Sexy Shelob...why? Just why?

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Personally, I always found Peter Stormare's appearance as the Devil in Constantine to be the definitive "Devil in human form". Stormare manages to strike a fine balance between his natural ham, an affable facade and being really, really creepy.

 

[Erttheking]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination...

Uhh... every single version of that myth that I've read had Athena turning Arachne into a regular spider.

... which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.

No it doesn't. The design we see here is neither a spider nor a half-woman-half-spider abomination. It's just a woman in a dress.

I'm mostly curious about why we're referencing Ancient Greek mythology in a story set in Tolkien's absurdly detailed world. Given Tolkien's life story, Mata Hari would be a better reference.

Tolkien had stated time and again that he did not base LOTR off of his time in war. That's not even getting into the fact that he was yanking bits from a bunch of other mythologies and cultures while making his books. (The elves in particular drew a lot of influence from Celtic foklore.) The idea that he'd pull something from Greek Myths is hardly out there.

Snip

I seem to recall him appearing as a little boy/ an old wrinkled man in Nocturne. Hardly sexy.

Not sexy, but still approachable. You wouldn't expect a little kid or an old man to try and backstab you, and even if they do you'd think you could take them. It's all about getting someone to lower their guard and be willing to trust you. (Plus, given the circumstances of that game, showing up as someone who SHOULDN'T be able to survive in that world but somehow did would at the very least make you inclined to figure out how they managed that.)

For crying out loud, this idea has been a storytelling trope since before the freaking Iliad! The only reason Shelob wouldn't go for, say, an old crone, is because the MC has shown that he has a weak point when it comes to attractive women, and if she took the form of a child, he'd be more interested in getting her out of Mordor entirely!

You expect this old man and kid to backstab you. They both look freaking wrong. And you hardly think you can take them when you know supernatural crap is going on, when takes about five minutes to figure out in Nocturne.

I know it's really unoriginal. Oh...MC has a weakness for women...question. One, how? Two, if so, how does Shelob know that? She's not a mind reader. Also all of this is kind of ruined by the fact that Shelob really isn't pretending to be a normal woman, it's like one of those depictions of Lucifer with devil horns and glowing eyes, considering she looks pristine even though she lives in a dirty cave in orc controlled Mordor. He really should know better. Particularly when the Wraith is hammering it in that it's a bad idea. Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

But hey what do I know. I have problems with "female sexuality"

 

[Zhukov]

Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

In the cutscene shown in the trailers she isn't trying to deceive him exactly.

She shows herself in big fuck-off spider form then turns into the black dress chick right in front of him.

 

[Erttheking]

Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

In the cutscene shown in the trailers she isn't trying to deceive him exactly.

She shows herself in big fuck-off spider form then turns into the black dress chick right in front of him.

I'm guessing you and I are in agreement that not only does this show his views pointless this human form is, but how hollow the seduction defense is.

 

[Zhukov]

Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

In the cutscene shown in the trailers she isn't trying to deceive him exactly.

She shows herself in big fuck-off spider form then turns into the black dress chick right in front of him.

I'm guessing you and I are in agreement that not only does this show his views pointless this human form is, but how hollow the seduction defense is.

Hmm, I dunno man. Dude's been single for a quite some time now.

Maybe he's been going dry long enough to still want to stick it in regardless of stray thoughts of mandibles and carapaces.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

You expect this old man and kid to backstab you. They both look freaking wrong. And you hardly think you can take them when you know supernatural crap is going on, when takes about five minutes to figure out in Nocturne.

I know it's really unoriginal. Oh...MC has a weakness for women...question. One, how? Two, if so, how does Shelob know that? She's not a mind reader. Also all of this is kind of ruined by the fact that Shelob really isn't pretending to be a normal woman, it's like one of those depictions of Lucifer with devil horns and glowing eyes, considering she looks pristine even though she lives in a dirty cave in orc controlled Mordor. He really should know better. Particularly when the Wraith is hammering it in that it's a bad idea. Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

But hey what do I know. I have problems with "female sexuality"

Wrong or not, they don't look intimidating which is half the freaking point of the trope. Also, if you're expecting a backstab from a little kid, that's more on you than anything.

