Should Every Game Allow You to Choose Your Gender?

Aiddon_v1legacy

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y'know, that is the thing I've noticed; even when games put in female protagonists as the main focus...they don't really DO anything with them as a female. They don't really explore female dynamics or feminine traits all that much, even ones written by women. For example, take Faith from Mirror's Edge; her gender is MEANINGLESS to the game's narrative and nothing would change had she been a man. Same thing with Nariko is Heavenly Sword. Lara Croft, check. Jade in Beyond Good and Evil, check. Switch their genders and nothing changes. Heck, even Odin Sphere (a game I adore) can be debated whether or not gender is important. I think the two games I CAN name where gender is a central them are Parasite Eve and Metroid: Other M. The former is due to it dealing with mitochondria, and the genetic makeup for that is passed down through the female side of a genetic line (seriously, mitochondria in sperm cells are destroyed during conception. Neat stuff). The latter of course is due to Samus having long-standing personal issues due to not HAVING a mother and yet having played one to the Baby. And of course then you have everything with MB and Melissa, Mother Brain, etc. You can also make an argument for it being about daughter-father dynamics. Still, those are the only two games I can think of where gender or feminine topics are central to the character or the plot. Really shows we still have a long ways to go.
 

nuclearday

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Smilomaniac said:
Apart from that, it's likely the market and the lack of enough people to be actually interested in more of these characters.
You'd think with all the cries and angry shouts there'd be someone jumping at the chance to make something to cater these people, so why haven't we seen anything yet?
I think there's also something to be said for just how long it takes to make a top-shelf videogames these days. When you're looking at, what, 3-4 years' development time for the most part I'm not surprised if the industry isn't shown to be terribly quick to respond to things like this...

That said, female protagonists had a pretty good year, I thought. If not "perfect," I think there's signs that things are improving at least.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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theNater said:
You almost had it here, but then went somewhere else. The problem is not the relative abundance of white male protagonists in games. The problem is the unexamined and fairly widespread assumption that white male is "normal", because it carries an implicit belief that non-whites and women are "other". That's the root of all those "they're trying to take our games away" fears.

The frequency of white male protagonists is a measurable symptom of that problem. Worse, it's a self-reinforcing symptom; somebody carrying that assumption is not likely to find it challenged in today's game market. Having a better gender mix among protagonists would at least help encourage people to recognize that male and female are equally "normal", which is a step in the right direction.
I also think part of the reasoning that people like it when "being a woman has nothing to do with it" is female characters can sometimes get bogged down with romance or "babez" <-cause every woman wants a baby

I guess that veers into the territory of "gendering" characteristics (bravery-masculine ect)


Aiddon said:
y'know, that is the thing I've noticed; even when games put in female protagonists as the main focus...they don't really DO anything with them as a female. They don't really explore female dynamics or feminine traits all that much, even ones written by women. For example, take Faith from Mirror's Edge; her gender is MEANINGLESS to the game's narrative and nothing would change had she been a man.
I know I made a thread on it but I don't think there's anything wrong with just having them....there

you could just as easily genderflip Cole McGrath, Aiden Peirce and the like....yet no one questions weather or not they deal with issues pertaining to "men"
 

rgrekejin

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Aiddon said:
The former is due to it dealing with mitochondria, and the genetic makeup for that is passed down through the female side of a genetic line (seriously, mitochondria in sperm cells are destroyed during conception. Neat stuff).
Not the genetic makeup - the mitochondria themselves are physically passed down from mother to offspring. As you pointed out, sperm mitochondria are lost in fertilization, and the only mitochondria present in the cell are those from the egg. Due to their endosymbiotic origin, mitochondria replicate independently of the cells they're in, and get split more or less evenly during cell division. So, all of your mitochondria are clonal replicates of the initial handful your mom gave you. I actually just covered this with my students last week.

Now go call your mother. All of you. :)
 

IamLEAM1983

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BayouStalker said:
I would love to have played a Bayonetto where a guy's clothing is actually his beard, and he becomes more and more nude the more he ramps up the damage.
Something tells me "Bayonetto" would be Geppeto's sadomasochistic cousin...

Yes, that's my takeaway from the entire discussion, I can burn in Hell, now. :D

Seriously, though; I think diversity never hurts. It's not so much a question of it being needed for sociopolitical reasons or because of the need to prop up a sense of versimilitude, but more a matter of what you want to play as, plain and simple. Unless the plot of a game EXPLICITLY calls for the player to be of a particular gender and ethnicity, these two concepts could very well be fairly mutable. The only thing that's stopping most devs is the amount of work needed.

