Should ethics restrain science?

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twistedshadows

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Apr 26, 2009
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Human experimentation is only okay if the person who is being experimented on knows the entirety of what is involved (especially the possible risks) and still fully agrees to the experiment.

Experimenting on people by force like the Nazis were doing is definitely not acceptable, no matter how great the scientific implications are.
 

A random person

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Apr 20, 2009
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Yes. Science is good because it advances humanity, and using ethics makes sure you don't do something that hurts more than it helps. Stem cells fine, taking people hostage and injecting them with chemicals not fine.
 

Jamous

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Apr 14, 2009
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Meh. Certain ethics are necessary for survival, especially now, so THOSE ethics should; the human rights etc.

Gormourn said:
Up to a point. People should NOT be stolen out of their beds to do crazy experiments on them, but I could see volunteering working. Or for those barbaric countries still practicing death penalty, the criminals could be secretly used for horrible experiments on the same day as the execution =P

Nah.

Ethics shouldn't really restrict much though. As little as possible. But we should also aim for, you know, not doing things against people's own will.
Hits the nail on the head absolutely perfectly.
 

Xrysthos

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Apr 13, 2009
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I personally believe that science shouldn't be bound by ethics, because within science lies the key to humanity's survival. There should naturally be restrictions, but not as strict as what we see today. As long as it's open and honest, and not a "government secret project", then there shouldn't really be any restrictions. One could test medicine on clones, for example. Some people might object, but it's for the greater good. I know that said line probably has been said before pretty much any ethically disgusting scientific experiment ever done, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true.

Within this question lies a dilemma - science can provide what we need to survive as a species, but at what cost? Will technological advances lead us to a reality much like '1984'? Everything is monitored by tracking our biometrics, our lives are confined and we are deprived of free will. It's a possibility that the advance of technology and science brings with it. But what are the options? The only way to feed a growing population, to take care of pollution and ensure our survival apart from through advanced science and technology is by drastically decreasing the amount of people on this planet. Find an ethical way of doing that, and you'll be awarded the Nobel prize posthumously. So it seems that if we neglect the option of mass extermination of humans, drastic steps forward in science are the only way. And how can one let ethics decrease the chance for our survival as a species?
 

Dealin Burgers

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Cpt_Oblivious said:
Everyone's ethics are slightly different. Science will progress as there will always be people who will have looser morals than others and push the boundary.
NoMoreSanity said:
No, ethics are a detriment to humanity and should be banished so science can prosper. I'd like the world to be like Rapture, except without the compromising of values and exploitation of the market.
A Rapture-like city / country would work wonders for the world. I pick Antarctica as the host continet, it's only home to scientists and penguins right now.
Rapture didn't end up too well though. Still, unrestricted scientific research could create many interesting things...
 

savandicus

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I think bioshock was a very nice example of exactly what would happen if ethics didnt retrain science. I have no doubt that science wouldnt improve faster, but at what cost?
 

Therumancer

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My answer for the most part is "No".

The reason why I say this is that once you start making moral and ethnical arguements it becomes nearly impossible to avoid science. There are always going to be risks, dangers, and moral questions to anything signifigant that you try and achieve.

Today you'll find that people are very technophobic, I see it as a part of liberalism to a great extent, though conservatives are just as bad in their own way (and on specific issues). "Techno Horror" has taken off over the years, and it seems that a lot of fiction out there revolves specifically around the "Frankenstein" complex of people playing god and then losing control, or massive revolts by technology, or whatever. It also seems that there are some intentional efforts by techno-phobes to spread this kind of message by taking stories like Asimov's "Robot" novels and producing movies like "I, Robot" that have nothing to do with the very pro-tech, pro-robotics slant of the original books. Then there is of course the whole "Terminator" thing among others.

Basically it's all Doctor Frankenstein, with little Reed Richards in sight (to use fictional examples).

The game "Bioshock" also seemed to be a criticism of unrestrained technological development, a point I might add that I got from it more than it "zapping" Ayn Rand because if that was the intent the people doing the game know very little about the subject.

The flip side to all of the "Techno-horror" is of course humans (tool users) to cease progressing, or at least at any noticible level, then inevitably running into a crisis that we can't deal with (which might very well be something like the death of our sun due to the sheer passage of time as we're locked on the planet).

When you get down to it, pretty much ANY development, especially major developments, is going to be against someone's morality or code of ethics. What's more there is always going to be a danger despite the nessecity. As a result scientific progress should be seperated entirely from morality. I'm fine with moralists making criticisms, as long as they have very little abillity to stop the scientific progress as a whole.

The one caveat to this of course comes about due to "human rights". I for example do not think that NASA should be allowed to run around and test radiation on people they abduct in the streets, or the CDC to infect random people with diseases to see how they spread/progress and test cures and such.

I do however believe that it is reasonable to do the things above (and more), but that the people involved should either be volunteers, or condemned prisoners or the like.

As I've said before, I have little issue with going to some guy on Death Row and agreeing to let him go in exchange for his participation in a potentially lethal or crippling experiment (ie if he survives it). As long as we kept the deal with survivors (who are probably going to be crippled) it would be cool by me.