As for the second part, first; what do you mean by how? Some people are just stupid like that. It was an issue in the first game too to the point the bloodthirsty elf ghost called him out on it because of how recently Talion lost his Wife and Son. As for how Shelob knows this? Captured and interrogated runaway slaves, just taking a gamble based on what she knows about humans (Talion is not anywhere CLOSE to being unique with this weakness.), kind of a lot of options here.

And yeah, he should know better. Like I said, people can be really stupid with things like this. I mean, you remember the legends of Troy right? An entire city wiped out because a dipwad prince couldn't keep it in his pants.

Heck, for all we know he hasn't fallen for it and is just playing along with her.

And yes, you DO have issues man. I've met freaking NUNS who don't get as bent out of shape or as often about this subject as you do. This game is selling loot crates for the multiplayer that basically lets one pay for progression, and you're griping about needless fanservice in a character. (Really MILD fanservice at that. She's not even showing much, if any cleavage.) You told me to spoiler a series of images when the absolute most they showed was cleavage for crying out loud!

Honestly, I'm not even trying to be mean here. This is just from what I've noticed from our spirited discussions here.

Hmm, I dunno man. Dude's been single for a quite some time now.

Maybe he's been going dry long enough to still want to stick it in regardless of stray thoughts of mandibles and carapaces.

Perhaps he's a leg man?

 

[EternallyBored]

I think everyone might be reading a bit far into the plot for what has been shown so far, we don't really know the exact order of events or most of the what's and whys at this point, although it has been shown that Tallion sees Shelob in spider form so the whole seduction and trickery angle seems mostly moot at this point. Still, it's kind of veering off into assumptions.

As for the Arachne comparison, it's already been pointed out that neither the Tolkien or WB version of Shelob really have anything to do with that legend beyond both involving spiders at some point. The original legends I've seen either involve Arachne being turned into a regular spider or her killing herself and being reborn as a spider. The only time I've seen the term Arachne used for driders or spiderlike creatures or spider women is in anime and video games, which might be where Dreiko is getting the comparison from, Shelob has no real resemblence to Arachne in either appearance or story comparison sense.

In the trope or legendary creature sense, the WB Shelob seems to draw generic inspiration from spider motif characters that follow the man eater trope, whereas Tolkien's Shelob follows the general monster driven by ravenous hunger template. Inspired by female spiders that eat their mates after procreation or just poisonous spiders in general, as well as numerous examples of ancient female monsters that follow the same pattern of luring men to their doom, it's more a case of spiders being attached to old cautionary tales of female man eater monsters than any specific Western legend or creature. It might also be a case of cultural crossover as Japan does have a specific man eater spider legend in the Jorogumo.

In the West I haven't seen female man eater spiders much in fiction until after the Black Widow is discovered and then the association develops that links the larger female spider to a dangerous seductive iconography. Part of this could be because deadly poisonous spiders aren't as common in Europe with various species generally being less dangerous and less Aggressive than African, Australian, or American varieties. The trope in the west involving spider women being sexy in fantasy was also pushed by the popularity of D&D with Driders and the female dominated spider worshipping Drow elves.

Unless I'm mistaken, the spiders as seductresses in the West is more of a 20th century trope pushed by fantasy fiction like D&D and the cross cultural contamination of Japanese media, rather than any sort of European legend that inspired Tolkien. The Norse and northern mythology that Tolkien loved is largely devoid of spider related shenanigans.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

No, they just look creepy as fuck. I mean seriously, would you EVER trust a man that looks like this?

http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/smtn/ess-051.jpg

He looks like a goddamn James Bond villain.