Take the first Mass Effect, for instance. I wonder how the development time-table would have been affected if there'd been no FemShep on offer. Or, inversely, no ManShep, to be fair. How many months would BioWare have saved on, if that had been the case? How expensive is to to get someone like Mark Meer or Jennifer Hale in front of a camera to spout off some weird science-fictiony words in a way that makes the hypothetical players care?
 

Vault101

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upon a second reading this isn't quite as agreeable as I thought it was


[quote/]Specifically I don't agree that video games are misogynistic just because there are certain tropes they tend to fall back on a lot. It is true that there are an awful lot of game stories where the protagonist is male and the female character exists either to be rescued or to die and give the protagonist motivation. We'll call that the hero-damsel narrative. I don't think that hero-damsel enforces misogyny. After all, the protagonist, the male, is the one who has it worst. He's the one who has to put himself at pain, and even die, over and over again, in an endless cycle of torment, for the benefit of the women.[/quote]

Yahtzee this sounds like an MRA rant against "the draught" I'd expect better from you

EDIT:I mean seriously! has anyone ever actually asked a woman if that's how they read it? if they enjoy this kind of shit?

[quote/]But I digress. Okay then - let's say that every game should let you pick your gender as long as their gender isn't hugely central to the plot. Wait, that sounded weird. Games in which gender doesn't matter should let you choose your gender? If the gender doesn't matter, why should we care? Maybe the game developer just wants a character to be a generic cipher, so they make them a white male, because that's what they themselves are, and it's what generic means to them. To demand diversity for characters that are essentially blank placeholders is to put way more thought into it than the creator did.[/quote]

if it "doesn't matter" then give me a fucking choice...YOU said yourself that there was nothing to be gained by having Korvo blank

if I have to play as a cipher then let me be female, I don't need justification for it, if you can't do then then [b/]don't make them ciphers[/b]
 

totheendofsin

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I don't think every game should allow you to choose your gender, however in games where it truly doesn't matter the choice should be allowed. Of course at the end of the day it should always be the developers choice whether or not to put in the extra work to put in a female character
 

VondeVon

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This article seemed pretty damning of Yahtzee's own gender-bias/ignorance/what have you, that is echoed by people who like the status quo and and don't see a problem with it.

Yahtzee's weak excuse that the protagonist has it worse for having to die over and over (ignoring, I suppose, the women who just plain die and don't get second^10 chances) is one that tries to parry attention from the main issue: That the protagonist, the leading character, the one who gets to run and fight and forge their own path (within the constraints of the game) and ultimately win, is so often (and so unnecessarily) male.

Male is still the default. And that's not a bad thing, just... sometimes boring. Especially when it's within a game's ability to make the protagonist's gender optional. What's bad is that women default as *victim* or *prize*. Why can't Angry Man #76 be angry because his brother and nephew/son were murdered/kidnapped instead of wife and daughter for once? Or his parents? Or his gay lover? Sure the player might not be gay but why should that stop them identifying with the protagonist? After all, girls don't even share the protagonist's *sex* or *gender role* and yet they've been managing just fine.
 

Jake Martinez

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As much as I applaud Yahtzee for trying to be reasonable, at the end of the day it's not going to matter very much because the forces of stupidity arrayed against reasonable people seem to be vast and deep and they keep propping up a small subset of people who are trying to make being outraged at video games their career.

It's amazing the amount of, well, pure and unadulterated B.S. that the gaming community will support, I'll give you a good example:

Just this last March a grad student from Willamette college presented at GDC - the topic? Sexism in gaming (of course). Her research? A survey filled with loaded questions that got only 334 responses back. This is such a small sample and with such obvious reporting bias that it barely qualifies for asking people in the car if they want to go to McDonalds or Wendys. Certainly this wasn't peer reviewed, because it's not actually research, it's a fucking survey.

Yet, for some reason, this person gets space at GDC and they get taken seriously and then the same B.S. gets parroted by a sympathetic and utterly uncritical and frankly stupid gaming media.

I have an aunt, a kindly old dottering shamble of a woman who is always giving me various assorted rocks. She calls them "healing crystals". My response is to thank her kindly, then put the rock in the garden because at the end of the day it's just a fucking rock.. Just like how calling a rock a "healing crystal" doesn't actually give it any healing properties, calling a video game sexist or misogynistic doesn't actually make it either.

But certainly, it won't stop people from attempting to incite moral outrage for either page views or "consulting fees".
 

Imp_Emissary

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Ninjamedic said:
Hmm, a reasonably worded piece putting forward a point of view without attacking the people who disagree. WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT IT HUH AMIRITE?

