Sexual Relationships

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Seanchaidh

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Seldon's post above seems an utterly reasonable defense of polyamory.

I suspect the reason monogamy is so popularly recognized as the best way to go today is because of a strange interaction between tradition and the gradual liberation of women. Women as well as children were treated as property of the Patriarch by the Romans and other cultures, and this caused tendencies which haven't yet disappeared. To be property meant being obedient and being unable to make your own decisions. Therefore, to be "faithful" as a wife meant to be like property, and to be like property meant the wife could not decide to fuck anyone other than the husband: the husband would not make that decision, and so the wife couldn't act upon it as that ideal wife-as-property. This is how a "homewrecking" man could be seen as having transgressed against the husband of the wife he fucked: whether rape or simple sex, the man damaged the husband's property by lowering its worth to him as sexual exclusivity (in women!) is often valued by men and a woman who was exclusive but is no longer so would then be 'damaged' (or "damaged goods") at least as a matter of the logic of property.

The above is generally thought of as a rather horrible view to have about women today. But we are not yet without its effects: we ask, who wears the pants in the relationship, and by doing so refer to who is in control. And many women even prefer their man to be somewhat dominant in certain respects. There has been, however, two historical reactions against this attitude that has basically amounted to an opening of relationships generally, with more freedom to choose partners for both the man and woman, and the other somewhat less wholesome tendency for wives simply to demand of their husbands the same sort of strictures that had historically been imposed mostly on the woman in the relationship: now, couples don't exist as a master with a wife as his property, they consist of two people who own and claim certain rights over each other with the idea that the other does so as well. Now they both are each other's property, and this is the basis for ideas that oppose so-called sexual infidelity. Now both people are allowed to desire and demand sexual exclusivity of their partner, and feel 'betrayed' or 'transgressed against' when their partner does not meet that expectation: this is the legacy of women as property and the liberation of women has in some ways meant the subtle imprisonment of men along with the women rather than freedom for both.
 

Seanchaidh

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bagodix said:
Women had considerable freedom during Roman times, even rivalling contemporary society.
Way to generalize a thousand years of history.

Women do prefer dominant men, though they often claim otherwise.
Way to generalize over 3 billion people.

Cheating is frowned upon because you are betraying your spouse and violating the agreement you have made. Even if you aren't married you are still guilty of betrayal. You have agreed to be in a monogamous relationship. If you can't handle monogamy then don't get into a monogamous relationship, it's pretty simple. Also, "freedom" in a civilized society does not equal "I can do whatever the fuck I want regardless of the consequences!"
You seem to entirely miss the point and your response doesn't engage.

You, sir, get a 1/5 on this response.
 

rs2000

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keybird said:
coxafloppin said:
Sex is only a fraction of a relationship. But i can see where your coming from.
A very large fraction, like 98%
No it isn't, i guess depending on your age & emotional standing.

I have been in relationships & had no sex at all whilst in others it's been constant & non stop, but these relationships tend to burn out quickly.

One day you will meet someone that will so blow your mind that you wont be able to picture yourself being with anyone else ever again.
 

Seanchaidh

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rs2000 said:
One day you will meet someone that will so blow your mind that you wont be able to picture yourself being with anyone else ever again.
Or you won't. That could happen too!
 

Seldon2639

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Seanchaidh said:
rs2000 said:
One day you will meet someone that will so blow your mind that you wont be able to picture yourself being with anyone else ever again.
Or you won't. That could happen too!
That's one of the more realistic mindsets I've seen here (outside, I suppose, of my own). There's no guarantee of true love, and no money back warranty on life. There's no one true soulmate for everyone, nor will everyone meet someone who makes them want to never be with another person (much less actually be in a relationship with said someone).

We all seem to have this romanticized ideal that we'll all find our one true loves, and that relationship will be completely satisfactory in every conceivable way. We'll be completely emotionally, physically, intellectually, and sexually compatible.

Life doesn't work like that.
 

Cilliandrew

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I dated a girl for 2 years, and i'm positive, had we stayed together, that she was all the sexual partner i would EVER need. I don't know how to explain it. We screwed like bunnies when we were together, and every night was like the first time. We both just fit together perfectly in THAT regard.

She wasn't even that daring. She NEVER wanted to spice things up, or do anything crazy. She would stop me from doing ANYTHING else to her (I wanted to, but she would never let me).. But every single night for a 2 year period (save for if she was on the rag, and even then......) we had sex, and every single night it was just....the best. To this day i still long to re-experience sex with her..

