Should Classes in Philosophy be taught instead of History

[Chiasm]

I'm suggesting that if you're forced to make budget cuts in this economy, and your choices are to cut a gifted/talented program vs. a disabled students program, you spend your scarce resources where they will do the most good. In a perfect world we get both, but this is not a perfect world.

Wouldn't it make more sense to raise taxes by a very low amount to pay for both programs? Growing up in San Bernardino,CA where there was no programs for disabled students. It was frustrating at times to get any kind of real learning other then your deaf so sit up front with the blind kid. I would hate to see that spread throughout the entire nation.

Plus how would you pick who got into the gifted or talented programs? Through good grades or by doing standardized tests,IQ tests? It seems it would be a hard to pick out the top 10% of students in 7th grade and not rely on the flawed standardized testing; Which I agree is heavily flawed and makes schools needlessly test focused.

 

[the Dept of Science]

I think I can stand ignorance of philosophy more than I can stand ignorance of history.

I can deal with people not really having an idea who Descartes, Plato or Neitzsche are. I couldn't deal with someone who didn't know who Churchill, Napoleon, Ceasar or Henry VIII are.

This is coming from someone who does philsophy for about 1/3rd of my degree modules. In fact, sometimes I'm ashamed at my own ignorance of history.

 

[SimuLord]

I'm suggesting that if you're forced to make budget cuts in this economy, and your choices are to cut a gifted/talented program vs. a disabled students program, you spend your scarce resources where they will do the most good. In a perfect world we get both, but this is not a perfect world.

Wouldn't it make more sense to raise taxes by a very low amount to pay for both programs? Growing up in San Bernardino,CA where there was no programs for disabled students. It was frustrating at times to get any kind of real learning other then your deaf so sit up front with the blind kid. I would hate to see that spread throughout the entire nation.

Plus how would you pick who got into the gifted or talented programs? Through good grades or by doing standardized tests,IQ tests? It seems it would be a hard to pick out the top 10% of students in 7th grade and not rely on the flawed standardized testing; Which I agree is heavily flawed and makes schools needlessly test focused.

It would make more sense to raise taxes to pay for essential public services, but try telling that to the taxpayers. I have always said that the biggest problem with America is Americans---they want unlimited government services but they expect tax cuts to go with them, then they complain about deficits! Said Winston Churchill: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute chat with the average voter."

 

[BlumiereBleck]

Hell no, History and philosophy are two different things. You want a philosophy class go to college. Religion should be allowed practice in schools thou but thats a debate for the religion and politics thread eh? ;}

 

[Kiefer13]

Instead of? No. Alongside? Most definitely.

 

[Geekosaurus]

"History is written by the Victors"

I know General Shepard says this. Though I fear he may not have come up with it.

I don't think history is taught to us just so we don't repeat it. I think people should have an understanding of important events that have occurred in the past. Because when I hear questions like 'what is the holocaust?' it makes me loose faith in humanity.

 

[CarpathianMuffin]

History just strikes me as a more interesting subject than philosophy, though I do see where you're coming from.
Philosophy teaches more free thinking than history does, simple as that.

 

[lacktheknack]

No. Unbiased history should be taught. It's difficult, but can be done.

 

[slarrs]

Ehh. Maybe incorporate Philosophy a little bit. Personally I think Geography should be more of a concern. It probably doesn't matter that much what year Stalin took power. It does help to know say, where countries are.

 

[OManoghue]

Philosophy is a worthless class, I'm sadly stuck in the hopeless Quebec CEGEP system which is like day care for older kids, and we're forced to take 6 totally pointless classes in our 2-3 years in our program. History, as much as I loved it, teaches you the mistakes and triumphs of the past, but isn't nearly as important as Math. So it should really be an option, like becoming a philosophy major and pondering the ethics of begging for change.

 

[Acting like a FOOL]

Here's a crazy idea. How about we focus on the Seven Classical Liberal Arts, teach critical thinking and meaningful discourse, and turn out better citizens rather than just teaching mindless automatons to regurgitate information to pass standardized tests?

Oh. Right. Because obedient little consumers and slaves are the real goal of American education---the ruling class needs the masses to be docile and stupid so they can line their own pockets without arising too much suspicion.

And the commoners are just as well to go along with it, because "my kid is an honor student, yay!" The parents are even dumber than the kids. Someone needs to get R. Lee Ermey into maternity wards to yell at new mothers "YOUR CHILD IS NOT SPECIAL! SHE IS JUST A LITTLE MAGGOT WHO WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING UNTIL AND UNLESS SHE PROVES OTHERWISE!"

Then stick that demotivational poster that says "Not everyone gets to be an astronaut" with the picture of the order of fries on the wall of the kindergarten, bring back gifted and talented programs for the best students and fund the fuck out of them, at the expense of "special needs" classes for retards if you have to (how much money do you really need to spend on someone whose ceiling is McJanitor? We've got unmotivated smart kids in astounding quantity), and teach those kids to question any authority that would assert its mastery over them. Unless they're cute girls who go for dominant guys---gotta protect my brothers

Anyway, my point is this---if a kid's too dumb to grasp philosophy and history, get him into trade school and teach him how to do good, honest, hard work that he will find rewarding (this is Mike Rowe's cause celèbre in his MikeRoweWORKS program). And don't stigmatize the guy who fixes your car.

