Sexual harassment and rape allegations rapidly being fired off against various streamers

Kae

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You know what all those people have in common? They're all rich. They have money to hire lawyers and PR firms to help them through that. In addition they're somewhat protected against the "mob" because they don't rely on "the mob" to earn their living.

Indie developers and streamers don't have any of that, which makes them very susceptible to being #Canceled. They rely on their fanbase and the social media ocean to earn their living. If that tide ever turns against them, they're sunk.
You do know that a lot of the people on that list, if not most have more resources than the average person, right?
This isn't accusing Joe Schmoe the garbage man that works for minimum wage, all these people can afford lawyers and PR, and even if they can't afford PR they have fan-bases that will do free PR for them, so in actuality while it's not the same level of power that someone like Woody Allen, Roman Polansky & Kevin Spacey would have, they do have far more resources than the average person and are therefore more likely to win the cases against these allegations, even if some of them turn out to be true.

So you know let's not pretend these are normal everyday people.

Precisely. Though even for them even if those rich people manage to be found innocent and their accuser outright admits it's all B.S. that person is going to spend the rest of their lives having to deal with anyone who has ever so much as heard about it treating them like they are the scum of the earth and denying them opportunities they would have had otherwise, even if these people aren't consciously aware of it. Those that don't have money but have accusations against them turned into a media circus end up far far worse off because most of them lose everything in the process of having to fight the accusations.

The thing is these are accusations, NOT convictions and people seem not to or more likely willingly ignore the fact that the former is NOT the latter. The problem is people fail to recognize that until a court of law has been provided with actual evidence and the accused convicted accusations mean precisely jack whether it's 1 or 10,000. Regardless, there is no reason whatsoever that these accusations should be public knowledge. That just makes things bad even for the innocent, gives motivation for people to accuse each other for the fame it gives, and creates bias in the jury and court in general. It doesn't do a thing to ensure justice is carried out.

A woman who has been harmed by a man should speak out against them and be heard... to and by the police and the courts only and only if they possess actual proof. Innocent men should have the right to be able to live their lives and NOT have to worry about having their lives ruined by any random woman who decides for one reason or another to decide to accuse them. If a man actually did do something fine, the courts will handle it, but lie or truth accusations should mean nothing until proven in a court of law and nothing else.


Irrelevant. It doesn't matter who comes out on top historically, what matters is the truth. If the man harmed a woman and the latter can prove it in the court of law he goes to jail, is sued for everything he has, or whatever measures the court decides is best. If a woman accuses a man of harming her and he didn't, it should be disproved and then resolved through a defamation lawsuit. In either case the public like you or me shouldn't hear about it until it is over if ever, it is not any of our business and thus we shouldn't be involved. Saying "historically X" and acting upon it true or not is the basis for some of the most significant evils to have ever occurred on this planet.


I'd rather be objective and defend neither until actual proof is provided and the liar is convicted as a liar or the rapist is convicted as a rapist. Until then I will do what a sensible person would do and assume that the accused and the accuser are both innocent until proven guilty, no matter how many accusations are thrown. I would do that for anyone and I would expect anyone to do that for me if I ever was accused of anything.
It's not like I instantly believe every accusation but you have to keep in mind that the system isn't really helpful to victims at all, and puts all the burden of proof on them rather than the accuser, the truth of the matter is that I as someone who has been sexually abused in the past, had no way at all I could prove it actually happened, so I had to swallow all my frustrations, depression and humiliation, like what?
I'm supposed to have to decide between accusing someone, fighting a battle I can't win and afterwards being branded a liar?

The truth of the matter is that it's very hard to even accuse someone, not only does it require you to admit something that's horrible and humiliating and makes you feel like a complete idiot because you somehow feel you let it happen, not to mention that after you confess if people believe you still will have to pay the price of having everyone pity you for the rest of your life, so most people just don't bother, because people will make the same tired arguments they've always made "Oh she's probably lying", "She's just exaggerating", "He couldn't possibly do that" and all that bullshit, the truth of the matter is that these assholes are likely to win the court cases even if they are truly guilty, it's the rape convictions have always been and you know everyone waiting for an "objective" judgement will have peace of mind, except not really because they'll accuse the woman of being a lying thot, and now even if she was innocent and a genuine victim she will have to live with that for the rest of her life.

It's all bullshit a lack of conviction doesn't mean objective truth, so in reality someone's life will be ruined and we'll never know if it was the person that deserved it.