How do you know he has a weakness for attractive women? There was a grand total of two in the first game and one only lasted for five minutes. What, because he was married and has a dead wife he has a weakness for attractive women? That's making Talion out to be an even more one dimensional character than I thought he was, and I thought he was a pretty one dimensional character. And I'm sorry, runaway slaves? I admit it's been awhile since I played Shadow of Mordor, but I missed the part where Talion sat down the escaped slaves and gave them all story time on his tragic backstory. And Shelob can conduct interrogations on top of shape shifting? Sure, why not. Anymore powers you want to give her that blatantly contradict her character? If an escaped slave made his way into Shelob's lair, she wouldn't interrogate him. She's just eat him. I have to say, there's around half a dozen "ifs" we have to go through in order to make this situation halfway plausible, each pushing things further into the absurd than the last. IF Talion has a weakness for women, IF Shelob knew this, IF someone learned about it, IF they made their way into Shelob's cave, and IF she had a means and a desire to get it out of him. Oh, and Shelob doesn't even vaguely look like Talion's wife. If she did, we'd probably get something more like this.

https://youtu.be/5rzCRucQzeY?t=2m19s

There's people being stupid and then there's just being flat out braindead. If Talion falls for this, he's officially in the latter category.

If that's the case, then this can all be officially filed under "a waste of my fucking time." Because what would be the fucking point then?

I'm sure to you, I do. Because I've actually talked to women about sexuality, their sexuality, and they seem to disagree with you on that one. I'll take their views, the views of the actual women who know more about female sexuality than you do, over yours. Then again, they don't seem to equate female sexuality with tits in video games, nor do they seem to think that pointing out female characters are often the victims of tired and cliched writing, on top of mainly being sources of fanservice, is against female sexuality. Hell, they agree with me on my criticisms. The actual women whose sexuality you say I have a problem with. Oh the lootboxes, if only I could care about two things at once, oh wait, I can and I do.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081181

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081228

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081285

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083122

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083235

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083271

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions?page=2#24083433

Don't insult my intelligence. More than you already have that is. I'm not so simple that I'm incapable of caring about more than one thing at a time. For the record, me complaining about microtransactions has not stopped me from caring about the vandalized Holocaust memorial in Boston.

It's not about her showing skin. It's about them taking a giant man eating spider and deciding that she needed to be an attractive women that's easy on the eyes. Seriously, how fucking lazy and unimaginative are writers to keep coming up with shit like this? It's a tired and boring cliche, and now they're just going out of their way to crowbar it in, in a situation where it REALLY doesn't make any sense, and you need around fifteen contrivances to make it work. For fuck's sake, games can do better than this kind of hack writing.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Snip

No, they just look creepy as fuck. I mean seriously, would you EVER trust a man that looks like this?

http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/smtn/ess-051.jpg

He looks like a goddamn James Bond villain.

How do you know he has a weakness for attractive women? There was a grand total of two in the first game and one only lasted for five minutes. What, because he was married and has a dead wife he has a weakness for attractive women? That's making Talion out to be an even more one dimensional character than I thought he was, and I thought he was a pretty one dimensional character. And I'm sorry, runaway slaves? I admit it's been awhile since I played Shadow of Mordor, but I missed the part where Talion sat down the escaped slaves and gave them all story time on his tragic backstory. And Shelob can conduct interrogations on top of shape shifting? Sure, why not. Anymore powers you want to give her that blatantly contradict her character? If an escaped slave made his way into Shelob's lair, she wouldn't interrogate him. She's just eat him. I have to say, there's around half a dozen "ifs" we have to go through in order to make this situation halfway plausible, each pushing things further into the absurd than the last. IF Talion has a weakness for women, IF Shelob knew this, IF someone learned about it, IF they made their way into Shelob's cave, and IF she had a means and a desire to get it out of him. Oh, and Shelob doesn't even vaguely look like Talion's wife. If she did, we'd probably get something more like this.

https://youtu.be/5rzCRucQzeY?t=2m19s

There's people being stupid and then there's just being flat out braindead. If Talion falls for this, he's officially in the latter category.

If that's the case, then this can all be officially filed under "a waste of my fucking time." Because what would be the fucking point then?