I'm in another relationship now, and to be honest.. It just isn't the same, sexually. I keep her pleased to be sure (i've always been an above-average lover) but i'm always left feeling a bit hollow. Intellectually she's my match, to be sure, but on a physical level i long for more..

Alot of that is my fault. I'm a very dominant, very effective lover.. Few people can keep up, and eventually every woman i've been with just stops trying to match me and just sits back and enjoys it.. Which is fine, but ultimately i find my experience is very unsatisfying.

I definitely THINK i'd be able to maintain my love for this person while getting involved PHYSICALLY with other women, but i don't think i could ever bring myself to do it to her. I care about her too much.
 

CIA

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bagodix said:
lenin_117 said:
bagodix said:
Snip, Snip, Snip the massive post"
Scientists say:
The troll is strong in this one.
I sense much troll in him
No, you are a troll. You are randomly accusing me of trolling without reason or explanation. In two separate threads you suddenly appear and tell me I'm a troll. That's a textbook example of trolling.
I'm gonna have to go with Vladimir on that one, buddy.

bagodix said:
Silver said:
Tinfoil hats and accusing me of paranoia are not the subject.
Since you have already forgotten, this is what I was replying to:
You're putting words in my mouth, and I'm guessing you misunderstand me on purpose, to make me look bad, or yourself better.
If my reply wasn't on-topic then the problem is at your end because your comment was off-topic to begin with.
Here is a list: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Number one should prove instructive.

No, I said never said all STDs were cureable, I said they were treatable
AIDS is fatal.
Believe it or not, AIDS is treatable.

and I said you could get rid of all unwanted pregnancies with 100% certainty.
Most sane people do not consider abortion a form of birth control.
If you do not consider outside control of whether a child is born to be birth control then it is difficult to ascertain if you are exhibiting a logical thought process. I am forced to realize that you have arrived at your conclusion erroneously.

I want to do away with the nuclear family as a standard.
It's the standard because it works best and is best for society. Not that liberals have ever cared about society.
You must cite reliable sources to complete this point. At the moment it is an unsupported statement that, if you will forgive my rudeness, is terribly ill-informed.

You're either jumping straight to the conclusions you want, with no regard for reality, or you fail to understand the concept. Until I know which one, I can't continue to argue my point, if it's the former no matter what I say, it won't matter, because you won't listen, in the latter, it should be an easy task of informing you.
I'm sure this is somehow really relevant and interesting.[/quote]

He is saying that you lack the mental faculties to debate effectively. Hence, "no regard for reality" and "fail to understand the concept." It is relevant because if you do not have the ability to debate the topic then there is no place for you in this thread.


Seanchaidh said:
Seldon's post above seems an utterly reasonable defense of polyamory.

I suspect the reason monogamy is so popularly recognized as the best way to go today is because of a strange interaction between tradition and the gradual liberation of women. Women as well as children were treated as property of the Patriarch by the Romans and other cultures, and this caused tendencies which haven't yet disappeared.
Women had considerable freedom during Roman times, even rivalling contemporary society. [/quote]

This is a half-truth. They had freedoms, but none to rival contemporary society.

And many women even prefer their man to be somewhat dominant in certain respects.
Women do prefer dominant men, though they often claim otherwise.[/quote]

This sweeping generalization is par for the course.

Now both people are allowed to desire and demand sexual exclusivity of their partner, and feel 'betrayed' or 'transgressed against' when their partner does not meet that expectation: this is the legacy of women as property and the liberation of women has in some ways meant the subtle imprisonment of men along with the women rather than freedom for both.
Cheating is frowned upon because you are betraying your spouse and violating the agreement you have made. Even if you aren't married you are still guilty of betrayal. You have agreed to be in a monogamous relationship. If you can't handle monogamy then don't get into a monogamous relationship, it's pretty simple. Also, "freedom" in a civilized society does not equal "I can do whatever the fuck I want regardless of the consequences!"
I don't see how that added anything new to his post. The general consensus in this thread is that those who cannot handle exclusive relationships should not engage in them. You seem to be under the misapprehension that your comment has some sort of real meaning or intelligence. The "freedom" angle is also wildly off topic. I see where your thought process went, but you cannot have a knee-jerk reaction whenever you see the word "freedom." Freedom, as he used it, does not refer to a "damn all consequences" attitude, but rather to the freedom to preform reasonable and natural acts, free from the judgement of society.
 

justhereforthemoney

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The number one thing men look for in women is beauty and of course sexual appeal. The number one thing women look for in men is financial security. So 15 years into the marriage when the woman has her financial security from the man, and some of the woman's beauty and sexual appeal has left since they first met, the man will probably look elsewhere for what he desires.
 

