Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?

[ForumSafari]

This wasn't a case of feminism, this was a case of someone being addicted to being a victim and using it as justification for being a prick.

Having said that, this is feminism's fault. Feminism may at its' core be a good thing but it has allowed itself to be co-opted by the kind of people you never want in your group. Feminism is afraid to tell women they're not feminists, even when they're fighting for female superiority, femsplaining how men feel or experience life or when they plain just don't like men. Feminism needs actual leadership, direction and a manifesto that can actually be presented to people. Moreso it needs the power to tell a lot of women that no, they're not helping and yes, it'd be swell if they went away please.

 

[Norithics]

I honestly don't see how This OP would fall under that fallacy.

He's saying that feminism is devalued when belligerent people use it to bludgeon whatever triviality they choose to take umbrage with(you're a dick for being better than me at this game because sexist). Not only is it overplayed, not only is it overplayed by people that don't really know what they're talking about, but it's overplayed by people that don't really know what they're talking about over utterly trivial matters that they're outright wrong to pick a fight over in the first place.

That may be what he meant to say, but it isn't what he said. Instead he took it as a grand sweep of "grievances about gaming devalue feminism." That's what he said. Which is exactly that fallacy, and is wrong.

But is it?
Is it really?
Me and my video game collection disagree, we've managed to avoid this "rampant" sexualisation and objectification 9 out of 10 times, before we even knew anything about feminist issues and video gaming.

I'm afraid you really haven't; you've just managed to not even detect it because it's so normal.

Just as a little example let's have a look at gamespot's list of games being released this week.

Yes, let's.

* = No humanoid female characters
! = Actually decent, no kidnapping or sexy outfits

Killer Is Dead [https://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=950&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=%22Killer+is+dead%22+characters&oq=%22Killer+is+dead%22+characters&gs_l=img.3..0.18291.20298.0.20533.2.2.0.0.0.0.92.183.2.2.0....0...1c.1.26.img..0.2.182.cFpr_6GxEcQ]
Rayman Legends [http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m45qrtfFOW1rn1jhjo1_500.jpg]
Final Fantasy XIV Online: A Realm Reborn [http://imgur.com/RbopJJ7]
Madden NFL 25 *
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Out of the Shadows *
Castlevania: Lords of Shadow Ultimate Edition [http://castlevania.wikia.com/wiki/Marie_Belmont]
Lost Planet 3 !
Etrian Odyssey IV: Legends of the Titan [http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire3/2de8714a5d4f51f4420483e0b2fbb0be1353527612_large.jpg]
Arcania: The Complete Tale*
Driving Simulator 2013 *
One Piece: Pirate Warriors 2 [http://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/OPPW2_JF13_Trailer.jpg]
Disney Planes *
Sweet Fuse: At Your Side !

I've had a quick look at the summary for and screenshots of all those games and none of them had immediately obvious sexualisation or objectification issues.
Now it's just guesswork. I'd need to play all those games to know for sure, but can you look at that list and honestly say you think it represents your statement accurately?

As you can see from the list... yeah. It kinda does, actually. But you know what, though? I think it's fine that they have it. It's okay that they can contain those things. That doesn't trouble me. What does trouble me is that you- probably being very representative of the average person and having no malice whatsoever- didn't even notice. Out of 8 games that feature female characters, two of them pass that criteria while the rest don't, and that's exactly the point- it's so normal you don't even see it. That's why this is always taken to be some huge overreaction- it's invisible to most people. It's been so very completely normalized that it doesn't even stick in your mind. Aaand it kinda doesn't count if they just don't have women in them; the percentile when they do appear is still heavily slanted. It's a little bit worse, actually, because it makes it seem like they only get wheeled out for the fanservice and kidnap bait (which is the grievance).

That, to me, is the real issue.

 

[Zhukov]

Snip

Reread my post. I edited in an answer to your next question before I read it, because these conversations are so predictable I've taken to rolling the dice on what the next step will be. It's not a 100% game yet, but I'm getting better. IRL it's a lot easier to pre-empt this shit.

Spoilers: We resolve nothing. You walk away thinking feminism can't be irrelevant and toxic because that's what you thought when you woke up this morning, and I walk away thinking that it definitely is because of the exact same thing. And also because silly little girls like in the OP happen a lot and get away with it because people are still largely too scared to stand up to womens bullshit because they don't want to be called misogynists, and as a culture we aren't quite ready to hold women accountable to male standards because old habits die hard.

Uh huh.

And surely it has occurred to your clairvoyant and transcendent mind that perhaps this oldest-story-in-the-book dynamic is what the terrible, toxic feminists want to see changed, or at least diversified. Personally, that doesn't strike me as an unreasonable desire.