I'm sure to you, I do. Because I've actually talked to women about sexuality, their sexuality, and they seem to disagree with you on that one. I'll take their views, the views of the actual women who know more about female sexuality than you do, over yours. Then again, they don't seem to equate female sexuality with tits in video games, nor do they seem to think that pointing out female characters are often the victims of tired and cliched writing, on top of mainly being sources of fanservice, is against female sexuality. Hell, they agree with me on my criticisms. The actual women whose sexuality you say I have a problem with. Oh the lootboxes, if only I could care about two things at once, oh wait, I can and I do.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081181

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081228

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081285

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083122

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083235

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083271

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions?page=2#24083433

Don't insult my intelligence. More than you already have that is. I'm not so simple that I'm incapable of caring about more than one thing at a time. For the record, me complaining about microtransactions has not stopped me from caring about the vandalized Holocaust memorial in Boston.

It's not about her showing skin. It's about them taking a giant man eating spider and deciding that she needed to be an attractive women that's easy on the eyes. Seriously, how fucking lazy and unimaginative are writers to keep coming up with shit like this? It's a tired and boring cliche, and now they're just going out of their way to crowbar it in, in a situation where it REALLY doesn't make any sense, and you need around fifteen contrivances to make it work. For fuck's sake, games can do better than this kind of hack writing.

EVERYONE looks creepy as fuck in that era of Shin Megami Games. Honestly, I kind of miss it.

As for how I know he has a weakness for attractive women? The fact that he was grooving for that lady in the first game to the point that the ghost had to come in and basically tell him "dude, your family, including your wife, died like last week and you're basically a zombie. Knock it off."

Also, games in general are a waste of time. That's half their point. Letting you kill time in an entertaining way. The same can also be said of all media. Help you kill time and be entertained while doing so.

Also, I've talked to women about their sexuality too. More than a few of them honestly LOVE seeing and playing characters like Bayonetta and even Ivy. Granted, some of them were from the older schools of feminist thought where women actually being able to show they are in fact sexual beings was awesome, but then you had a couple of lesbian acquaintances who honestly drool over them more than I do, and then there are women who just love the idea of being a, in their own words, "a badass, sexy *****." It's basically their power fantasy.

Also, I never said you couldn't focus on more than one thing. Just that whenever fanservice and sexuality comes up, I can almost time the EXACT moment you'll come barging in.

And you're right. Games CAN do better writing than that. Planescape Torment and KOTOR 2 showed that off quite well. You know what else can do better writing as well? Movies, books, TV shows, plays, comics, and so on. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this Er, but good writing in ANY media tends to be the exception and not the norm, particularly when it comes to big expensive blockbusters.

As an aside, this actually isn't NEARLY as lazy as you claim it is. Lazy, would've been keeping Shelob as a Spider that does little more than eat everything and lay eggs. With this though? Now they have to give her personality and motivations. She would've been easier to write as the spider.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Which kind of doesn't really fit in with your claim that he looks non threatening.

And that translates to him being thick enough to fall for an obviously evil woman trying to trick him...how?

I don't consider fun to be a waste of time. Having my time being used up by a generic seduction plotline that will go nowhere? That is a waste of my time, because it is neither fun, nor engaging.

And what do you know, the women I talked to liked playing Bayoneta too, because it turns out Bayoneta isn't the same kind of writing that we're talking about right now, nor is Bayoneta a symbol of the style or quality of writing of women in most games. Seriously, most of them can't hold a candle to her. And if we're talking about "sexy badass bitches" I really don't think this take of Shelob is what they had in mind. And the women I talk to are of the school of thought of "sexualized women are fine, but can we please get some variety? And when a woman is sexualized, can it match her personality?" Hell, my female best's friend's favorite game, which she feels does a good job of having variety in female characters, is Suikoden. Which has characters like this.

