"Sherlock" and "Elementary"

[Sixcess]

Intentionally not putting up a poll to avoid this being a straight up Vs thread... though it probably will be anyway.

As a brit and a lifelong fan of the Holmes stories I did a bit of eye rolling when I first heard about Elementary. Oh god, it's modernised and it's set in New York and Watson's a woman, and worst of all it'll be *shudder* americanised.

But I figured I'd give it a chance anyway - perhaps to see how bad it was - and to my surprise I found that not only is it really rather good, I much prefer it to the other modernised version - the BBC's Sherlock.

Alright, maybe not that much of a surprise. I thought Sherlock started well but became a little too enamoured of style over substance, as well as constantly winking at the audience with its obviously clever references to the original stories - especially in the episode titles. "Jimmy" Moriarty was a nice idea but didn't really work for me, and Steven Moffat can't write believable female characters to save his life, so Irene Adler turned out to be shallow, smug, flirty and hypersexualised in a blatant and yet curiously unsexy way.

All in all it wasn't bad as such - the lead performances are good and I found it very watchable, but for me it was never quite as good as it seemed to think it was.

So back to Elementary, which is far less faithful to the superficial details of the stories but somehow feels more like a real drama series and less like a homage/pastiche. Jonny Lee Miller and Lucy Liu are both excellent and if the individual episodes aren't as showy as its british counterpart the show as a whole feels more consistent, like its got something to say beyond new spins on old stories.

And the most recent episode was bloody amazing.

Spoiler: Massive spoilers for M

Spoiler: No, really, if you haven't watched this yet but intend to look away now

I loved the take on Sebastian Moran - british, ex-military, professional assassin and utterly fearless - it's entirely true to the original character but not in an obvious way. And given that anyone who's been watching the show has been waiting since episode one for the first mention of the name Moriarty I think they carried it off brilliantly, with the episode going off in a completely different direction from what I expected.

And the casting! My brain recoiled a bit at the thought of Vinnie Jones as Moriarty, but once I realised he was Moran it felt perfect. I hope we see him again

So what do you think? Is the world big enough for two modernised Holmes, or do you regard one or the other as a crime against Conan Doyle's creation? Or do they both suck because the only true Holmes is Robert Downey Jr/Jeremy Brett/Basil Rathbone? [delete as applicable]

 

[Dangit2019]

My problem with Elementary is that though the characters and actors work out pretty well, I can't get over how Sherlock isn't really that much of a brilliant genius. Instead, all of the other detectives around him are just mind-blowingly stupid.

In the episode that I saw, he walked into a heroin overdose scene, and declares that it was a murder. How could he say such a thing? Well, the guy didn't have any track marks on his arms, and nothing in his apartment indicated a regular heroin user.

Of course, the rest of the cops say it's open and shut, and generally do the adult version of covering their ears and yelling "lalalalalala" instead of, you know, LISTENING to the guy that they hired.

So, if anything, Elementary is an entertaining spectacle where a man with slightly above average IQ solves crimes in a world where every detective is an absolute moron.

 

[janjotat]

I haven't watched Elementary, but I have watched Sherlock. Unbelievable characters like Irene arent a problem for me since there are so many poorly written characters in video games. But I have to love Sherlock because of the way Sherlock acts, its just fun to watch him interact with other characters and the mystery itself.

 

[klown]

I haven't watched Sherlock, but I really like Elementary. They have a really good chemistry between the characters, and you actually get really attached to them.

My problem with Elementary is that though the characters and actors work out pretty well, I can't get over how Sherlock isn't really that much of a brilliant genius. Instead, all of the other detectives around him are just mind-blowingly stupid.

In the episode that I saw, he walked into a heroin overdose scene, and declares that it was a murder. How could he say such a thing? Well, the guy didn't have any track marks on his arms, and nothing in his apartment indicated a regular heroin user.

Of course, the rest of the cops say it's open and shut, and generally do the adult version of covering their ears and yelling "lalalalalala" instead of, you know, LISTENING to the guy that they hired.

So, if anything, Elementary is an entertaining spectacle where a man with slightly above average IQ solves crimes in a world where every detective is an absolute moron.