Kurokami

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bagodix said:
Kurokami said:
bagodix said:
Kurokami said:
I'm pretty sure every man has the sexual temptation programmed into him, no matter how much he loves his 'other'. Perhaps being allowed to indulge in such sexual exploits can alleviate some strain on a relationship too.
Speak for yourself. I have never had any interest in anything other than a single, monogamous long-term relationship. Anything else (including "hooking up" or whatever dumb shit kids do today) is meaningless and not worth considering.
Your opinion, your case, and I am talking about my experience and my perception of the topic. I don't preach it as undeniable truth as you seem to do with your opinion. And you seem to be confusing looking at another woman who is sexually attractive as cheating in itself. You don't have to check her out to consider her attractive, many women simply are.
It was you who said "I'm pretty sure every man...," so if anyone here is preaching an undeniable truth, it's you.
Theres a difference between "I'm pretty sure" and "Every kid is blahblah", its like the difference between similes and other metaphores.

bagodix said:
Doesn't have to be considered betrayal.
Virtually everyone will consider it betrayal.
I consider virtually everyone I don't know to be a moron, that doesn't mean they are. (though often the mark hits pretty close) Its only betrayal if its done behind their backs really, that's what most people are discussing.
 

Warbandit

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scrambledeggs said:
You sir are obscene, and I feel sorry for you. You're going to be very lonely.
If you ever fall in love, then maybe you'll understand what I experience each day.
QFT, I agree with this person whole heartedly.
 

badgersprite

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Well, I've always thought that different people need different things in their lives. People are at different stages of maturity, and have their own issues, so the idea of being with a partner who likes seeing other people has never bothered me. Why should it? I don't own them. As long as they come home to me, I have no reason to get jealous.

But then I'm an unusual person. I don't feel jealousy. Maybe it's just my stoicism showing. Mind you, I'm perfectly content being with one person, and I never have and never will cheat on a partner (especially knowing that those who sleep around tend to be the most possessive and would react badly to it if I did), but I recognise that not everyone is at the same place in their life that I am. If they feel a need to be with more than one person, then that's a reflection of their personality, and not of me, so the thought has never bothered me.

Besides, some people I know just have too much love in their hearts for one person - if they settled down, they wouldn't be themselves anymore. Social conventions are overrated; people are going to do what they need to do, and there's always a reason for it. My open relationships have by a long way been the closest and most loving ones I've experienced, because it keeps that friendship and trust alive. And, in fact, knowing that they can be with other people if they choose to, and that they have that freedom often makes my partners more loyal; they have the option, but never take it. Funny how people are like that. =3
 

Bourne Endeavor

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Whilst a portion of the relationship, sex is by far not the most noteworthy and in actuality can be regulated to the bottom of the list should the individuals consent. Society today places a significance upon sex far in excess. I am of the mind loving connection is the principle focus for establishing a long prosperous relationship, with sex deviated to nothing beyond a complimenting feature; a secondary means to illustrate love.

A life time of lecherous lust, one night stands and their variation will forever fall by the wayside to even a singular time with the individual with whom you truly care for. I hold preference in awaiting for such an experience than pointless sex; admittedly I have an apathetic view toward relationships and especially sex in general. I suppose such is pride, perhaps arrogance however only a worthwhile girl will remedy the aforementioned and she shall be worth the wait.
 

Chaos Bringer

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Someone once said;

Love to a man is only a chapter in his life but to a girl it's the whole book.
The man's book is about sex.
 

RobCoxxy

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It's entirely natural for a man to find monogomy boring. It's an evolutionary thing. Way back when, males were basically tasked with "spreading their seed" as much as possible to ensure their genes were passed on.

It's still kind of inherent in modern males, although we do damn well try our hardest.

Although GOD DAMMIT every time me or my friends have been in a relationship and ONLY focused on one girl, they've always f*cked off with someone else. HURRAY.
 

Spade Lead

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Kurokami said:
Oh yes, another relationship thread. Though this one isn't seeking advice, its just for the sake of starting discussion.

I've been pondering a while now about the nature of relationships, and whilst I don't doubt that there are people (fuck this one person bs, sorry if you believe in that) out there who can meet my 'emotional needs', or have enough depth to keep my interested for a while, I have a hard time picturing myself being sexually loyal to one person (meaning that I wouldn't prefer having sex with another). That's not to say I'd prefer going out with someone different then my significant other, but sex with the one person often gets dull. (yes there are ways to 'spice things up', but most times you'll either be with a prude or find it too offensive or strange to ask) of course I doubt anyones capacity to trust their partner enough to allow them to have multiple sexual partners, particularly since love can fade and I believe in more then having just that 'one' person. I guess my question is, would you be able to trust a partner to having an open sexual relationship? would you trust yourself? How about if its a hooker? The chance of an intimate connection seems to drop as the sex is 'professional'.

