Shadow Complex Prompts Difficult Questions

[cjbos81]

As if I would ever own an xbox in the first place.

Microsoft is bigoted against quality products.

 

[Kojiro ftt]

News flash: every game developer has personal and political views that may or may not coincide with your own. They still deserve to earn a living, so go ahead and buy the game. If you like it, of course.

 

[Megacherv]

If it's by Epic, I wouldn't care if it had a serious back-story about baby-eating. It's by Epic, so the main focus is blowing stuff up in fantastic pixel-shaded ways.

EDIT: I'm tempted to say "If this is good, it's balancing out the pile of crap that's Gears of War and UT3 on the 360, so they have the same quality level as UT3 on the PS3" But I won't, as I really don't want to piss people off.

...want this game, although I could get Crash Commando for the time being...

 

[MortisLegio]

I have an idea "DONT BUY THE GAME" if you find it offensive

 

[ElegantSwordsman]

Pretty stupid reason to not buy a game if you ask me. If everyone put their personal agendas first, nothing would ever get done. The pretentious let's all pretend we're politically correct agenda that's permeating society is getting pretty unbearable lately. What's next, not buying a game because the developers listen to music that's different than I do? Pft.

 

[Travdelosmuertos]

Let's clarify one thing: Hate speech is hate speech. And what Orson Scott Card has said in the past is hate speech. And when a person writes essays like "The Hypocrites of Homosexuality" then you can be goddamn sure that those ideas will echo in everything he writes. Shadow Complex is not detached from that. It's about a radical left wing party rising against the conservative government. Seems harmless, right? No. Because Orson Scott Card believes liberals are ruining America by pushing for marriage equality. Here's some quotes from essays:

Spoiler

In this first quote, Card lumps ALL homosexuals in as being victims of mollestation or rape. Homosexuals now are almost a 10% minority in America. So, by his logic, one out of every ten people get locked in a room with creepy uncle Charlie. Maybe that's why every so often I get lost in Brad Pitt's eyes...

Now, there is a myth that homosexuals are "born that way," and we are pounded with this idea so thoroughly that many people think that somebody, somewhere, must have proved it...

The dark secret of homosexual society -- the one that dares not speak its name -- is how many homosexuals first entered into that world through a disturbing seduction or rape or molestation or abuse, and how many of them yearn to get out of the homosexual community and live normally.

It's that desire for normality, that discontent with perpetual adolescent sexuality, that is at least partly behind this hunger for homosexual "marriage."

They are unhappy, but they think it's because the rest of us "don't fully accept them."

Homosexual "marriage" won't accomplish what they hope. They will still be just as far outside the reproductive cycle of life. And they will have inflicted real damage on those of us who are inside it...

Spoiler

In this second quote Card outright displays his intolerance by advocating just that: intolerance!

Tolerance is not the fundamental virtue, to which all others must give way. The fundamental virtue is to love the Lord with all our heart, might, mind, and strength; and then to love our neighbor as ourself. Despite all the rhetoric of the hypocrites of homosexuality about how if we were true Christians, we would accept them fully without expecting them to change their behavior, we know that the Lord looks upon sin without the least degree of tolerance, and that he expects us to strive for perfection.

It's plain and simple, his views go farther than just on gay marriage. He's a bigot. Now, it's a hard thing to boycott a video game over these things and you can't really blame the development team, nor call them bigots, but I can however blame them for their blithe ignorance and indifference to Card's bigotry. I wonder if they'd have a sit down with Mel Gibson and create a game where "a radical zionist party tries to take over the United States government."

Edit: Just changed some misleading language.

 

[Travdelosmuertos]

Pretty stupid reason to not buy a game if you ask me. If everyone put their personal agendas first, nothing would ever get done. The pretentious let's all pretend we're politically correct agenda that's permeating society is getting pretty unbearable lately. What's next, not buying a game because the developers listen to music that's different than I do? Pft.

This isn't something like, "Oh this guy voted for McCain, fuck him and his game." No, it's more like, "This man is an unethical bigot whose participation in the political process is solely based on denying a person civil equality." It's not politics, it's ethics. Whether Card's anti-gay philosophies are portrayed in the game or not, everything he does is corrupted by it. He's a bigot. I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to be a bigot, I'm saying I have the write to chose whether or not I want to listen to his insanity or participate in it.

 

[Halbyrd]

To clarify, what concerns me is the tendency to take the fluff and act like the thematic underpinnings of the work aren't there -- I won't say it's a geek-culture thing per se, but geeks do it all the time. And, well, those unexamined thematic underpinnings are a moral message that the audience internalizes without questioning it.