So you know you won't get the objective truth, ever.
 

NotDavidHayter

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Well, buckle up boys and girls, looks like we're talking about this now. *sigh*

Among the people being accused is Angry Joe even. Surprised no one posted about this already.
Angry Joe didn't even do anything besides try and hook up with a girl. If every single thing she says happened did in fact happen then he is only guilty of being a bit of a dick. There is obviously another side to this story and he says she is lying about a lot of it. Is it possible that a guy said some things to a girl while drunk that aren't totally cool? Yeah it is. Who hasn't been there? As guys most of us have done something we aren't proud of, search back through your past and I'm sure we have all said something that in hindsight isn't cool to a girl. She went with him around for an entire day, he was flirting with her and she never said she had a boyfriend or told him to cut it out. Are men not allowed to come on to women these days? Again, he even denies the problematic parts of the story so maybe she is just lying about a lot of it. With a story like this I'm going to file it under Joe flirting with a girl he hoped to hook up with which is totally fine to do and her being not interested but also never willing to leave the public places they hung out because he's an influential personality in the industry. Labeling Joe as some kind of predator is super stupid.
 

Trunkage

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I don't doubt you, but do you have any examples of this?
Boycotts on Solo and Rogue One. Boycotts on Marvel movie. Marvel Comics. New Balance. Nike. Netflix

There's currently a campaign on those company who dropped Tucker Carlson like T mobile and Papa Johns. Ben and Jerrys for supporting BLM. Lyft supports ACLU.

You definitely need to keep your bucks away from these terrible companies

Edit: Also Sam Seder, James Gunn, Brie Larsen, Kaepernick. The last did have an outcry
 
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Specter Von Baren

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Boycotts on Solo and Rogue One. Boycotts on Marvel movie. Marvel Comics. New Balance. Nike. Netflix

There's currently a campaign on those company who dropped Tucker Carlson like T mobile and Papa Johns. Ben and Jerrys for supporting BLM. Lyft supports ACLU.

You definitely need to keep your bucks away from these terrible companies

Edit: Also Sam Seder, James Gunn, Brie Larsen, Kaepernick. The last did have an outcry
Boycotts are not cancel culture and you examples lack context, what exactly was being boycotted? A boycott is to withdraw your own money or social influence from something/someone, cancel culture is to make it so that something/someone can't influence others by removing its ability to. To put it another way, a boycott is like plugging your ears so you can't hear someone while cancelling someone is like putting a gag in their mouth.
 
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Terminal Blue

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As a man if anything it terrifies me, because especially if I ever became significant in any way apropos of nothing I could be accused of sexual misconduct from possibly even women I have never met without the accuser having so much as a shred of proof, everybody on the planet will instantly believe it is true for no reason, and my life could be utterly obliterated in the span of 5 seconds. All because of accusation that no one beyond the court, the accused, and the accuser should even be aware of much less the media and the public at large.
In addition to the point Thaluikhain made earlier, I'm going to point out that one thing that might happen to you if you were in the public eye, and particularly if you were a youtuber or streamer, is that many women (including many young and vulnerable women) would develop a relationship with you through your content. They might believe that they know you and like you based on content you put out. They might develop a crush on you, even though they know nothing about you beyond your highly curated public image (because if you are successful on youtube or as a streamer, you are curating your public image). They might feel like you're the only person who understands them, or that if they ever met you you'd immediately develop some kind of deep connection. They might use you as an escape from whatever's going on in their lives. They might travel to conventions or meet and greets to try and meet you in person.

The parasocial relationships which develop between celebrities and fans are incredibly powerful, because (for the fans at least) they feel real. So many of the accounts just read the same, and if you're familiar with the other content creators who have abused people, they sound the same as well. They find someone who is vulnerable, whether that's a fan or a smaller creator, and use that preexisting relationship as a threat ("all my real fans do this", "it's the least you could do since I'm bothering to talk to you", "don't talk about this or it will hurt both of us").

Think about it, if that's all you had to do to get people to do whatever you wanted, would you not be tempted? I'll be honest and say that I don't know if I could handle that kind of power over people responsibly, and I don't trust the vast, vast, vast majority of people to do so either. That's especially true of men, and especially men who primarily hang out with other men in the same industry where the same thing is happening to everyone.