I'm sure I didn't quite portray my thoughts here right, I'll get back to this with tweaking tools eventually. But do discuss your opinions on the positives and negatives. I don't know about women, but I'm pretty sure every man has the sexual temptation programmed into him, no matter how much he loves his 'other'. Perhaps being allowed to indulge in such sexual exploits can alleviate some strain on a relationship too.
My fiance has told me she wants no other men because I am MORE than enough to satisfy her. As for me, some days I think I would want a second partner, most days I know I don't. And I say this because I HAVE cheated in a previous relationship, and all it did was make things even worse than they were... More than one partner just doubles or triples your daily hassles, even if they DO know about each other...
 

Wadders

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duckfi8 said:
never get married
I read 2 pages of this thread, then I saw this post on the last page. I have to quote you, because what you say is true. My parents never married (I'm a bastard :) ) and they're happy as they were the day they met.

Marriage is a license to be miserable with life.

I am fairly aware this if off topic, but I'm drunk, so hey! As far as I know, sex is good, but so is the feeling of being loved properly. So basically, just have loads of fuckbuddies, then settle down into somethin' serious when you're in you're late 20's. :D That's my plan at least...
 

Seanchaidh

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bagodix said:
Seanchaidh said:
Way to generalize a thousand years of history.
So it's ok when you do it, but not ok when someone else does it. Point is that at some time in Roman history women did have rights equalling those of the modern world.
First, no, they didn't, and second, what on earth does that have to do with my point? It certainly doesn't detract from it. It is a fact that a practice in Ancient Rome was to treat women as property, it's called a Manus marriage. Oddly enough, there was an amount of Women's liberation in Rome and (for some strange reason) it matches the history I've outlined.

Way to generalize over 3 billion people.
It's a valid generalization.
You're going to have to document that! You'll just call me an idiot or a liberal instead, though. That will be great. You'll show me!

You seem to entirely miss the point and your response doesn't engage.
No, you're just trying to obfuscate the issue with all this bullshit about how cheating is supposedly only wrong because women were property x decades/centuries/millennia ago. It's completely irrelevant because the fact is that people don't like cheating because they don't like to be betrayed. They expect that their spouse/significant other is faithful to them because that's what they both agreed to.
See, there you go missing the point again. People only feel 'betrayed' because they feel they have rights over their partner for whatever reason. I've submitted that relationships have evolved into what they are from roots in the past which included treating women just like property.

Seanchaidh said:
I'm gonna have to go with Vladimir on that one, buddy.
Then you, too, are a troll.
Way to misquote someone. (I didn't say that.)

Believe it or not, AIDS is treatable.
It's fatal. There is no vaccine or cure.
And it is treatable. People receive treatments for it all the time. You're rather off point here. It's as if you're arguing that the sky is blue in response to the claim that grass is green.

If you do not consider outside control of whether a child is born to be birth control then it is difficult to ascertain if you are exhibiting a logical thought process. I am forced to realize that you have arrived at your conclusion erroneously.
Playing with semantics will get you nowhere. Fact: most sane people do not consider abortion a form of birth control, i.e. no different from condoms and pills.
I had no idea that sane people were unaware of what the words "birth" and "control" meant.

You must cite reliable sources to complete this point. At the moment it is an unsupported statement that, if you will forgive my rudeness, is terribly ill-informed.
I'm sure it seems that way to a liberal.
On request for a source, you respond with an ad hominem.

You're in no position to lecture others about ad hominems.
Amusing.

Then you, too, are a troll.
Right, this.

The "freedom" angle is also wildly off topic. I see where your thought process went, but you cannot have a knee-jerk reaction whenever you see the word "freedom." Freedom, as he used it, does not refer to a "damn all consequences" attitude, but rather to the freedom to preform reasonable and natural acts, free from the judgement of society.
Cheating is not reasonable and not something that you should be able to do without judgement from others.
You're just saying that and ignoring what's been said. "Cheating" is entirely reasonable in a relationship of equals that doesn't demand exclusivity of partners. In fact, in that case, it wouldn't even be called cheating. You're assuming into existence an agreement that need not be present to have a sexual or even family relationship. It is customary for a relationship to end or be called into question when one person starts fucking other people. It is not, however, necessary for a relationship to be under threat when that happens.