That's not a geek thing, that's a people thing. Geeks are just people with a certain narrow interest-spectrum and a touch of social estrangement. I fully agree that internalizing moral messages without examining them is silly and stupid, but it's a rare person that actually has the presence of mind to step back and examine things thusly.

 

[tendo82]

I think you can enjoy someone's work separate from their own belief system as long as the work itself doesn't conflict with your own belief system. Take Ezra Pound: facist, anti-semite and one of the greatest poets of the twentieth century. Or look at Woody Allen - he married his step daughter - one of the most respected directors of our time.

The point is you should still be able to enjoy somebody's work, regardless of whether their personal beliefs jive with your own or not, as long as the work itself doesn't conflict with your worldview to the point that it hinders your ability to appreciate it. Otherwise you will be left with very little to enjoy.

 

[MrSnugglesworth]

Although I'm not sure how Gay Marriage would end democracy, that wouldn't stop me from buying the game. The fact that the game sucks would...

I agree with this man. Its not what the message is in a game. Because in all honesty, it is just a game. It could be a game about murdering seals and laughing at cancer patients I would get it because its fun. Not because of the oh so hilarious message its sending.

 

[joystickjunki3]

I commented on this thread awhile ago, and now that the topic has marinated in my think muscle for some time I think I can better nail down my feelings (should anyone care to read).

I've heard from several people that it's not that Card has a belief regarding the matter of gay marriage or sexual behavior in general, it's that he has come out and stated his belief and is currently one of the heads of a political lobbying group.

Okay, I get that some people may have a problem w/ his beliefs. I don't agree w/ them necessarily, but I understand his problems w/ them. Individuals are the products of their their environment, and Card was probably brought up in an what many would consider a very conservative and religious family.

Anyway, back to the thing about how "it's not about what he believes." If it's not about what he believes, then what is it? Because saying that it isn't about you having a problem w/ beliefs differing from your own is just sidestepping the issue. If you have a problem w/ the man's ideologies, then that's whatever, but at least be honest about it.

Would you have a problem w/ someone like Card coming out and encouraging a boycott on a game/book/album/movie/etc. whose contributing author/artist is pro-gay marriage? I wouldn't.

If you would, then I bet you can't even smell the shit on your knees.

All of this just serves to reminds me that I hate hypocrisy (otherwise known as, in this case, "hate-hating"). I'm also reminded of a quote that someone said (a friend of mine says that Alexander Pope said it, but I'm not real sure he would've said this).

The quote went something like this: "Beliefs are like watches. Everyone has them, and they all think theirs is right."

 

[Bigeyez]

It's not like Shadow Complex has anti-gay messages in it, as long as the game is good, and it doesn't directly insult your views you shouldn't complain.

This. The game has nothing to do with his personal views so wahts the issue? If we're going to go by the logic that just because someone anti-gay is associated with the making of a game then I'm pretty sure these people need to boycott just about every single game company because theres a good chance at least one anti-gay person works at every gaming company.

 

[Ultrajoe]

It's not like Shadow Complex has anti-gay messages in it, as long as the game is good, and it doesn't directly insult your views you shouldn't complain.

This. The game has nothing to do with his personal views so wahts the issue?

But it does, you see. It's based on his own fictional works, ones that support and carry his views on this issue. From what I can gather of the man, he wouldn't be caught dead missing an opportunity to do so.

 

[Alex_P]

This. The game has nothing to do with his personal views so wahts the issue? If we're going to go by the logic that just because someone anti-gay is associated with the making of a game then I'm pretty sure these people need to boycott just about every single game company because theres a good chance at least one anti-gay person works at every gaming company.

Maybe it's a matter of degree?
Having a few employees who like to make racist jokes is a far cry from your CFO being a Grand Dragon, for example.

Card's not just some programmer working for a salary. He's providing the game's setting, which would make him a major creative contributor (and he's got the fame and status to be more than just a hired writer). Now, as far as I can tell, that setting is being filtered through some other person who's doing the plot-writing, so maybe it got a thorough scrubbing and is free and clear of Card's baggage.

-- Alex

 

[thevegetarianzombie]

I really do have an ethical dilemma here, because all the other designers notwithstanding, I know that some portion of Card's royalties for this game are likely to be donated to anti-gay campaigns like Proposition 9.

It's a *fact* that if I by this game, I will be (in a teeny tiny and indirect way) financing something that I morally oppose.

My solution, something I reccomend everyone else strongly consider, is as follows: I'm going to drop a few dollars into the donation bucket of a gay rights group somewhere. I'm sure Card only gets a few pennies of game price (a full dollar if he's got a good deal) so by donating two or three dollars to the other side, I'm helping the good guys more than the bad. I'm poor, and I don't regularly make donations to such groups; I will be doing this specifically because of Shadow Complex.