So yeah, if you became famous you could be accused of something, but the chances are you would have had many, many opportunities to do it with seemingly no consequences, and even if it did come out the chances are it's not going to end your career. So how sure are you that you wouldn't do it?
 
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Agema

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Those that don't have money but have accusations against them turned into a media circus end up far far worse off because most of them lose everything in the process of having to fight the accusations.
How many people who aren't rich and famous have their sexual assault accusations turned into a media circus? There are 120,000 sexual assaults reported to the police every year in the UK, or ~300 a day. Pick up a daily, national newspaper. How many sexual assault cases are even reported in there (never mind being elevated to a "media circus")? How many do you ever read about more generally? Why are the media going to make a massive hoo-hah about one case in particular concerning John Average, when there are hundreds every day?

Now let's add some more context. I bet you can't even remember 100 sexual assault cases (famous or otherwise) that occurred in the last year from memory alone, and you might not be able to remember 10. I doubt you can remember 100 from the #MeToo movement, which was covering decades of misconduct, nearly all of whom were rich and famous.

So, with that sort of context, your claims here and elsewhere are not realistic. They're along the lines of being terrified you'll be hit by lightning: sure, it can happen, but it almost certainly won't.

Regardless, there is no reason whatsoever that these accusations should be public knowledge...

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter who comes out on top historically, what matters is the truth. If the man harmed a woman and the latter can prove it in the court of law he goes to jail, is sued for everything he has, or whatever measures the court decides is best. If a woman accuses a man of harming her and he didn't, it should be disproved and then resolved through a defamation lawsuit. In either case the public like you or me shouldn't hear about it until it is over if ever, it is not any of our business and thus we shouldn't be involved. Saying "historically X" and acting upon it true or not is the basis for some of the most significant evils to have ever occurred on this planet.
Firstly, it is plainly absurd that an accuser should be sued for defamation just because the suspect is not convicted. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Secondly, a court case is a public process, and thus without exceptional reasons, the names of the suspects and accused should be made public. Without exceptional circumstances the police overwhelmingly do not reveal the names of suspects throughout an investigation (at least in my country), and do not confirm or deny if asked by the media. However, free speech is a thing, so if the media find out, it may be reported - although the mainstream media often don't anyway. How on earth anyone could plan to stop people gossipping by word of mouth or social media is anybody's guess.
 

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Angry Joe didn't even do anything besides try and hook up with a girl. If every single thing she says happened did in fact happen then he is only guilty of being a bit of a dick.
Yup, whole thing looked to me like they both misread the other's intentions and didn't explicitly communicate theirs. People are shit at communicating and reading other people. I wouldn't ascribe malice to either party in that situation. He wasn't some asshole trying to coerce some poor innocent little darling who obviously wanted no part of it into bed and she wasn't some user trying to give a guy the idea she was interested in him to make some contacts and then split. Just a standard clusterfuck of human miscommunication.
 
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Odin

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I’ll wait and see what happens. Because some of this is just people mouthing off on Twitter without much factual basis yet. The only clarification I have (since I only know half these casters). Kaitlyn_n age. Is she’s 23 or more like 27? Because I’m probably going to more angry about the former.
Did some cybersleuthing, turns out she's 32:


So in other words, the guys she was "grooming" would be in their early twenties.

This demonstrates why care should be taken when reading second hand reports of this kind of thing on the Internet. There are unscrupulous people out there who, because of grudges or even political disagreement, will deliberately word an accusation in the way that implies it's worse than it actually is. And then there are other people, like the Reddit OP, who will repeat those accusations uncritically.
 

Trunkage

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Boycotts are not cancel culture and you examples lack context, what exactly was being boycotted? A boycott is to withdraw your own money or social influence from something/someone, cancel culture is to make it so that something/someone can't influence others by removing its ability to. To put it another way, a boycott is like plugging your ears so you can't hear someone while cancelling someone is like putting a gag in their mouth.
1. Show me where anyone who calls for cancelling actually has the power to 'put a gag on someone's mouth'. Usually it just twitter twits who call for such things and have absolutely no power to do anything about it.
2. Boycotting is all about crippling a company or person's finances so they change their ideals. Yes, you are removing you money because you don't like something. If it was just that, it would be fine. But its not. It's about getting a whole bunch of other people to do it at the same time. Video after video are attacking someone's finanaces and saying you should not buy them. If it was just plugging ears, I'd be all for it. But you've made up your own definition and haven't taken into account the vast cottage industry of Youtubers trying to attack people because they have 'progressive' ideals. I.e. They're trying to make it so that something/someone can't influence others by removing its ability to do so
3. Start with this list https://www.investingadvicewatchdog.com/Liberal-Companies-Boycott.html
Then try YouTube.
4. A question. If something has been rating bombed on Steam or Rotten Tomatoes over perceived bad ideals, is that cancelling to you?
 