Spoiler

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/a/ac/Oulan01.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100226040742

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/c/cb/Hanna01.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100228140950

https://yurination.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/kisara.jpg

And like this

Spoiler

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/3/37/S3_Chris_Lightfellow.png/revision/latest?cb=20140709163528

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/2/22/Lorelai-1.gif/revision/latest?cb=20101216043717

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/6/65/Queen01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100408003652

Note the lack of a stupid looking breastplate on the silver haired one. Also, the redhead with the muscles, Oulan, fits the bill of a sexy, badass ***** much more than 90% of sexualized women in gaming. And she's not even a *****, she's honestly pretty laid back and nice.

Then why the fuck did you bring it up? Oh, when a topic I care about comes up I get involved. How fucking dare I! I can't help but notice you tend to pop up in those conversations too. You know what that proves? The exact same thing it proves when I pop up. Fuck. All.

Good writing tends to be the exception? Oh, so you admit this isn't good writing. Thank you. Also, now that I have been uninformed that good writing tends to be the exception, let me tell you how my attitude towards bad writing has changed. It has not. I call out shit writing when I see it, and the fact that the bar is low overall means fuck all to me.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Snip

Which kind of doesn't really fit in with your claim that he looks non threatening.

And that translates to him being thick enough to fall for an obviously evil woman trying to trick him...how?

I don't consider fun to be a waste of time. Having my time being used up by a generic seduction plotline that will go nowhere? That is a waste of my time, because it is neither fun, nor engaging.

And what do you know, the women I talked to liked playing Bayoneta too, because it turns out Bayoneta isn't the same kind of writing that we're talking about write now, nor is Bayoneta a symbol of the style or quality of writing of women in most games. Seriously, most of them can't hold a candle to her. And if we're talking about "sexy badass bitches" I really don't think this take of Shelob is what they had in mind. And the women I talk to are of the school of thought of "sexualized women are fine, but can we please get some variety? And when a woman is sexualized, can it match her personality?" Hell, my female best's friend's favorite game, which she feels does a good job of having variety in female characters, is Suikoden. Which has characters like this.

Spoiler

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/a/ac/Oulan01.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100226040742

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/c/cb/Hanna01.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100228140950

https://yurination.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/kisara.jpg

And like this

Spoiler

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/3/37/S3_Chris_Lightfellow.png/revision/latest?cb=20140709163528

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/2/22/Lorelai-1.gif/revision/latest?cb=20101216043717

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/suikoden/images/6/65/Queen01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100408003652

Note the lack of a stupid looking breastplate on the silver haired one. Also, the redhead with the muscles, Oulan, fits the bill of a sexy, badass ***** much more than 90% of sexualized women in gaming. And she's not even a *****, she's honestly pretty laid back and nice.

Then why the fuck did you bring it up? Oh, when a topic I care about comes up I get involved. How fucking dare I! I can't help but notice you tend to pop up in those conversations too. You know what that proves? The exact same thing it proves when I pop up. Fuck. All.

Good writing tends to be the exception? Oh, so you admit this isn't good writing. Thank you. Also, now that I have been uninformed that good writing tends to be the exception, let me tell you how my attitude towards bad writing has changed. It has not. I call out shit writing when I see it, and the fact that the bar is low overall means fuck all to me.

Actually, it doesn't hurt my claim at all. Again, EVERY character looks like that. Even the ones ostensibly on your side. He doesn't look particularly threatening when compared to literally every other character.

It translates into he'd be more easily manipulated by an attractive woman than he would anything else. It's apparent that he doesn't think as clearly as he should with attractive ladies than he does with others.

Just because you're having fun doesn't mean it's not a waste of time. You could be doing something more productive such as studying new subjects to help you with your job, or gathering litter or something like that. If you have fun while doing something constructive then awesome. Doesn't change the fact that when you're gaming you're not doing something to better yourself or your community. You're just killing time and having fun while doing it.

