't shot anybody yet. Even that time I was really, really mad. Didn't even cross my mind. Btw, politically, I can be classified as a libertarian or centralist. A non-right winger owning a gun. Weird, right?

Now, let's talk about a few things nobody wants to talk about. Women in the military. In almost no first world armies do women serve as front line combatants. Even units that allow women to the front lines ( like the United States Army Green Beret ) have them in secondary and support roles ( liasons ). What does this boil down to? Well, a shit ton more men die, from non-natural causes, than women. And that's just not fair. If we want equality, for every man who dies in combat, a woman should die too, right? Even outside of the military, men are much likely to be killed due to violence or to commit suicide. Because life is hard on men. Also, because if civilization were reduced to two men, humanity would be screwed.

Next, a few things. Feminism has become extreme. No, neo-feminists or whoever do not speak for all feminists. They don't really speak for anybody except their crazy selves. But the problem is that they exist and they are crazy with their man hating and cries to burn down the patriarchy and real feminists aren't doing enough to distance themselves from that crazy fringe. As a result, they are allowing neo-feminists to co-opt the actual feminism movement, which is now in its third wave.

Which brings us to the next problem. Third wave feminism has no real goal. Its just this kind of dumb, pointless mess. The goals, like taking back the word ***** ( like how black people took back the n-word I guess ), are extremely minor when compared to the goals of first and second wave feminism. And that's when people can agree on a common goal at all. This kind of vague attitude has created a lot of couch feminists who proudly proclaim themselves feminists but don't really understand actual feminism ( and how important the first and second waves are ) and asides from being annoyances to everyone else, don't do anything to promote actual feminist goals. This creates a space for extremists to co-opt the movement which distorts feminism and leads to nearly as radical male rights movements. Its ridiculous and I think society is just tired and burnt out on all the stupid crap. Strangely, saying your are anti-feminism is still seen as declaring yourself a Nazi or something.

Wow, the last two paragraphs got side tracked. A bit of a rant. Also, the thoughts are kinda disjointed and I skipped a lot of inbetween bits for brevity.

TL;DR: Blah, blah, blah, no, the tables have not turned. Men still enjoy a handful of advantages but so do women. What's more, we probably will not have 100% equality in a long time. And that's okay. Because men and women aren't the same. No matter who tells you what, men and women aren't the same. Because women can have babies.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Daddy Go Bot said:
Marie Curie
Again you might want to look into the history of the person before you make such sweeping statements.

Marie Curie was the daughter of a man who was already in a learned position. She was priveleged and managed to gain a decent education because of her position in society. As you previously argued she is an exception but not because she is an intelligent women but becuase she is an educated one. It was very rare at that time for women to receive any sort of education and if they did, and they tried to use it, they were often ridiculed.

The Bronte sisters originally released their works under a male sudonym for example. If they had not they wouldn't have sold any books.

By using Marie Curie as your example you are merely proving my point.

Now get off your PC before Ada comes and haunts your ass.
 

Rufei

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Judging from posts on this fifth page here, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that there hasn't been much constructive argumentation here. I guess I'll pitch in my own opinion here:

The tables haven't turned, just that amongst different subsets of the population, the inequality works in opposite ways. Much of this thread asks if "women" as a set now exceed "men" - this is just silly, since it is practically impossible to assess the state of so many human beings across our country, let alone the world. What I can say is that progress is being made, and if it were to continue, it must move slowly, piloting with certain subsets of the population, and gradually readjusting when stuff doesn't work.

Does the movement need a bit of pruning? Yes. Is it detrimental to men? In some cases, yes. But is it constructive? Absolutely.

I would not forego the current trend. Can it go faster? Maybe. But as with our economic system, our culture ebbs and flows. Trying to rush the process only makes the waves bigger and the damage more severe.

As for examples of women having it better than men? Yeah, that's definitely the case in admissions policies in Engineering schools. Is this a bad thing? Yeah, probably. The question isn't whether or not inequality is a bad thing (generally we agree it's a bad thing), but rather if we should revert our progress or make amends to imbalances. And remember, for every preferential policy for women in Engineering, you have the same in Art or (especially) Women and Gender Studies (typically female-dominated areas) for men.

And yes, it is a moot point to try and compare admissions policies in academia to, say, the workforce. They're completely different. Saying the imbalance of one "equals" the other is just begging the question: On what criteria? How is it quantified?

And again, that's just a silly question to answer.
 

Daddy Go Bot

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evilthecat said:
Daddy Go Bot said:
What - you decided to watch for a minute and decided it was not worth your time? Of course you fault it for being a youtube video, but that'd be silly. There is indeed a lot of dumb stuff on youtube, it still however a great place if you wanna reach a massive audience.
No, I watched the whole thing, against my better judgement. I just gave up commenting when I felt the bile rise into my mouth.

To summarize:

If you believe all this, if you believe that access to the labour market is exploitative, if you believe that the role segregated nuclear family affords 'protection' from the big, bad world, then why aren't you clamouring to take on the female sex role yourself? Why don't you (and every man) want to spend your life cooking and cleaning and raising children instead of being exploited and driven to early mortality and suicide by the labour market?

Because the self evident answer is, like the prick on the video, you believe that the fundamental difference between men and women is that men are never vulnerable (meaning that by extension those who are are not real men and are open to punishment and social discipline). This is the desire for authority, the desire to be seen as stronger than others, as authoritive and rational and able to make the tough decisions.