NotDavidHayter

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Christ, straight men are terrifying.
My point is that even if he is guilty of drunkenly saying "you're just like all the others" or whatever that doesn't make him some kind of predator. Also, he denies he even did that. I was just trying to be truthful in saying that everyone has said something they aren't proud of especially when drunk but that doesn't make them pure evil. Sorry you think I'm terrifying I guess but I think you either misunderstood my point or you have never said something you aren't proud of to someone which I don't believe.
 

Specter Von Baren

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1. Show me where anyone who calls for cancelling actually has the power to 'put a gag on someone's mouth'. Usually it just twitter twits who call for such things and have absolutely no power to do anything about it.
2. Boycotting is all about crippling a company or person's finances so they change their ideals. Yes, you are removing you money because you don't like something. If it was just that, it would be fine. But its not. It's about getting a whole bunch of other people to do it at the same time. Video after video are attacking someone's finanaces and saying you should not buy them. If it was just plugging ears, I'd be all for it. But you've made up your own definition and haven't taken into account the vast cottage industry of Youtubers trying to attack people because they have 'progressive' ideals. I.e. They're trying to make it so that something/someone can't influence others by removing its ability to do so
3. Start with this list https://www.investingadvicewatchdog.com/Liberal-Companies-Boycott.html
Then try YouTube.
4. A question. If something has been rating bombed on Steam or Rotten Tomatoes over perceived bad ideals, is that cancelling to you?
I don't understand why you don't understand. This is all based on the idea of free speech. I don't know what country you come from but here in America people are allowed to say what they want; this means that X is free to say that carrots taste terrible just as Y is free to say X is an idiot and carrots are delicious and tell everyone else that they shouldn't bother listening to X. However, X is still free to say what they want and convince whoever is willing to listen to them that carrots taste terrible.

Cancel culture is a new term for an age old practice where Y would instead forcibly remove X's ability to tell anyone what they think, in other words, taking away their freedom of speech. If X and Y were in a town square then if Y were to forcibly move X out of the town square so he can't even attempt to make his message heard, then that would be cancelling.

Now, we can debate whether this is actually occurring when people say someone is getting cancelled, but if you believe it isn't then you should instead be saying that they are using the term incorrectly rather than conflating the term with boycotting.

My point is that even if he is guilty of drunkenly saying "you're just like all the others" or whatever that doesn't make him some kind of predator. Also, he denies he even did that. I was just trying to be truthful in saying that everyone has said something they aren't proud of especially when drunk but that doesn't make them pure evil. Sorry you think I'm terrifying I guess but I think you either misunderstood my point or you have never said something you aren't proud of to someone which I don't believe.
Welcome to the modern world. Enjoy your stay.
 
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Terminal Blue

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My point is that even if he is guilty of drunkenly saying "you're just like all the others" or whatever that doesn't make him some kind of predator.
It doesn't make him a criminal, but it does kind of make him a predator.

Someone who goes out with the mentality of trying to coerce/trick people into having sex with them, and considers anything short of outright physical violence to be an acceptable tool to accomplish that, is a predator. Someone who leverages their status or influence to make people feel obligated or pressured to have sex with them is a predator. Someone who acts nice, and then suddenly switches and becomes aggressive when met with rejection is a predator. These are predatory tactics, they're designed to make someone feel frightened or obligated so that they will do something they don't want to do. While men who do this often claim they were drunk or out of control, the reality is that it is a calculated process, and people who engage in it will deliberately choose victims they think it will work on.

When I say that straight men are terrifying, I mean that so many straight men (not all straight men, yadda yadda) genuinely don't seem to be able to tell the difference between normal sexual interest and coercion. I'll give you a clue, if you know someone is not interested in having sex with you and you are trying to persuade them that they're wrong, particularly if you're making explicit or implied threats of any kind, what you're doing is actually coercion. If you know that you have power over someone, like the ability to help advance their career, and you're trying to leverage that power to get them to do what you want, that's coercion. If you do seemingly nice things for people, then later demand payment or compensation in the form of sex, that's coercion. If you try to coerce people, you're a predator. You may not be a criminal, but you're a predator.
 