Also, your spoiler is missing the bit where I recognize your avatar, notice a pattern with your posts and start to reach unflattering conclusions.

 

[Maitresse Zem]

yes. go back to your mancave.


also, I study film and literary sciences and they are all about feminism and psychoanalysis. If I cannot write feminist essays about games I will have to return to reading books, and since I cannot read for as many hours as I can play videogames since I have the attention span of a Muppet, I will end up here, at the forums, to spew my dark, feminist rage.

and it will be all. on. you.

/feminist out

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm for women equality.

Then it seems like the obvious answer should be yes. Unless that was a superficial statement that predicates what is effectively a "but," much in the way one might say "I'm not a racist, but black people and gaming don't mix."

And if you don't understand terms like "patriarchy," please don't use them to further your argument. It has the opposite effect if you know what the word means.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Actual feminism absolutely has a place in gaming, because there is a problem with the way women are treated and represented in this industry, and if people can't see that then they're either not looking hard enough or they're lying.

There is no way people don't see how some female characters in games like Dragon's Crown are problematic; no way they don't see a problem with all-male focus testing and developers having to fight tooth and nail just to get a female on the cover of a game; no way they don't understand the difference between sexual fantasy and power fantasy. I'm sorry but I don't believe you when you say these things.

'ZOMG Anita Sarkeesian blocked teh comments! That's against the First Ammendment and a YouTube video IS America!' Well I'd probably do the same if I was threatened with murder and rape and called anti-Semitic slurs because I had the audacity to make some videos. I wonder how many rape threats the guys who started the 'Tropes vs. Men' Kickstarter received? Because I bet it was zero.

What you described is not feminism, it is just some random woman being an arsehole. It is not the same, and it is certainly not an indictment of the feminist movement.

I don't see how Dragon's Crown is problematic at all. They use caricatures of stock types. Thus why the warrior looks like he is wearing power armor or has a absurdly tiny head. As for sexual vs power fantasies, the only way sexual fantasies are demeaning but power fantasies are fine is if we assume that sex is a evil dirty demeaning thing, which I refuse to do.

 

[sweetylnumb]

Just want to express my appreciation for all the reasonable men in this thread who recognize that females wanting some variety and not just a tits and Ass parade is perfectly reasonable and that women are a valid audience that should have their opinions considered.


Seriously, thanks.

Im so tired of threads of guys saying "WELL DA FACTS SHOW DAT WOMEN ONLY PWAY FARMVILLE AND NLY MEN PWAY GAMES SO WHO CARES" or "SEXISM IS NOT IMPORTWANT BECUASE FWIST WORLD PWOBLEMS"

Its guys like you that give me hope for humanity.

Sincerely Every female gamer ever

 

[Something Amyss]

Perhaps what I should have said is, "Why is it that those are the default forms that lazy writers consistently fall back on?"

Personally, I'd go one step further, and ask why so much of it just happens to involve treating women like crap?

If I might bring a "real-world" example, Rand Paul claims to be a champion of minorities but does not see any issue in minorities voting. For some reason, the fact that minorities are disproportionately challenged or the new voter laws require identification that blacks and hispanics just happen to not have is all a coincidence or something, because none of it translates to wrongdoings or racism. sure, the end result is black people having to fight harder to do the exact same thing as whites, but there's no underlying problem.

So, why are women so heavily targeted in these tropes in the first place?

yes. go back to your mancave.


also, I study film and literary sciences and they are all about feminism and psychoanalysis. If I cannot write feminist essays about games I will have to return to reading books, and since I cannot read for as many hours as I can play videogames since I have the attention span of a Muppet, I will end up here, at the forums, to spew my dark, feminist rage.

and it will be all. on. you.

/feminist out

I'm not sure the satire in this will be read by a community who thinks that feminists are out to destroy gaming as we know it.

I've had

a quick look

at the summary for and screenshots of all those games and none of them had immediately obvious sexualisation or objectification issues.

So you basically skimmed some information and didn't immediately see anything and that disqualifies the subject?

 

[Hazy992]

I don't see how Dragon's Crown is problematic at all. They use caricatures of stock types. Thus why the warrior looks like he is wearing power armor or has a absurdly tiny head.

You honestly don't see a problem with characters like the Sorceress, a character with breasts twice the size of her head in a skimpy outfit, sashaying around to accentuate every jiggle? Or female NPCs that are there to be nothing more than damsels, lying in suggestive poses and wearing next to no clothing? You don't see how that is problematic?

As for sexual vs power fantasies, the only way sexual fantasies are demeaning but power fantasies are fine is if we assume that sex is a evil dirty demeaning thing, which I refuse to do.