You say that, but the thing is, that's how people are in the world. You come across a person with a tons of heroin in their system, heroin next to them, with the overdose symptoms, what would you think happened? It's not just so much that Holmes is so amazingly smart in Elementary, but more that he looks at things from a very different point of view, and that's what makes the whole thing very interesting to me.

 

[redknightalex]

I haven't watched Elementary, but I have watched Sherlock. Unbelievable characters like Irene arent a problem for me since there are so many poorly written characters in video games. But I have to love Sherlock because of the way Sherlock acts, its just fun to watch him interact with other characters and the mystery itself.

Same here. I keep meaning to sit down and watch "Elementary" but I rather like Moffat's version of Sherlock. I can deal with/forget the other annoying parts of the show as a whole (Irene, some of the mysteries) because Sherlock, in this version, is just a smart ass. He feels and acts like the brilliant detective he should be, he has enough social skills to get along but not enough to really make friends, and some of the cinematography is really amazing to watch.

I may be missing out on a great show with "Elementary" except, well, the thing is I don't want to watch a show for a few years and then have THAT question show up (will they-won't they) as with all female-male leads. The producers say this won't be an issue but, come on(!), this is American TV! How could you possibly expect anything different?

 

[KingHodor]

I find Sherlock's portrayal of Holmes (and to a lesser extent Watson) to be superior because he's shown to be this deeply dysfunctional individual. Eschewing romantic love for a fanatic interest in crimesolving may have been considered admirable in Victorian times, but in today's world, we consider it rather morbid. Likewise, a "normal" person like Watson hanging around such an individual is going to raise some eyebrows.

In Elementary, Holmes' behavior is portrayed more as that of a cool outsider - and the cops all love him because he's a genius that does their job for them without expecting compensation.

The Holmes-Watson dynamic is also less interesting in the American show - Lucy Liu is simply Sherlock's babysitter, while Freeman hangs out with Holmes because despite treating him like shit, he also provides him with something that makes him stay at his side (granted, it seems this is about to change with the next season).

 

[Blunderboy]

I?ve not seen any Elementary and only a little bit of Sherlock, but to me, the finest adaptation of Holmes into a modern setting has got to be House. M.D.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

As an American, so far I'm much more of a Sherlock fan. A super fun show to watch.

Though I will say that the Moriarty character was a little too obnoxious for my taste.

 

[Daveman]

Yeah, I know Jonny Lee Miller is an awesome actor who is seriously underrated so when I saw Elementary was a thing I thought it could only be awesome, and Lucy Liu is just icing on the cake, and I was right. I still love Sherlock, but Elementary is cool too.

That said, fuck the last episode of Sherlock. Fuck it. It makes me very angry.

 

[lechat]

I find Sherlock's portrayal of Holmes (and to a lesser extent Watson) to be superior because he's shown to be this deeply dysfunctional individual. Eschewing romantic love for a fanatic interest in crimesolving may have been considered admirable in Victorian times, but in today's world, we consider it rather morbid. Likewise, a "normal" person like Watson hanging around such an individual is going to raise some eyebrows.

completely agree
i liked the fact that noone really trusted holmes, which to be fair is prolly more realistic considering the dude is just bat shit insane obsessed with crime
i also thought moriarty was one of the best evil super villain psychopaths ever written and what he done in the end to ensure his victory over holmes was pure magic

i haven't seen elemetary yet but i may be the only person to say i do not like lucy liu. there are so many good asian actors out there and lucy liu has always seemed to me as the modern equivalent of david caradene where the casting director has said "get me an asian actress!! but you know not too asian"

 

[Megalodon]

All in all it wasn't bad as such - the lead performances are good and I found it very watchable, but for me it was never quite as good as it seemed to think it was.

This pretty much sums up Stephen Moffat for me.

My problem with Elementary is that though the characters and actors work out pretty well, I can't get over how Sherlock isn't really that much of a brilliant genius. Instead, all of the other detectives around him are just mind-blowingly stupid.

In the episode that I saw, he walked into a heroin overdose scene, and declares that it was a murder. How could he say such a thing? Well, the guy didn't have any track marks on his arms, and nothing in his apartment indicated a regular heroin user.