Houseman

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Boycotts on Solo and Rogue One. Boycotts on Marvel movie. Marvel Comics. New Balance. Nike. Netflix

There's currently a campaign on those company who dropped Tucker Carlson like T mobile and Papa Johns. Ben and Jerrys for supporting BLM. Lyft supports ACLU.

You definitely need to keep your bucks away from these terrible companies

Edit: Also Sam Seder, James Gunn, Brie Larsen, Kaepernick. The last did have an outcry

I thought that "cancelling" someone and boycotting them were two different things, or rather, that there's an overlap.

Would you say that boycotting, say, Nestle, is 'cancel culture'?

To me, a cancellation involves a public shaming, a boycott, and also a desire to ruin one's career.

A boycott might just be "I don't support this action, but if you stop doing it, I'll buy your product again."

A cancellation is "He did something improper 5 years ago, let's ruin his career!
 
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NotDavidHayter

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It doesn't make him a criminal, but it does kind of make him a predator.

Someone who goes out with the mentality of trying to coerce/trick people into having sex with them, and considers anything short of outright physical violence to be an acceptable tool to accomplish that, is a predator. Someone who leverages their status or influence to make people feel obligated or pressured to have sex with them is a predator. Someone who acts nice, and then suddenly switches and becomes aggressive when met with rejection is a predator. These are predatory tactics, they're designed to make someone feel frightened or obligated so that they will do something they don't want to do. While men who do this often claim they were drunk or out of control, the reality is that it is a calculated process, and people who engage in it will deliberately choose victims they think it will work on.

When I say that straight men are terrifying, I mean that so many straight men (not all straight men, yadda yadda) genuinely don't seem to be able to tell the difference between normal sexual interest and coercion. I'll give you a clue, if you know someone is not interested in having sex with you and you are trying to persuade them that they're wrong, particularly if you're making explicit or implied threats of any kind, what you're doing is actually coercion. If you know that you have power over someone, like the ability to help advance their career, and you're trying to leverage that power to get them to do what you want, that's coercion. If you do seemingly nice things for people, then later demand payment or compensation in the form of sex, that's coercion. If you try to coerce people, you're a predator. You may not be a criminal, but you're a predator.

Again I think it should be said that we are arguing over behavior that Joe denies. I think in a situation like this the truth is somewhere in the middle. She came on to him first in a flirty way and he responded. They hung out all day and he continously flirted with her. I, my girlfriend, or anyone else would and should divulge the fact that they have a boyfriend or girlfriend in that situation. It is just weird and rude not to. When a girl flirts with me I always just casually bring up the fact that I have a girlfriend. If it is true that Joe got drunk and said a dickish comment at the end of the night then yeah that sucks, but to label him a predator feels ridiculous. We can't just call anyone that does anything slightly wrong a monster who is out to hurt people.
 
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CaitSeith

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As a guy who has been sexually assaulted by 2 women over the course of my life, once as a minor, and as a guy who had a drunken girl "jokingly" accuse him of raping her (which I did not do, quite the opposite), despite her specifically asking me to "keep an eye on her 'cause she acts stupid when she's drunk" I don't find the casual disregard for due process very amusing. Yes, statistically, the number of false accusations might be low, and I don't think anyone should feel it's pointless to file a complaint against a potential predator, but I also don't think that people should just automatically believe someone because they said something, especially when that statement has such massive ramifications.

The idea that we should just ignore due process because the percentage of false accusations is small, seems terrifying to me. I sure wouldn't want that for anyone accused of murder. Where we just say "hey, well someone said he did it, so we'll just all act like he did, without any evidence to back it up." And while I'm quite certain, given the corruption of our legal system, that this very thing does happen, nobody considers it a GOOD IDEA. It's always framed as a Very Bad Thing, that people get punished for crimes simply based on accusations. So I fail to see it being a good idea regarding sexual assault as well, or any crime.
When the due process fails to deliver due justice, people will search for justice on their own. Until the process is fixed, more people will ignore it.
 

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When the due process fails to deliver due justice, people will search for justice on their own. Until the process is fixed, more people will ignore it.
The danger of such a sentiment is that you think only those that follow your own personal ideology will get to do so once it's declared that "laws don't matter".