I've set the timer to see how long this spirals into a shitflinging match.
Pfft. xD When has anyone got mad at Yahtzee for doing anything?

This other worldly place you hail from is fascinating my Boxing Medic Ninja frined. ;D
Grach said:
Seriously, what's the point of bringing out the issue of gender if it isn't even an issue in the game? I frankly don't see the practical difference between, say, a male, female or trans boss in Saints Row (the characters don't even notice if you change sex in the middle of the game). Like Covarr says, gender can improve a game and bring out interesting dynamics, but putting it in the spotlight is not necessary (in-game or otherwise).
:D
Yahtzee actually gave a good answer for this on the first page.

"But it hardly matters if a choice of gender is merely aesthetic and means nothing to the game, because it can still mean something to the audience, and all the cultural attachments and biases they have brought with them."

Saints Row as an example gets a lot of love from it's fans for letting them customize their characters to the degree they allow.

It doesn't really change the story much except for them saying different lines every so often, depending on the voice, but while it's doesn't have much meaning to the story.
Sorry I couldn't remember who it was that talked about how the themes of Saints Row were pretty tied with the player character "figuring out who they were", but I think you can get the gist of that idea and how it relates to the customization.

He's a different video about the 4th game that's pretty good too. :)
Not what I wanted, but good.

It does however let the players put their own meaning into their characters.
Rob Rath talked about this too a bit ago when he mentioned how making his Shep in Mass Effect Hawaiian. Didn't change the story in game at all, but added to the narrative for him.

That all said, Yahtzee makes good points why it isn't always needed.
Though, I'd say we'd get more good out of more different characters than bad. Like Yahtzee said, some games have importance behind the sex/race/whatever of the character, and different stories sometimes call for different protagonists.

It won't make any game automatically better, but it would be nice to see more often.
 

Aaron Sylvester

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BayouStalker said:
I would love to have played a Bayonetto where a guy's clothing is actually his beard, and he becomes more and more nude the more he ramps up the damage.
Me too!

But unfortunately such a game would flop due to lack of sales/interest/demand and end up making a loss for the devs/publishers.
 

DrOswald

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StriderShinryu said:
"But it hardly matters if a choice of gender is merely aesthetic and means nothing to the game, because it can still mean something to the audience"

And this is really the key point. Sure there are many games where you could say just a visual gender swap would have no real tangible impact at all, but that's no reason not to offer a gender option (or, as in the case of the Zelda games, to throw in a gender swap once in a while). The gameplay may not be changed at all, and that's cool. Maybe the story itself won't change at all, and that's cool too. But what about the perspective of the player? Why not open the game up to even just a little more appealing to someone who doesn't your standard Hetero White Dude, especially if admittedly the actual game will remain almost entirely the same?
Oh, there are all sorts of reasons not to offer a gender option. The most obvious is that it costs money. But lets talk about one that is rarely discussed: Brand identity.

The brand identity of a game is often directly tied to the protagonist. Mario, Samus, Link, Mega Man. There is no real reason any of these characters need to be the gender they are. Gender has no real importance to their character, at least not in their early entries. But could Metroid have built half as strong a brand identity around Samus if Samus's gender was player determined? Would Mega Man be as iconic as he is if he was competing for space with Mega Woman in every game?

You're asking developers to dilute the brand for something that absolutely does not matter.
 

Karadalis

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Rutskarn said:
Karadalis said:
Xsjadoblayde said:
At best this article will be ignored by the believers of the patriarchy and at worst they will try to scream him down just like they do with everyone else who doesnt share their view that there is a patriarchiumati at work in the games industry whose goal is to bring back the 1920s
Want me to prove you wrong?

This article's a good sign, because it's not falling behind a standard--something easy to do when you're in the majority. It's putting forth clear arguments that a rational person would have. I know this, because these are arguments I myself put forth five or six years ago.

In the interim, what I've learned about context, patterns, and the perspective of people unlike me have lead me to conclude these arguments are misguided. I'd be happy to discuss that with him, but he (pretty wisely) doesn't make a habit of discussing things with internet strangers.

I'm seeing some real strawman representations of feminists in gaming lately. Sometimes I think it's easier for people to make parody copies of buzzwords they don't understand and have never tried to than it is to actually listen.
Want me to prove you wrong?

This article has so far 4 pages of replies.

Look at other articles that are more controversial and you will see the difference. We have threads here that have over 500 replies, look at jim sterlings video about SJWs and ganondorf.

This article will go unheard by the crowd who constantly yells "muh mysoginy!" without realising that they are using this word without understanding what it means.

Yes Yathzee wrote a very good article, very balanced and looked at both sides without loosing himselfe into pandering one way or another. And thats exactly why no one will give it the time of day and forget about it.