That's not what it is at all. The reason sexual fantasies can be problematic when power fantasies usually aren't is intent. Characters like Kratos, Marcus Fenix or Nathan Drake are supposed to make the player feel like a badass when you play as them, whereas with a lot of female characters they're seen as nothing more than objects designed to titilate the player.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Kinda of a non sequitur isn't it? Boil it down feminism wants equal treatment of males and females. For the most part I see equal treatment sure there expectations but most of them are cliche poorly written story based stuff. I don't even pay attention to who, be it race,creed or gender, in what role anymore you have A and you have B. A dose this B dose that.

As for Dragon crown arguments is the Sorceress or Amazon the one being rescued? Their designs are stereotypical their proportions are whack but so is the warriors. So lets denounce all the pretty males and female caricatures ...oh wait no one wants to play as a fat ugly character.

 

[Something Amyss]

There is no way people don't see how some female characters in games like Dragon's Crown are problematic

By themselves? No. In fact, I say let the man-children have their "juvenile power fantasies." I just think we need other types of games, as well.

And both of those sentences provide the problems I do see. With the fanbase, you see.

One review didn't like the game as much as they did and called it an unapologetic juvenile power fantasy, and the entire[footnote]or a significant portion of[/footnote] DC community was up in arms screaming about persecution. Mention diversity, and how maybe we could have a few games with women who aren't spank material, and the community is up in arms about how the evil feminists are here to take their games away, enslave them in the kitchen, and replace the Superbowl with a 6 hour broadcast of The View. Lara Croft actually looks kinda human now, and it's some big evil PC agenda thing.

Oddly enough, the patriarchy doesn't exist, but the evil feminazi conspiracy is a real thing and ruining the lives of men on a daily basis.

 

[Dansrage]

No.

I want to play videogames.

I don't want politics, feminism, cis-privilege, gay marriage, immigration reform, gender politics, transsexual acceptance, anti-war, pro-interventionist, abortion, PeTA or Greenpeace in my entertainment.

Take your soapbox, for whatever purpose, however valid or petty your complaints, and take it somewhere where it doesn't impact my unrelated hobby.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I think that there is a fundamental problem with the premise of this post. To start with, feminism should absolutely be a part of gaming but this is largely a matter of perspective, character and narrative above all. It is rare that you see an interesting female character in a game, and even more rare when they aren't a shallow archetype or, far more common, acting in a symbolically male role (though on this latter point there is nothing particularly wrong with such a course and it is more a sign of the fact that so many video games center around actions traditionally dominated by men - combat of all sorts, religion, etc). If nothing else, many of the problems with how female characters are handled are difficult to resolve until women are a significant force in devopment and publishing.

But, the action of a female gamer in a game is not really an example of feminism in any sort. That is a personal reaction to a slight (whether it was real or imaginary isn't particularly important) between individuals. This exact scenario is nothing more than trolling by one side or another and to attribute such base behavior to some larger social movement is folly. Using as an example an extreme reaction that may (or may not) come from someone within a movement to ask a broad question about said movement is a fallacy.

 

[Norithics]

Just want to express my appreciation for all the reasonable men in this thread who recognize that females wanting some variety and not just a tits and Ass parade is perfectly reasonable and that women are a valid audience that should have their opinions considered.

It's nice to be appreciated.

You know what's really funny about this, though? By taking this position, I'm often characterized as being against cheesecakey displays and the like. In reality, I couldn't be more the opposite; I create that kind of content myself. But even from this position, I can see very clearly that de-normalizing this sort of thing would be the most beneficial for everybody.

As it stands, it's just kind of a crutch. Writers and artists using crutches is never beneficial to the consumer. When you kidnap a princess out of creative bankruptcy or make a character emphasize their sex appeal without considering if it's within the purview of their personality to do so, it makes for a poorer experience. Making people more self-conscious of these crutches would encourage better writing, better character designs, and- benefiting people like myself- they'd only do the fanservice route if they really mean it, which means those creative teams will group together (instead of inserting their work into something unrelated for a cynical focus group dollar grab) and deliver a better product as well. There'll be less fanservice on the whole, but when it does happen it'll be so much better quality- and special for occurring. It's win/win, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[carnex]

Don't make this a new "what feminism is" thread... we already had few and we are not going to solve what's the real head of something that has 1000 of them and everyone of them is real in some way.

To repeat myself yet again. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion and everyone has right to express it. Likewise everyone is free to see your opinion as BS and rip you a dozen of new ones. But the moment you tell me to shut up, you started the war and made me forget that you have any rights what so ever.

 

[Hazy992]

There is no way people don't see how some female characters in games like Dragon's Crown are problematic

By themselves? No. In fact, I say let the man-children have their "juvenile power fantasies." I just think we need other types of games, as well.