Of course, the rest of the cops say it's open and shut, and generally do the adult version of covering their ears and yelling "lalalalalala" instead of, you know, LISTENING to the guy that they hired.

So, if anything, Elementary is an entertaining spectacle where a man with slightly above average IQ solves crimes in a world where every detective is an absolute moron.

You say that, but the thing is, that's how people are in the world. You come across a person with a tons of heroin in their system, heroin next to them, with the overdose symptoms, what would you think happened? It's not just so much that Holmes is so amazingly smart in Elementary, but more that he looks at things from a very different point of view, and that's what makes the whole thing very interesting to me.

But isn't a dectective's job to investigate such things, and notice when they don't add up, like in the example Dangit gave? While I haven't seen Elementary, this example sounds like another crime drama with a nonpolic officer protagonist that requires any actual police officers to not behave like police officers, otherwise there is no show. The BBC's Silent Witness was particualrly bad for this.

 

[Subscriptism]

I've watched all of Sherlock and a bit of Elementary. I have to say I much prefer Sherlock, Elementary just seemed a lot more shallow to me and I love Moffat besides.
One of the best things about Sherlock is that he figures things out and then withholds how he figured it out for a fair amount of time to keep you in suspense. Elementary on the other hand just explains everything straight off and I find that approach very unsatisfying.

 

[Sixcess]

In Elementary, Holmes' behavior is portrayed more as that of a cool outsider - and the cops all love him because he's a genius that does their job for them without expecting compensation.

In that respect Elementary is rather closer to the original stories. That said, the events of "M" have the potential to rather change that dynamic, although it remains to be seen if they'll run with that rather than reverting to the status quo in the next episode.

The Holmes-Watson dynamic is also less interesting in the American show - Lucy Liu is simply Sherlock's babysitter, while Freeman hangs out with Holmes because despite treating him like shit, he also provides him with something that makes him stay at his side (granted, it seems this is about to change with the next season).

Again, the most recent episode has really shifted that dynamic. The nature of their relationship has changed, and I'll be interested to see where it goes from here.

I may be missing out on a great show with "Elementary" except, well, the thing is I don't want to watch a show for a few years and then have THAT question show up (will they-won't they) as with all female-male leads. The producers say this won't be an issue but, come on(!), this is American TV! How could you possibly expect anything different?

...but I don't think it'll go that way. Oh, it seems inevitable, but it's hard to see how they could go down that overly well worn route in the case without being utterly untrue to the characters. Sherlock and Joan do have a definite rapport, but it's very far from will they/won't they. Thankfully.

i haven't seen elemetary yet but i may be the only person to say i do not like lucy liu. there are so many good asian actors out there and lucy liu has always seemed to me as the modern equivalent of david caradene where the casting director has said "get me an asian actress!! but you know not too asian"

Well, Carradine wasn't asian at all so I'm not sure there's any valid comparison to be drawn. In any case Lucy Liu's role in Elementary is the kind of part I think most 'minority' actors dream of, in that her ethnicity is completely and utterly irrelevant - it's been referred to in very minor asides twice and that's it. She's not 'the asian' Watson, she's just Watson.

 

[wizzy555]

I'm British and think they did a good job with "Elementary" too.

A minor criticism of Sherlock:

Spoiler

I think they killed off Moriarty too quick, I would have liked him to lie in the background pulling strings longer.

BTW, in Elementary, I'm "calling" that Addler is still alive.

 

[lechat]

Well, Carradine wasn't asian at all so I'm not sure there's any valid comparison to be drawn. In any case Lucy Liu's role in Elementary is the kind of part I think most 'minority' actors dream of, in that her ethnicity is completely and utterly irrelevant - it's been referred to in very minor asides twice and that's it. She's not 'the asian' Watson, she's just Watson.

minorities

?I?m not exotic; I?m asian. There are more of us than there are you, so statistically, you?re the exotic one.?

carradine was known for taking the role in kung fu off of bruce lee because he was the white mans asian. now while i'll admit lucy liu isn't exactly white she is about as close as you can get to white while still being asian

 

[SonicWaffle]

As an American, so far I'm much more of a Sherlock fan. A super fun show to watch.