We already have a lot of variety with female character designs Er, fanservicey designs tend to take center stage more due to the primary audience for a lot of games being men, but that doesn't stop a lot of modest designs from mingling in so I don't know why you get so bent out of shape over it. Also, that last outfit in the second group strikes me as pretty bad. She's got pants that looks like it doubles as a shirt. What even is that? It's too baggy to be a leotard. What's with that grey vest even? OH WAIT! The pants and shirt are separate colors! Geeze, I'm colorblind! Still want to know the point of the vest though.

And I bring it up because, as I've said before, I've met Nuns who don't get as bent out of shape about this subject as much as you do. It's honestly more than a little concerning. And the only reason I pop up as much as you do is because I actually get a real kick out of these conversations of ours. I also have to wonder WHY an overabundance of sexy women in games bothers you so much.

Plus, I have to do SOMETHING to entertain myself before my work shift starts, and I don't want to get REALLY into a game only to have it interrupted.

Also, at no point did I ever claim this was good writing. Outside of RPGs, I don't really expect much of writing in games. Also, I'd go so far as to say Tolkien's original writing for Shelob is worse writing than this. It hints that there's more to her than just being a big spider, but never does much with it. (Breaking a cardinal writing rule there, show, don't tell.)

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

So basically it's the same line of reasoning you pull with bad writing, the bar overall has been set pretty low.

This still requires him to have zero self awareness and to be as dumb as a sack of hammers. I mean, the Wrath is flat out telling him not to trust Shelob, and the Wrath has done a lot more to earn Talion's trust than be easy on the eyes.

I beg to differ. And none of this changes the fact that a stupid, asinine, badly written sub plot that goes nowhere is not fun, nor is it engaging.

You know, every time someone brings up the weak and tired excuse that men are the primary audience for games, I roll my eyes. Remember the stereotype in the 90s and early 2000s that nerds were lonely virgins who were easily tantalized by titties? Can we please not use that stereotype as a defense? The idea that men are so easily enticed by tits and that that will easily pull us in (the old sex sells defense) really sells our gender short. Yeah, some modest designs, but way too many over sexualized characters are thrown in in situations where it just doesn't fit, and many cases often contradicts their character. Because I actually give a fuck about the quality of games, is that too alien a thought for you to understand? Frankly, I don't get why you get so bent out of shape about me having an opinion you don't like. If I wanted to not deal with oversexualized women in gaming, I'd have to be very selective in what games I bought. If you wanted to not deal with my opinion, you'd just have to slap me on your ignore list. So what's the deal? And the fact that you don't personally care for Lorelai's design really doesn't change the point that I made about Suikoden's approach to women...which you pretty much glazed over. Along with my response to your Bayonetta defense.

Maybe you should stop stereotyping nuns. I went to Catholic school from first grade through eighth, and they're pretty chill people. It wasn't Vice Principle Jane or Principle Loraine, it was Sister Jane and Sister Loraine. You say "I've met nuns that aren't as bent out of shape" like it means anything. They don't act like sex is teh evils anymore. And I've already covered this up above.

Doesn't really seem like you're having a good time.

Well good for you, having low standards for games. I don't. I know they can do better and I don't settle for sub par. Oh, there's more to her than being a giant spider, instead we get stock seductress #1249. Hey, if we're getting something else other than a giant spider, can we get something that's actually more interesting than a giant spider? Because despite your claim that she was "just" a giant spider, Peter Jackson's take on something that was "just" a giant spider had a hell of a lot more impact on me and audiences around the world than this boring and unoriginal mess.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

(Breaking a cardinal writing rule there, show, don't tell.)

There's a lesser known corollary for creating mystery and horror: imply, don't show.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really work out so when when claiming that a giant spider monster is more intelligent than the average monster.

snip

Eh, I'd continue on, but honestly I'm running out of steam here. Believe it or not Er, I actually do enjoy our conversations. It's always good to make sure one isn't forming a bubble around one's self.

I do have one question left in me though. Those women you brought up before that you said hated Lady Shelob, how many of them were actually planning on buying the game?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I do have one question left in me though. Those women you brought up before that you said hated Lady Shelob, how many of them were actually planning on buying the game?