And the intellectual kids? The ones who will go on to colleges with higher admissions and graduation standards now that the "mommy and daddy said I need to get a degree" smacktards have been weeded out of the cultural zeitgeist as a side effect of this reorganization? Let them create and reward them well, whether they are in business, arts, or sciences.

well you lead and we'll follow

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I'm suggesting that if you're forced to make budget cuts in this economy, and your choices are to cut a gifted/talented program vs. a disabled students program, you spend your scarce resources where they will do the most good. In a perfect world we get both, but this is not a perfect world.

Wouldn't it make more sense to raise taxes by a very low amount to pay for both programs? Growing up in San Bernardino,CA where there was no programs for disabled students. It was frustrating at times to get any kind of real learning other then your deaf so sit up front with the blind kid. I would hate to see that spread throughout the entire nation.

Plus how would you pick who got into the gifted or talented programs? Through good grades or by doing standardized tests,IQ tests? It seems it would be a hard to pick out the top 10% of students in 7th grade and not rely on the flawed standardized testing; Which I agree is heavily flawed and makes schools needlessly test focused.

Well I got deemed a gifted student by a test. To tell you the truth I don't quite remember what test it was because I took it in the 3rd grade. But from what I could tell the kids in my school's gifted program did seem like they were gifted. Not to say that they were smarter than everyone else, but that they seemed to learn things quicker and could excel easier when they put their minds to it.

And I admit that disabled student should get programs to help them learn especially if its something like deafness or blindness. But in my school we gifted students didn't get that much resources. This might just be someone complaining despite the fact that they had it good, but I still think that if gifted students were given a little more resources and attention they could really excel in their given scholastic interests.

 

[Lyx]

Shouldn't we instead be teaching students to make there own decisions based on there own logic, maybe using history as a reference point, talking to them about what they would have done instead of what actually happened, Or are such tragic events such as the Holocaust too black and white that we should enforce the idea on students that there is no middle ground on any genocide that would be deemed acceptable.

You forgot an important premise: Logic - another topic that isn't trained in school.

The only thing before logic that people should understand, is perhaps reading and writing. Then after you got language and logic (INCLUDING an intuitive understanding dammit!), you can start to build on those basics, adding maths, philosophy, etc.

 

[Icarion (aka Stockholm)]

Philosophy should be tught instead of english classes. And of course there still should be writing classes like poetry and story writing but no straight english. Philosophy has plenty of english elements and can be coupled with history to help a student form there own perceptions about life

 

[Nifty]

Here's a crazy idea. How about we focus on the Seven Classical Liberal Arts, teach critical thinking and meaningful discourse, and turn out better citizens rather than just teaching mindless automatons to regurgitate information to pass standardized tests?

Oh. Right. Because obedient little consumers and slaves are the real goal of American education---the ruling class needs the masses to be docile and stupid so they can line their own pockets without arising too much suspicion.

And the commoners are just as well to go along with it, because "my kid is an honor student, yay!" The parents are even dumber than the kids. Someone needs to get R. Lee Ermey into maternity wards to yell at new mothers "YOUR CHILD IS NOT SPECIAL! SHE IS JUST A LITTLE MAGGOT WHO WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING UNTIL AND UNLESS SHE PROVES OTHERWISE!"

Then stick that demotivational poster that says "Not everyone gets to be an astronaut" with the picture of the order of fries on the wall of the kindergarten, bring back gifted and talented programs for the best students and fund the fuck out of them, at the expense of "special needs" classes for retards if you have to (how much money do you really need to spend on someone whose ceiling is McJanitor? We've got unmotivated smart kids in astounding quantity), and teach those kids to question any authority that would assert its mastery over them. Unless they're cute girls who go for dominant guys---gotta protect my brothers

Anyway, my point is this---if a kid's too dumb to grasp philosophy and history, get him into trade school and teach him how to do good, honest, hard work that he will find rewarding (this is Mike Rowe's cause celèbre in his MikeRoweWORKS program). And don't stigmatize the guy who fixes your car.

And the intellectual kids? The ones who will go on to colleges with higher admissions and graduation standards now that the "mommy and daddy said I need to get a degree" smacktards have been weeded out of the cultural zeitgeist as a side effect of this reorganization? Let them create and reward them well, whether they are in business, arts, or sciences.

I agree with parts of this, it's pragmatic if nothing else. But your lesser-abled student bashing runs some what counter to your argument about equality. I'll let you off the hook on the grounds that you got a bit carried away?

 

[captainwalrus]

High school-level history is written by the victors.

From a civic/nationalistic standpoint, history classes in primary/secondary school are important for disseminating a nation's historical identity to the next generation. Instead of having a bunch of kids growing up wondering why they're a certain nationality, and what differentiates their nationality from other nationalities, they become firmly entrenched in the historical narrative for their particular people. This is a reason why history classes below the college level are so concerned with giving "facts", rather than cultivating critical historical analysis.

 

[Nifty]

Also, Philosophy is about as useful in life as being stabbed. You want philosophy? Go read some Confucius. I hear he has some good stuff.

Are you trying to be funny? Philosophy is more than just "cogito ergo sum". It's everywhere you look; politics, religion, science, ethics...the list goes on.

 

[Hollock]

Why not teach both?