Also Strawmen feminists? As far as i know there are no feminist characters in any games currently. Just because its a female character doesnt mean its a feminist... or do you mean the people behind the games? In wich i have to reply that it would be nice if the gaming press would concentrate more on actuall female developers in Dev studios and less about professional victims that beg for donations.
 

Ariseishirou

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I hate this argument. If gender is purely cosmetic, the question is not "why then bother?" it's "why not bother?". If it doesn't actively detract from the gaming experience, and has the potential to add to it for an underserved portion of the population who'd like to see themselves in the leading role more often, what possible argument could you make against it? Aside from AC's "resources" argument - for which they were (rightly) taken to the cleaners for grossly exaggerating just how much in the way of "resources" that would require.

Personally, I loved that R6V2 let you pick Bishop's gender, even though everything she said and did was identical (honestly I preferred that to having some NPC make a big production about her being a ~lady~ in a man's world, or some other patronizing nonsense). I like that CoD's MP lets you do that now, too. Oh no, they made the hit boxes the same! Well, some women are as tall as the average man, including yours truly, so so what. From the 50/50 male/female avatar ratio in most lobbies, I'd hazard a guess that I'm not alone. Honestly, if you're not going to make your character's gender important, a selectable option should be the default, every time. Shepard, the Chosen Undead, the Courier - these would all have been greatly diminished if you were forced into the role of the Blandly Generic Dark-Haired 30-Something White Guy in them.
 

ExDeath730

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Mcoffey said:
Thanatos2k said:
Mcoffey said:
Thanatos2k said:
Mcoffey said:
Thanatos2k said:
If you want your main character to be bland, have little personality, and sabotage the narrative of your game - by all means let the player choose the gender.

Only Mass Effect has been able to have a strong customizable character, and that's due to both good writing and excellent voice acting. No other game comes close.

If it's a game that's more about the content than the story like Skyrim then a blank customizable character is fine. But if you want your game to be narrative driven, a customizable character sabotages this goal.

Better to have a game like The Witcher where your character is already a character and then they let you choose stuff than a game where the main character is so characterless that even their gender can be switched without any impact to the story.

Also Yahztee, you got DANGEROUSLY close to addressing Gamergate!
Clearly someone's never played Saints Row...
No, I haven't. So good, there's two examples. The rest of my words remain true.
Do you have an example of a customizable main character interfering with the narrative?
White Knight Chronicles.
So two games indicating it works fine, and one that doesnt. Any others?
And would the story of the Witcher really change much beyond pronouns if Geralt was a woman?
Geralt could not have the same personality as a female, or it simply wouldn't fit. The relationships with other characters and the relationship dynamics and motivations wouldn't be the same, unless you're going the Dragon Age 2 route and making every character inexplicably bisexual. Come to think of it, use Dragon Age 2 as another example.
Would you care to elaborate? What about Geralt's personality is exclusively male?

And for the record, out of the nine companions in Dragon Age 2, only four were bisexual (Five if you count Tallis from Mark of the Assassin, and then it's still only half of the companions).
Ok, i will have to answer this one...

First in The Witcher...There are no female Witchers, there is a lore reason you learn in the first game, but i'm not remembering now. So yep, to play a game called The Witcher as a Witcher, you would have to be male. The "female type" are the Sorcerers in that lore, but the thing would be different, since even mistrusted a sorcerer is not really viewed as badly as a Witcher, who is basically a useful pariah. And changing the character would impact the game, specially the ending of the first one, since you can choose the Human path, the Scoia'tel Path...Or the Witcher path. The second part of the crux is that you HAVE to take sides, and that is something that Witchers hate to do, so, it adds to the drama, Geralt being a cynical, sarcastic and selfish character just adds to the drama...Since he really don't care about someones agenda...It's hard to when everyone hates you already.

And about Dragon Age 2...I'm bissexual, and...Really? "Only four?", look, most people are "heterossexual" or "homossexual", and DA2 had one gigantic flaw in Anders. Besides his character being butchered from the fun Mage of DA:O Awakening, there's the problem that...He was a womanizing dude, really, a lot of his stories are about how he got into trouble for one or another girl. One or another bissexual character? Fine, Isabella could have been, and Fenris as well, the others? Don't know, Anders was pretty heterossexual to me in the first game expansion, why not keep him like this and make the prince a gay option? Full on gay option, without the need to appeal to both sides.

Much better, and it woudn't reek of bullshit for someone like me.
 

Rebel_Raven

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First, allow me to focus on a few points.