Out of curiosity, are we talking "straw that broke the camel's back" or "single issue voter" sort of stuff?

Because, personally speaking, sexy Shelob's done nothing to entice me into buying a lootcrate enhanced single-player open-world game with bolted-on multiplayer produced by WB. If the writing turns out to be stellar, and roughly 10x more clever than it's looking, I could see picking it up after reviews.

Or are we going for an "if you aren't the target audience, you shouldn't criticize it" sort of thing?

 

[Erttheking]

(Breaking a cardinal writing rule there, show, don't tell.)

There's a lesser known corollary for creating mystery and horror: imply, don't show.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really work out so when when claiming that a giant spider monster is more intelligent than the average monster.

snip

Eh, I'd continue on, but honestly I'm running out of steam here. Believe it or not Er, I actually do enjoy our conversations. It's always good to make sure one isn't forming a bubble around one's self.

I do have one question left in me though. Those women you brought up before that you said hated Lady Shelob, how many of them were actually planning on buying the game?

My best friend actually did buy the first game and didn't complain about it outside of saying it was short and did seem interested until this and the microtransactions. As for the others? Haven't asked.

 

[Erttheking]

Haven't read the whole thread but in case it hasn't been posted yet, looks like this is the best explanation for now -

Spoiler

https://dvsgaming.org/monolith-explains-why-shelob-is-a-woman-in-middle-earth-shadow-of-war/

Oh and don't forget

Spoiler

 

[Kerg3927]

Of course, we also don't have a history of gay dudes torturing and murdering straight people for being straight. That kind of context matters.

And so that history gives anyone a free pass to hate straight people indiscriminately and insult them all they want without any backlash? Indiscriminate hate is indiscriminate hate, and it's wrong, period.

So everything is a zero sum game? In order for some people to be happy, others have to be made unhappy?

I wouldn't use the word "happy" because a quick scan of the internet or news and it's pretty clear that nobody is "happy," as in content with their situation. Everyone is always wanting more. More attention, more acknowledgement, more wealth, more representation... just more of something. And yes, the typical way to get "more" is to take it from someone else.

A multibillion dollar industry like video games can only afford to cater to one very specific market?

Never said that, but it is perfectly understandable if they place a greater emphasis on catering to the larger portions of their market, with the goal being to maximize sales. That's just business sense and common sense.

Minorities should just accept that they never will be the equals of those in power?

Depends upon what you mean by equal. Equal under the law, as in everyone has the same rights under the law? I think that's achievable, and has been mostly achieved in the West over the past century.

Equal as in wealth? No. Wealth is probably never going to equally redistributed.

Equal in government representation? No. There will never be a Congress or a Parliament in which there is an equal number representing every race and sexual orientation. Some group is always going to have more votes and thus more power. It can become more representative, but probably not equal.

Equal as in having a say in video game content? No. See prior question about the market. Developers are generally going to cater more to the groups with the most wallets, and less to groups with fewer wallets.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Of course, we also don't have a history of gay dudes torturing and murdering straight people for being straight. That kind of context matters.

And so that history gives anyone a free pass to hate straight people indiscriminately and insult them all they want without any backlash? Indiscriminate hate is indiscriminate hate, and it's wrong, period.

Wait, who's hating on dudebros? They're lovely people, just catered too maybe a tad much. Though I do feel I've done them a disservice, when it's the "change is censorship, even when it's three pixels on underboob and done for logistical reasons" crowd I generally have a problem with. Dudebros are ultimately more chill.

A multibillion dollar industry like video games can only afford to cater to one very specific market?

Never said that, but it is perfectly understandable if they place a greater emphasis on catering to the larger portions of their market, with the goal being to maximize sales. That's just business sense and common sense.

There are currently more adult women in the games market than teenaged boys, so if the market could shift toward that any day now, that'd be great.

Writing for a specific stereotype of teen boy for decades has led videogame writing to be in the dire straights it's in.