As monsterous as he was, even guys like Dr. Mengele can be sort of "Defended" by pointing out that he worked with condemned prisoners. The Holocaust simply providing him with a vast number of condemned prisoners. To an extent his research can apparently be seperated from The Holocaust, and rapidly becomes about the morality of what he did to obtain the results he achieved (which could not have been accomplished any other way).

It's a touchy issue, for sure, but as messed up as it is when discussing science to an extent you have to judge the needs of the many in the long term against the needs of the few in the short term. Nobody wants to be one of those "few" (nobody says "Mommy, I want to grow up to be a Death Row inmate" either amazingly enough). But in the end humanity as a whole NEEDS that science.

It's sort of like in ethnics class, you discuss concepts like "Morality by the numbers". It's easy to argue against as long as the numbers are small enough, however it becomes less so as the issues become bigger. This is why the wise do not envy people who have to make the hard desicians.

In the case of scientific progress, even if I was to say kidnap 5,000 people (the population of a small city) and subject them to horrendous, and torturous experiments, but in the end saved the lives of hundreds of billions of people, or even infinite people (if say my research lead to the development of a cure all, immortality, or space flight), it cannot easily be said that I'm wrong. The short term survival of that comparitive handfull not being worth the fate of humanity as a whole. Heck when it comes to five thousand people it's probably worth far less.

Of course keep in mind that I *AM* against such random "rounding up" of experimental human cattle (as the one moral exception). The point is that it's not an obvious right or wrong situation for anyone with half a brain.

The reason why I'm against it though is that in practical terms not all theories (and experiments) pan out. You allow that, and your not guaranteed results. You might wind up with 5,000 mutilated corpses, and small library of snuff flicks that were intended to be scientific records of the experiments. Indeed for every success your going to see many such failures so it becomes difficult to set policy allowing it without basically depopulating the countryside every time some PHD has a big idea. :p


>>>----Therumancer--->




>>>----Therumancer--->









>>>----Therumancer--->
 

paragon1

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NoMoreSanity said:
No, ethics are a detriment to humanity and should be banished so science can prosper. I'd like the world to be like Rapture, except without the compromising of values and exploitation of the market.
You seem to be forgetting that people aren't perfect, and scientists are people. Have you considered that what happened in Rapture might have happened BECAUSE of a lack of ethics? Ethics weren't created for giggles, and too many people seem to forget that.
In short, lets not sell our "souls"(or equivalent concept) for the sake of knowledge (unless someone wants to volunteer for a dangerous experiment?)
 

Valiance

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Jan 14, 2009
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Of course not.

Look at how good it ended up being in Bioshock! ;P

But seriously, no.
 

sms_117b

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Oct 4, 2007
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Study and theory can only get you so far.

War and acts of scientists during war capitalise on the lack of ethical treatment given to prisoners of war. Regardless of their rights.

When the next major world war breaks out science will make many breakthroughs especially in medicine, but will again demonise itself. It's a vicious cycle
 

NeedAUserName

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Aug 7, 2008
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Scientists presumably all have different ethics. So scientists should be allowed to do whatever (within the law and other parameters), and be allowed to refuse to participate in any experiment should it compromise their ethics.
 

Iggy Rufflebar

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Mar 26, 2008
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They shouldent, but they do. Which is a real shame, there is so much we could find out and achieve if only the people would stop spouting rubbish like "can't do that because you're playing God"
 

Isalan

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Jun 9, 2008
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I can see a case for ethics standing in sciences way, to make sure science doesn't do anything too dim (such as create genetically engineered squirrels with lasers for eye's and a pure, bitter hatred of all humans), but the thing that pisses me off is when religion stands in the way of science. The idea that "playing God" is a bad thing is pretty poor. If there is a God then lets face it, he's not exactly playing it right himself.

Probably holding the controller upside down to be honest.
 

traceur_

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Feb 19, 2009
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ExodusinFlames said:
Science + Religion Alliance!!!
Or for the same result, take some antimatter and matter and shove them together.

OT:

ethics should restrain to a point, I think stem cell research and biological engineering should go with bugger all restraint because they're so useful, mostly I want them to go for it because I want robot arms.
 

Agayek

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Oct 23, 2008
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george144 said:
I've been looking into the Nazi's experiments and though it was of course very ethically unsound, but it did allow the doctors to uncover many interesting things. So I began to think, should ethics stand in the way of science?

Because if morality and ethics were thrown aside, who knows what could happen. Perhaps with more invasive surgery and radical treatment a cure for cancer or Aids could be found?. Looking at the bigger picture it could even be good for humanity as a whole, for example what if 1000 people die to find a cure that saves 10 Million.

So my question to you, should ethics stand in the way of scientific advancement?
Ethics should restrain science, but only in one major way: No unwilling test subjects. If people volunteer to be experimented on or whatever, there's no problem, but kidnapping people and cutting them apart to see what happens crosses the line.

As long as all parties involved are willing (and in the case of animal test subjects only use those specifically bred for testing), there isn't really an ethical issue from my perspective.

Edit: From reading the rest of the thread, I'd have to clarify by "ethics" I mean basic, individual human rights remaining inviolate. It is never permissible to violate the fundamental rights of all people to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Anything else is fair game though.