After all, the protagonist, the male, is the one who has it worst. He's the one who has to put himself at pain, and even die, over and over again, in an endless cycle of torment, for the benefit of the women.
Well, the obvious answer would be to create more women so males don't have to shoulder the burden so often! ... no, there's no sarcasm, there.

Yeah, 'damsels in distress' tend to be shallow characters without much agency, but who has less agency than the protagonist? The one that can't so much as lift a finger if the player doesn't press a button telling them to?
I've said it time, and time again, NPCs have zero agency. None. Their only agency is to react to what the player character does, frankly. An innkeeper in a game will often never, ever, ever leave their post, no matter what. Unless you wanna argue that it's what they want to do to be statuesque beings that only rent to the player character while they're on screen, then they have zero agency.
Meanwhile, lets, say, Link, is off to save Zelda (who's not all that important to the legend of zelda as she's been absent in several LoZ games), but he's in no way programmed/forced to do that. Smash pots, fish, faff, run into a wall for an hour. While Link may lack a brain, the player that fills his role, and takes Link up as an avatar in that world can go do what ever, and often no 2 Links will go through their quest to save Zelda in the exact same way. Each as special as a snowflake.
NPCs, on the other hand, don't get this option. This isn't Reboot, or Tron, here. NPCs don't live lives off screen that we're unaware of, though some games are decent in giving that illusion.

The plot revolves around the player character. The quest will not get finished without the player character. An NPC might help, but the responsibility of saving whatever will revert right back to the player character once the NPC helps out, usually by flipping a switch, or giving an item, then they're done.

Said player character is often the most capable being on the entire planet because no NPC is usurping the role of finishing the game. That's power, imo.

Player Characters have the true power of the game, and they have the agency to use it as much as they can as the player fills the player character with their will.

While there's only 22% women in the gaming industry, according to a recent Game Informer magazine, there's not really much of anything stopping guys from making female characters, be they PC, or NPC (Except the rest of the gaming industry, really. Can't imagine when the public got to shout at a developer to have gender changed), since Lara Croft, and, well, pretty much every female character in gaming was created, scripted, but thankfully not voiced by a man.

Books, and movies, too, make the excuse of men being unable to write women a bit of a joke as most movies are written by guys, even Rom-Coms. Sure, some might have problems, heck, most might, but it's hardly an excuse.

If it's so problematic creating a female character, then, well, hire an expert. Women, someone who can write for them, etc. One of the most important parts of getting women in the industry is them getting hired, and hired for the right reasons.

I mean a lot of games are in fictitious worlds where weapons, armor, and magic can more than make up for anything. Relying on biological weakness seems kinda like bullshit when fireballs incinerate an enemy with ease, and metal protects people all the same, and a blade can cut regardless of who wields it, or a gun can splatter someone regardless of who fires it, and super human strength, and durability's the norm.
They might have basis in a real world, but game physics/mechanics/etc. trump all of that, IMO.

On to the question that is the title.

No. We should have stories where it's focused on the gender of the character. The problem is, it's a bit to common that it focuses on men.
Like Yahtzee says, there's almost no games out there where being a woman is relevant. Males get treated better than that.

But if there's no point in the gender one way, or the other, then why not have both genders be available? Make your work a bit more welcoming in exchange for it being shallow? Of course its optional, but expecting people to like it when you only pick one gender when the plot doesn't call for gender, is not going to go well.

I mean, I was sitting out in public playing Senran Kagura (I gotta stop doing that), and into the building walks a family... with kids.
One of those kids, a boy, wanders up to me, and leans on me, and looks at my 3ds screen, and says "You're playing as a girl? I like playing as boys."
I was annoyed... not that he had a preference, rather that he invaded my personal space, and it was kinda awkward.
I don't really care what a person prefers to play as, I'm all up for the having the opportunity, just as much as I want the opportunity.
Honestly, it's as simple as that some times. We just want to play our own gender, or the opposite gender. We just want to.
If you wanna fault me for wanting to play my own gender (female) a little more often than we get the chance to, especially in games where gender matters, then sod off! :p
 

TheUnbeholden

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Yahtzee Croshaw said:
I know that it's very easy for me, a white dude, to say that about a white-dude-dominated industry. But I don't buy the argument that biological similarities like race or gender strongly affect whether or not the player identifies with a character

And with good reason. However I cannot identify when playing as a female, because I don't see myself as the character but merely looking through her eyes. Its not that big a deal but I cannot fault people for thinking this way. And this really doesn't have anything to with inclusivity by saying that you have trouble identifying with the opposite gender because we can play as either. So its a non-point.

End of. But I guess you already knew that... or atleast I hope so.