And both of those sentences provide the problems I do see. With the fanbase, you see.

Well of course they have every right to exist, if people want to play erotic video games or whatever that's absolutely fine. One of the problems I have is that when I'm playing what is supposed to be a legitimate, serious game and this sort of thing still happens. I'm trying to play as the goddamn Batman, but when Catwoman has a skintight suit open down to her navel and starts talking in that suggestive voice it just drags me right out of it. It's just stupid, degrading and an insult to my intelligence and the intelligence of everyone else playing. It has no reason to be there.

It's difficult to even find other options as well. Is it so much to ask that a video game treats women like fucking human beings and not just eye candy? I'm not 14 anymore, I'm not going to buy a game because you promised me tits.

EDIT: And I should have added of course, that the way it makes a lot of women feel is a problem that should go without saying. When a female gamer doesn't have any sort of outlet in this medium then there's a problem.

 

[orangeban]

You seem confused about sexism in gaming. No-one's arguing that a group of men are sitting around cackling, all "And then we shall make women weak in our games! Mwahahaha man I hate women."

Yes, it's mostly lazy writing. The fact that a lazily written female character is just a damsel in distress or a hyper-sexed love interest or a super-duper masculine tough girl and those are the only options is the problem, that's the manifestation of patriarchy and sexism.

Casual, unintentional sexism is still sexism.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

I don't see how Dragon's Crown is problematic at all. They use caricatures of stock types. Thus why the warrior looks like he is wearing power armor or has a absurdly tiny head.

You honestly don't see a problem with characters like the Sorceress, a character with breasts twice the size of her head in a skimpy outfit, sashaying around to accentuate every jiggle? Or female NPCs that are there to be nothing more than damsels, lying in suggestive poses and wearing next to no clothing? You don't see how that is problematic?

As for sexual vs power fantasies, the only way sexual fantasies are demeaning but power fantasies are fine is if we assume that sex is a evil dirty demeaning thing, which I refuse to do.

That's not what it is at all. The reason sexual fantasies can be problematic when power fantasies usually aren't is intent. Characters like Kratos, Marcus Fenix or Nathan Drake are supposed to make the player feel like a badass when you play as them, whereas with a lot of female characters they're seen as nothing more than objects designed to titilate the player.

No, I don't. Sure it's silly, but as I pointed out, the game is meant to be. As for sexual fantasies being meant to titillate the player, my response is "And...?" Why is sexualisation bad? Characters serve purposes within stories, and eye candy can b nice. Feminism seems to accept the premise that sex is dirty and evil, and that thinking sexual thoughts about someone takes away their value as a human being. I disagree. Sex is fine, and being shouldn't be viewed as demeaning or dishonorable. Feminism always seemed a bit odd to me, in that it has both groups complaining about slut shaming, and saying women should be able to wear whatever they want wthout society judging them for it, and groups saying a character from a game wearing a bikini is evil oppression. Then again these may well b seperate groups.
Also, Escapist, scrapt the video ads on the side of the forum, they cover my text box and I can't see wha I am tyoing.

 

[carnex]

I'm trying to play as the goddamn Batman, but when Catwoman has a skintight suit open down to her navel and starts talking in that suggestive voice it just drags me right out of it. It's just stupid, degrading and an insult to my intelligence and the intelligence of everyone else playing. It has no reason to be there.

You are making a wear argument there. Catwoman is that sort of character, a seductress when it suits her. As far as I know she is neutral character (I'm no comic buff, and really laugh at superhero comics) and uses every trick in the book to get her way. Seduction is one of them.

That said, are you Batman? If you are then tell me how the hell did you pull off not getting shot in the face all this years. And If you aren't Catwoman isn't talking to you.

P.S.
Has anyone considered the fact that in this medium story often gets in the way (Duck Tales Remastered I'm looking at you). So when you need quick emotional tie you put woman in danger and everyone freaks out. In real life we appreciate female life much more so they put her in danger. If it was just some bloke off the street I would be first to assume that gang has some "domestic dispute" to work out.

As for sexy clothes, unless we are talking BlodRayne type deal there she is purposefully fetishied or character theft like Lara Croft (god damn it, why did they create terminator out second one? Can't we have normal female character?) it is perfectly normal thing. Look at how women dress during summer. Only thing I can say about that is for women and girls to own their sexuality. not only will they be more self-confident, guys will like them more (and girls if they are into them)

 

[jehk]

OT, feminism can be used to help tell a story, but should it be a measure of the medium? Fuck no. The only measure of video games should be, "Is this a good video game?" of course what that means is really up in the air.

Treating women equally (as characters and players) isn't a metric of a good video game?