Though I will say that the Moriarty character was a little too obnoxious for my taste.

Yeah, I found him annoying. He was doing all that evil shit, but he just wasn't threatening because he was camper than Christmas. It was like trying to picture Alan Carr as a supervillain.

 

[TJC]

I?ve not seen any Elementary and only a little bit of Sherlock, but to me, the finest adaptation of Holmes into a modern setting has got to be House. M.D.

No. Go away. >:C (you're right, of course, but still)

I've only watched three episodes of Elementary and it's definitely a good show but I don't see why it's "sherlock holmes". With the BBC series, it's obvious and Cumberbatch's Sherlock really looks this close to snorting yards of cocaine. I LOVE the relationship between the mains and I even adore Irene Adler in her overly-slutty way. Whereas Elementary reminds me of a mixture between Monk (barely functional genius with babysitter) and Castle (two attractive leads with inevitable sexual tension... yes, I know they said they wouldn't go down that road but still... ). It's watchable, downright enjoyable but I can't shake that feeling that the creators of Elementary chose the 'brand' sherlock because they didn't have faith in their own show and didn't think that the characters could stand on their own without the cultural background knowledge of Doyle's stories.

 

[Sixcess]

minorities

Y'know, I put that word in inverted commas for a reason, after thinking over whether to say 'minority' or 'ethnic'. Regardless, I'm not going to twist my posts into knots trying to work out what the current acceptable phrasing is.

carradine was known for taking the role in kung fu off of bruce lee because he was the white mans asian.

It was the 70s. I'd be hard pressed to think of any mainstream tv drama of that era that had a non-white (if that is a 'better' way to put it) lead actor. Would it be done now? No, not a chance.

now while i'll admit lucy liu isn't exactly white she is about as close as you can get to white while still being asian

Are you serious? Both her parents were immigrants to the US of chinese descent, so I'm not sure how much more 'authentically' asian you'd like her to be. "Not exactly white"? Why don't you just call her an Uncle Tom (or whatever the asian equivalent is) and be done with it? This kind of reverse racism is ridiculous, and as irrational as actual racism.

 

[SonicWaffle]

In Elementary, Holmes' behavior is portrayed more as that of a cool outsider - and the cops all love him because he's a genius that does their job for them without expecting compensation.

In that respect Elementary is rather closer to the original stories.

From what I remember at least, Sherlock is closer to the originals with regards to this. For the most part (though there were exceptions) the police detectives disliked and resented Holmes. He'd show up, basically call them idiots, and do their jobs better than they could before swanning off again. There's also the fact that Holmes clearly sees himself as being above the law to an extent - remember that criminal (afraid I can't remember the specific story, I'm afraid) who he caught and let off because he thought the crimes were justified? Nobody is going to like a guy like that even if he is helping them out. For all that he likes to talk up his emotional detachment, both original and modern Holmes are a pretty smug bastard

i haven't seen elemetary yet but i may be the only person to say i do not like lucy liu. there are so many good asian actors out there and lucy liu has always seemed to me as the modern equivalent of david caradene where the casting director has said "get me an asian actress!! but you know not too asian"

Well, Carradine wasn't asian at all so I'm not sure there's any valid comparison to be drawn.

The show Kung Fu was written as a Bruce Lee vehicle. He was just a bit too Asian, so the role was instead given to Carradine, who apparently lookied a little bit Asian while still being white enough to be acceptable to audiences of the time as a hero.

Presumably the comparison @lechat is trying to draw is that Lucy Liu, while genuinely Asian, is seen as a "safer" and more white-friendly Asian than most. Don't ask me why, because I don't really see it

 

[TJC]

I'm British and think they did a good job with "Elementary" too.

A minor criticism of Sherlock - I think they killed off Moriarty too quick, I would have liked him to lie in the background pulling strings longer.

BTW, in Elementary, I'm "calling" that Addler is still alive.

Frankly, if Sherlock survived that jump, Moriarty has somehow survived as well. Probably only blew out some unimportant stuff or he was only the twin brother and the real Moriarty is watson's psychologist or some mind-blowing tweest. Also, DUDE SPOILERS D:<