But it's okay, because we all know that the male authority is all based on this glorious sense of noblesse oblige. Through everything, daddy reaches down with his firm but gentle hand and protects his little girl, guides her through life and keeps her from evil and exploitation out of the goodness and kindness of his heart. There's nothing he gets from this arrangement, of course, perish the thought that almighty daddy would act on self interest. He's certainly not doing this because of the social rewards, he does it because because being confined to a limited role based on their supposedly 'natural' capabilities makes women happy.

Sure it does.
Do not tell me you're one of those nutters who believe that gender is some kind of social construct?

By the way, did you watch all 6 parts?

xXxJessicaxXx said:
Daddy Go Bot said:
Marie Curie
Again you might want to look into the history of the person before you make such sweeping statements.

Marie Curie was the daughter of a man who was already in a learned position. She was priveleged and managed to gain a decent education because of her position in society. As you previously argued she is an exception but not because she is an intelligent women but becuase she is an educated one. It was very rare at that time for women to receive any sort of education and if they did, and they tried to use it, they were often ridiculed.

The Bronte sisters originally released their works under a male sudonym for example. If they had not they wouldn't have sold any books.

By using Marie Curie as your example you are merely proving my point.

Now get off your PC before Ada comes and haunts your ass.
You actually kind of prove one of my points as well. Things were never about sex, they were about class. A thing feminists fail to recognize.

And does your claim about the Bronte sister have any base? Stating that the mere fact that they were female would have guaranteed them no book sales proves nothing. And IF it did, how come exactly?

Another thing to ponder: The greatest inventors in human history (All men) had little to no formal education, so that's no excuse. And to prove my point even further, just look at society today. Women still haven't done much with their equal status in our society.
 

Ledan

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thaluikhain said:
No. Women aren't as oppressed as they used to be, but that hardly means that men are being oppressed by women, it's not an either/or situation. Feminism is about equality, not dominance.

However, people do not give up privilege lightly. If you believe that men should dominate women, that's it's just the way things are/should be, that it's to your personal benefit, than changing the status quo in favour of equality is going to seem frightening and dangerous.

Rights movements do not "win" when one groupcollectively says to themself "Oh, yeah, we've been a bit of a dick, we should stop doing that and be nice to people", they "win" when one group is forced kicking and screaming to treat others as equals.

And...I'd challenge anyone to honestly say that, after growing up in this society, that there's no part of them that's never thought that men are better than women, that homosexuals are unnatural, that PoC are subhuman, whatever. Everyone has been influenced by our culture to favour inequality, the trick is to recognise this and work against it.
Challenge accepted, I haven't. Don't know what culture you have grown up with.
 

Continuity

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Trivea said:
I wouldn't say that the tables have turned; even though it's more politically correct to be a misandrist, it seems that misogyny is still pretty rampant. Personally I think they're both terribly neanderthal views. I'm not going to get all up-in-arms if, for example, a man opens a door for me (I live in Texas, it happens) and start accusing him of assuming I'm too weak to open a door. Though... I think this view is really just women shooting themselves in the foot.
Opening a door is common courtesy, it has nothing to do with sexism, imo women who think this come off as paranoid/obsessive.

OT: it varies greatly, but there are certainly a lot more situations these days where women have a clear advantage over men, that never really used to to be the case. Plus there are even officially sanctioned instances of so called "positive" discrimination which imo is simply wrong, merit should be the only measure, a person should not be more or less likely to get a job purely because of their sex be they man or woman (with some exceptions, e.g. a woman would have a tough time trying to be a sperm donor).
I know the counter argument is that in some areas there are less women than there "should" be and the quickest way to redress the balance is via positive discrimination... but really, are we in that much of a hurry to achieve equality that we want to get there by using inequality as a tool?

Which leads to the other issue which feminism seems to be wilfully blind to: Men and women are actually different! its perfectly possible that all things being equal men and women may still decide to do different things, leaving disproportionate numbers of men in engineering and women in childcare (as an example) and what do we really achieve by forcing an unnatural "balance"?
 

Rufei

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Illyasviel said:
Ohgodohgod why are you going into the theory of education? This is dangerous territory in which I only have light empirical data on (and not actual analysis).

When you refer to why engineering is male dominated, we theorize that a lot of it may come from how people acquire systems (and how motivation works). Most of math and science is based off of exploring the rules of a system and learning how they can function so that implications can be made and predictions can be derived. Now, it is key to understand that once a human has reached that desire to perform under social pressure, that human begins to prefer systems that engage their current skill set. In otherwords, if you want to learn advanced math, it is crucial that you learn basic math before people look at you funny and assume you're just stupid.

We all can probably relate to this experience in the form of video games. Generally speaking, people don't like playing competitive multiplayer games that they're bad at - well, unless if it's because they're playing so that they can be around their friends. Regardless, if a system is intimidating and I am pressured to perform better, I am discouraged by the fact that I am terrible at the system. This generally leads to the abandoning of a system.

Why go through all of this? Because it is crucial to understand that math and science-related activities are not targeted towards girls, especially at a young age. This has been changing in recent years, but by no means is it anywhere near common practice to engage both genders in math and science in their elementary years and prior. (At least, in the US.) This is why we are generally deficient in female engineers.

Of course, it's just a theory. It doesn't encompass other societies, it doesn't deal with people who push themselves to learn systems they're bad at (another part of motivation), and it certainly doesn't explain how social pressures other than simple peer pressure can affect individuals.

Either way, it might be helpful to throw it out there.